Talk:Biblical Hebrew

wrong correction

MathKnight, you've mis-corrected /aSer/ -> /aZe/, and /Se/ -> /Ze/

So firstly, this is not a characteristic of early biblical hebrew vs. later. (using the definite article), this was not not the intention, please read the SAMPA page for how to read the phonetic transcription.

Second, if you intend to write 'הזה', /aZe/, can't be a way to transcribe it, again see the SAMPA page for that.

The intention, as originally written, was the switch from /aSer/ (אשר ) to /Se/- (ש-) , please take more care to ensure your corrections make sense. (for example the sound /Z/ probably doesn't even appear in biblical hebrew).

Anyway, as it is probably more appropriate, I'll moved the examples from SAMPA to Semitic translitaration

Note, that /aSer/ marks a 'such that' clause, while /ze/ marks 'this' (demonstrative pronoun), I understand the confusion

Script

Charts should show the ancient script, of paleo-Hebrew along side the adopted Aramaic script.

Israelites

"... Hebrew languages as spoken by the Israelites,"

Actually, Biblical Hebrew, usually refers to the language of the Bible, and thus the Kingdom of Judah, while evidence the rest of Israel, show quite a different dialect, can this be inserted into the article using words that would not upset too many people?

No really it seems only, variation of pronunciation existed among the tribes, even as in later times the Galileans had a manner of speech distinct from the Judeans.—Compare Mt 26:73; Lu 22:59. (Jg 12:4-6) This, however, is no basis for claiming (as some have) that the Israelites then spoke separate dialects. They all read the same Hebrew: Which the Bible indicates that the ancient Israelites were a literate people. (Numbers 5:23; Joshua 24:26; Isaiah 10:19) But critics disagreed, arguing that Bible history was largely transmitted by unreliable oral tradition. In 2005 this theory suffered a blow when archaeologists working at Tel Zayit, midway between Jerusalem and the Mediterranean, found an archaic alphabet, perhaps the oldest Hebrew alphabet ever discovered, incised on a piece of limestone.

Dated to the 10th century B.C.E., the find, say some scholars, suggests “formal scribal training,” a “sophisticated level of culture,” and “a rapidly developing Israelite bureaucracy in Jerusalem.” So, contrary to the critics’ claims, it appears that at least as early as the 10th century B.C.E., the Israelites were literate and would have been able to record their history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 05:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Template

The "Jew" template should be replaced by the "Jewish languages" template. Hasdrubal 21:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion

Could someone add a suggestion for a good introductory text to learn Biblical Hebrew from?

I'm sure many users would find this invaluable, particularly if it is tried and tested.--Poray 14:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently learning Biblical Hebew (at University on an official course) from Practico & Pelt, Basics of Biblical Hebrew Grammar (2001, Zondervan) ISBN 0-310-23760-2 --Sithemadmonkey 18:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I studied biblical Hebrew for 3 years using Menahem Mansoor's Biblical Hebrew - Step by Step ISBN 0801060419 it is inexpensive and very useful. I recommend it especially for someone not taking a class because it lends itself well to independent study. It places less emphasis on grammar and more on vocabulary and reading. Meswallen (talk) 23:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

what does these words mean

Could someone help me to find out what these words could possible mean. I do not know what dialect this is.

The words are - arabatia abriskia

Please help me if you can.

Thank you

LOL! The word is English! I'm guessing Arabatia abriskia is the scientific name for a certain animal, a kind of small "lamp shell" that looks like a clam but isnt a mollusk. Here's an incomplete taxonomy that mentions Arabatia as the animal's genus name, so there must be a second species name, and no doubt it will prove to be: abriskia!

• kingdom Metazoa (= animal)
• — Epitheliozoa
• — Triploblastica
• — Eutriploblastica
• — Neotriploblastica
• — Eucoelomata
• — Phoronozoa
• phylum Brachiopoda (= "lamp shell")
• class Articulata
• order Terebratulida
• genus Arabatia
• species ?

--Haldrik 12:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Intro"

The "intro" to this article should be wikified. Mo-Al 17:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Segol

This article claims that Biblical Hebrew used the five "cardinal vowels /a e i o u/. What about segol (/ɛ/)? Mo-Al 18:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Which Biblical Hebrew?

The phonetics is confused.

Which "Biblical Hebrew"?

• There are several dialects of Classical Hebrew in the Bible from the Iron Age.
• There are scribal interpolations from the Persian Period.
• The vocalization comes from the Medieval Period.

The discriptions seem confused. For example, the phonetic table says: "Biblical Hebrew" has Bet/Vet. This is true of Medieval Period, but not of the Iron Age Period which only had Bet. Oppositely, it says that the Sin was pronounced like a "Lhin". This is true of the Iron Age Period, but not true of the Medieval Period which had "Sin".

I though behth, & vehth were in ancient Hebrew, because it the same thing in Arabic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 05:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

So, which Biblical Hebrew, does this article discuss. And they shouldnt be confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haldrik (talk • contribs)

The "intro" says "It is the mixed language that is discussed in this article". That doesn't say much for the phonetics. Mo-Al 19:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no basis for claiming as some have done that the Israelite people then spoke separate dialects of the Hebrew language. though the Samaritans slowly did become into a dialect.

A Samaritan Hebrew pronciation existed then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.60.200 (talk) 19:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonstandard

What does this article mean by /á:/? Mo-Al 18:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Most likely stress. Pretty bad notation, mixing IPA length marking with older stress marking. Staking diacritics is OTOH fairly advanced Unicode & the issues with only using IPA are brought up elsewhere on this page. Any suggestions for better transcription? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 09:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

How do you say?

Would it be possible to say "Take up your cross" in Hebrew, how would you say it, and write it, if someone could help me with this I'd greatly appreciate it. Please don't post unless you actually know, this has to be accurate, if you can helpme I'd be extremely grateful, thankyou.

There is no direct equivlent in classic/Biblical Hebrew for "Cross." You might try the Modern Hebrew page for better answer -Cwbachur הרם את.

Well first it was (stau·ros′) not a cross the original Greek (stau·ros′) meaning stake, primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.

In fact, the Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom. At Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, the Hebrew word translated “stake” is ‛ets, meaning primarily a tree or wood, specifically a wooden post. Executional crosses were not used by the Hebrews. The Aramaic word ’a‘, corresponding to the Hebrew term ‛ets, appears at Ezra 6:11, where it is said regarding violators of a Persian king’s decree: “A timber will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it.” Obviously, a single timber would have no crossbeam.

In rendering Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 (“stake”)(σταυρός) and Ezra 6:11 (“timber”), translators of the Septuagint Version employed the Greek word xy′lon, the same term that Paul used at Galatians 3:13. It was also the one employed by Peter, when he said Jesus “bore our sins in his own body upon the stake.” (1 Pet. 2:24) In fact, xy′lon is used several other times to refer to the “stake” on which Jesus was impaled. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29) This Greek word has the basic meaning of “wood.” There is nothing to imply that in the case of Jesus’ impalement it meant a stake with a crossbeam.--72.38.211.144 (talk) 05:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure if this word ever appeared in the bible, but the hebrew word for cross is tzlav. "Your cross" would be tzlavkha. So the hebrew translation would be "Kakh et tzlavkha", קח את צלבך (take your cross) or "Harem et tzlavkha", הרם את צלבך (Pick up your cross). Hope I helped. TFighterPilot 14:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

IPA not appropriate

How could this article possibly include IPA? The language is long extinct as a spoken language, and we have only guesses as to its accurate pronunciation. The best we can do is to accurately transliterate the masoretic (or otherwise) vocalisation. Phonetic transcription is not possible and a message saying we should use IPA is silly. Yes, the transcription should be consistent, no it should not be IPA. jnothman ^talk 15:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would strongly disagree as the language, much like Koine Greek, has adopted a standardised method of pronunciation. This may or may not be the way it was intended to sound, but is adopted as a standard used by hebrew scholars to communicate with one another. Furthermore, hebrew pedagogy depends upon associating sounds with shapes. 138.251.95.1 10:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is not very accurate to say that the language is not spoken anymore. There are several traditions of pronunciation, as the Bible is still read in synagogues. Furtheremore, the Tiberian method of diacritics gives a very accurate account on another tradition of pronunciation (now extinct) used by the Jews of the Galilee during the 7-8 centuries CE. Using all these tranditions and accounts and combining them with comparisons to other Semitic languages, we can come up with rather good guess on how Biblical Hebrew sounded in different times. DrorK 21:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with jnothman. Preciesly because there are different pronunciation traditions, IPA - which is supposed to write sounds - is unsuitable. Transliteration corresponding to letters should be used, and with extra care at that. --192.114.91.226 13:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

eth - sorry I too hastily deleted it Realiseyourdignity (talk) 10:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

For the record of a previous discussion of eth, please go to: http://www.oneworldonecuponesite.com/index.php?q=Talk:Biblical_Hebrew_language#eth The site has copyright. It contains valuable information pointing out there is an alternate definition considered by Gesenius and Waltke and O'Connor for example.

eth

Note this is an old revision of the article stored at Wikipedia

The word eth should be discussed.

It is said to denote the accusative of the sentence. However, Gesenius (or his editor) in one of his lexicons says on page XCII, he had previously supposed it to be a sign of the accusative, but now thinks it had the significance of 'self' and could be translated in Greek as 'autos'. "The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament" (1980) Harris et al. Moody p83 says 'More important than indicating the accusative the function of 'et is to emphasize the word to which it is attached'.

Equating 'autos' and 'eth seems to be what some manuscipts of Mark 10:7 did in translating the passage from Genesis where 'et is used before 'faher' and 'mother'; some manuscipts have 'autos' in both places.

To go back to Gesenius; he says (pXCII) the word was preserved in the language of common life (and it would be harder to imagine that this is a sign of the accusative; but easy to imagine each speaker adding subjective value to something by emphasising it).

A reference in the index to the Babylonian Talmud, claims that a certain Rabbi was very couragous in saying he didn't know what the word meant. The Babylonian Talmud / translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices, under the editorship of I. Epstein. Publisher London : Soncino Press, [1961] Please see index under eth, for quotation of the brave Rabi. 203.10.59.12 00:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

EDIT BY SIR MYLES NA GOPALEEN.

Etymologically, I am sure that it is the same as Arabic aya(t), which means "sign" or "proof" (also represented by Hebrew ot; and et followed by a pronominal suffix does indeed become ot-). In Arabic the word (or its masculine equivalent, ayy-, "which") is used both to add emphasis and, sometimes, to bolster up an accusative. Literally, it would mean something like "the whichness of", and thus "the self of", i.e. "that very one". The rabbis, however, confused it with the other et, meaning "with", hence Aquila's translation of the first verse of Genesis as sun tois ouranois kai sun te ge (with the heavens and with the earth). Thus they sometimes interpreted it as a word of extension, connoting "the thing expressed, and something else unspecified". It now survives only as the sign of a definite accusative, and Ben Gurion and others took the view that the word was so confusing that it ought to be eliminated. There is a modern howler "yesh li et ha-sefer" for "I have the book", where "yesh li" is treated as a translation of "I have", so as to take the accusative, even though grammatically "the book" is the subject of the sentence (as if in Latin you said Est mihi librum instead of Est mihi liber). This is all very technical, and should go in a specialised article on Hebrew grammar or particles, rather than in the main Hebrew language article. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 08:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC) 165.228.160.56 07:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

In 'Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament scriptures/ translated with additions and corrections from te author's thesaurus and other works by Samuel Prideaux Tregelles', London, Bagster, 1846 p XCII Gesennius or his editor, says, (I think):

"In the Arabic these answer to ,,, ayat(?) ... used reflectively 'I have beaten myself'..." and (this must be Tragelles) this is more probable than that which I lately supposed that et, ot ... are i.q. 'a sign', which however is the opinion of Ewald ...

My own motive is that 'et' is placed before many things (including nominatives) and if it is emphatic it implies value. For example Cain uses it of himself, Daniel uses it of the trouble Israel has received. If we can see value in these things: 'It's all good'. But I am a novice.

In consulting "An introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax" by Bruce K Waltke and M O'Connor, Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake Indiana, 1990 pp177-178; there is the following passage: "...(1) ...sign of the accusative ... (2) More recent grammarians regard it as a marker of emphasis used most often which definite nouns in the accusative role. The apparent occurrences with the nominative are most problematic ... AM Wilson late in the nineteenth century concluded from his exhaustive study of all the occurrences of the debated particle that it had an intensive or reflexive force in some of its occurences. Many grammarians have followed his lead. (reference lists studies of 1955, 1964, 1964, 1973, 1965, 1909, 1976.) On such a view, eth is a weakened emphatic particle corresponding to the English pronoun 'self' ... It resembles Greek 'autos' and latin 'ipse' both sometimes used for emphasis, and like them it can be omitted from the text, without obscuring the grammar. This explanation of the particle's meaning harmonizes well with the facts that the particle is used in Michnaic Hebrew as a demonstrative and is found almost exclusively with determinate nouns."

(I am not a student of this college) 165.228.114.24 01:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

To do with the etemology of the word, Gesennius' Lexicon is available on-line at the 'Blue Letter Bible' and he makes a note at the end of strong's number 834 asher in which he says d and t are often used in demonstratives, sometimes with an added first vowel. Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'aher (Strong's 0834)". Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2007. 23 Sep 2007. < http:// cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm? Strongs=H834&Version=KJV >

I was hoping the meaning could be derived from the importance of hospitality in biblical times. The word eth also means with, and I think some pronouns incorporate it. So an extention could be 'blessed'? Realiseyourdignity 07:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

165.228.114.24 03:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me just point out that the word "et" or "eth" (Template:He) in the Hebrew Bible is not merely an accusative marker. It usually denotes a semantic role rather than a grammatical role, so it is more accurate to say that it marks the "patient" of the sentence, rather than the accusative. This definition would explain such phrases as yōm hulledeth eth parʕō (Template:He (Genesis 40:20) and bəyōm higgamēl eth yisˠħāq (Template:He) (Genesis 21:8). DrorK 21:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H853&Version=KJV Please see the above link to Gesenius' lexicon. In 2(a) he says eth is put before nominatives too. - Steve. 131.181.251.66 01:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, but only in passive sentences. That is exactly what I meant - in Biblical Hebrew (unlike Modern Hebrew) the word "eth" indicates a patient, i.e. a semantic role (a.k.a. thematic role) rather than the grammatical role of accusative. DrorK 19:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 21:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it used consistently or frequently in such a role? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Gesenius lists a few examples: Gen21:5, 46:20, Ex10:8, Lev 10:18, Num 11:22, 26:55,60, Josh 7:15. Are these such passive sentances? It seems they could be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 21:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Does 1Sam 17:34 give an example of et before a nominative in an active sentence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 23:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

please see: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2002-May/013087.html for examples with the nominative. This page is an email from Dr Tiinhard G Lehmann; Forschungsstelle fuer Althebraseische Spache; Johannes-Gutenberg Universitaet Mainz; D - 5509 Mainz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As Dr Tiinhard G Lehmann says, we should first make a clear distinction between "eth" as a preposition (meaning "with" and equivalent to "ʕim") and "eth" as a particle (a case marker or whatever). The two have different meanings and different inflection paradigms, even though they look identical in their base form. The particle "eth" in the Hebrew Bible comes in various grammatical structure, but it all cases it precedes the patient's noun, i.e. the noun indicating the receiver of the action performed. For example, yōm hulledeth eth parʕō (=the Pharaoh's birthday) is a nominal structure, but Pharaoh is definitely a "patient" here - he is the one who received the action of birth. This is the case in all of Gesenius' example. DrorK 08:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, infact I read somewhere that my previous quoted Wilson didn't distinguish between the two meanings of eth.

But 1 Sam 17:34 seems to have a clause in which eth is used infront of the subject, an animal, and it seems active. It is about a lion and a bear taking a lamb. Is this right? In this case the lamb is the receiver of the action performed. - Steve —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 09:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you could always say the animals are future patients of David? - Steve —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.114.24 (talk) 02:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Nehmiah 9:34 also seems to use eth with the subject in active voice, so I trust that Dr Lahmann's other examples given do too, and then some are with a passive verb.

The consequences of this is that there are many examples of emphasis of value - even on distasteful things - perhaps this implies God still values them too. For example, I don't think eth is used of the Devil and I don't think it is used after Canan (who was cursed), although it is used after the land of Canan in psalms. - Steve —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 10:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I hope the word eth explains why Jesus could be so tolerant and yet obey the law. The rule on divorce quoted in Matthew 19:8 and in Deut 24, contains an eth before a new wife in 24:5. If this is his 'very wife' it explains why 'God hates a divorcing', and why Jesus could say that Moses only introduced that law out of their hardness of heart Matt 19:8 - Steve. And why autos is used so many times and redundantly (according to some MS) in John 8 in the story of the adulterous woman and Jesus' hypergraphia - Steve.

About 1 Sam 17:34 - This is the 2nd type "eth", i.e. in this case "eth" is a preposition which means "with" - "the lion came (and) with the bear took a lamb from the herd." Later on, David says that he killed the lion, saved the lamb and then killed the bear as well. Nehmiah 9:34 is more tricky. I could argue that the verse is not properly delimited, i.e. that it should be: "...and we went astray (and) with our kings. Our lords, priests and fathers did not follow thy law." Then again, you could argue I try to wipe a problematice evidence :-) This is indeed an irregular use of "eth" in both meanings.

About Deut 24 - I didn't find the word "eth" in it, in the standard Hebrew Jewish version. DrorK 11:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked with the Gesenius Lexicon and no examples given gave the word 'with' before the definite article - not saying that it doesn't occur, but customarily the mark of the accusative is supposed to be before the definite article. There's also the quesion about the waw. Does the word 'with' end up suffixed to a redundant waw many times in the bible?

Deuteronomy mentions a 'new wife' in 24:5, I think the definite article is attached to 'new' which means it is refering to 'the new wife' mentioned in the previous verses. - Steve. I've only done a little bit of Hebrew and can't remember if the word 'wife' should bear the definite article too if the adjective does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I just searched for 'and with' in 1 samuel, the occurences in English are 4:12,13:22, 17:28, 17:45; 17:50 and 18:6. None of them use the 'eth' or 'with'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 16:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"The International Critical Commentary, Samuel" by Smith, Eds SR Driver;A Plummer;CA Briggs; T & T Clark, Edinburugh 1904 p161 says: "It may indicate that the bear was an even more formidable enemy than the Syrian lion - even the bear". That is what I believe. "Word Biblical Commentary 1 Samuel", by Ralph W Klein, Word Book Publishers 1983, Texas, p171 says: "MT incorrectly adds the sign of the direct object. Presumably this is a correction that should be added to the word bear in v36". "An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax" (as referenced before) p182, says"The particla is prefixed to nouns in the nominative function in both verbal and verbless clauses, usually in cases involving enumerations or appositions ... In verbal clauses eth can mark the subject of transitive and intransitive verbs and passive verbs. The use with transitives is extremely rare, the other two usages are more common."; and it lists 1 Sam 17:34 as a case of intransitive.

In looking at the problem of eth with nominatives, 'An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax' p177 (as quoted previously) says of these unusual cases, 'are they to be denied, emended away or the like'. This is similar to the comment made Lehmann on the web. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.114.24 (talk) 22:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

My previous comment about the definite article in Deut 24:5 was wrong, and I must admit on this basis I am glad the information so far can support the view of substituting autos for eth, but I am unable to go further in the way of criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.114.24 (talk) 22:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC) Thanks Drork - Steve —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 00:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Drork, could the word new in Deut 24:5 be read as 'restored' in unpointed text? This line contains the 'eth' and the sympathy of the text is directed to the woman who was divorced. The subject of the verb(?) restore would be the husband so the consonants would be the same - Steve. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.251.66 (talk) 12:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

We went quite beyond the scope of this talk page, and other users might be uncomfortable with that. Generally speaking, the talk page should discuss the article and not elaborate on its subject. I suggest we continue this discussion on my talk page (simply open a new paragraph there). Thanks! DrorK 20:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Realiseyourdignity (talk) 09:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Verb Stems

Should a section be added to this article concerning verb stems ie Qal Nephal etc? Meswallen (talk) 23:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Too Many Vowels?

This is sort-of original research, but my comment as a linguistics student, especially one involved in the Semitic and Afro-Asiatic family, is this: Two things, actually:

The most scholarly opinion of this language I've read is that it never existed as it is in all places of the Hebrew Bible in the mouth of a living person. It's a combination of phases of the Hebrew language from different times, modified for use in the Bible and then used to compose original texts long after any semblance of its original languages were used. Much like the diglossia Classical Mayan and the diglossias of Egyptian and probably post-Shang Chinese (writing).

The second is this reconstruction doesn't carry linguistic water: it has way, way too many vowels! It's ridiculous! This is about the number and quality of an INDO-EUROPEAN vowel phoneme set, not a Semitic or even standard AFRO-ASIATIC. Even Ge'ez' 7 is seen as a later development of extreme strangeness. Furthermore, the writing system itself gives proof to this (the initiated will need no explaination while the unfamiliar will be baffled or upset). Afro-asiatic languages developed writing (or at least consonantal writing) because their languages rely more on consonantal diversity than Indo-European ones, which out of necessity took extra consonant signs (which represented phonemes) and used them for vowel signs (which represented phonemes, or handy combinations thereof, rather).

I and my instructor have noticed similar comments and assumptions in Lambdin's work on Ge'ez. This is a symptom of the overall diconnect between modern synchronic/dichronic Chompsky-based linguistics and Semitology (and other such avenues, like Egyptology, Assyriology). And as some semblance of a linguist, I feel compelled to mention it for the open-minded to look seriously into before Lambdin's work is embraced by all as a monument to the finality of scientific enquiry (apologies for pendantry).

Epigraphist (talk) 05:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do you see this as a problem? Nobody's complaining either that French has too many vowels. Besides, when you count length & the difthongs, PS itself had 8 vowels.

On the contrary, the article for some reason seems to think that long /oː/ existed in Proto-Semitic. Weird. Maybe it refers to the secondary /oː/ that develop'd in the previous step? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 12:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Notation Inquiry

Are all those consonants in the phonology really supposed to be combined with voiceless pharyngeal fricatives? It seems to me that someone was trying for ejectives and just got their signs mixed up. 9 or foward quotation mark is usually a glottal stop, right, but it's used for denoting ejective consonants, not without good reason. And then 6 or backwards quotation mark is for the voiceless pharyngeal fricatives. I've never seen it used like the glottal stop, unless this is a consonant cluster, which I doubt from what reading of Semitic phonologies I've done.

It's okay, I'm not here to harange anyone. Just a double check, maybe some banter?

Epigraphist (talk) 06:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC) Epigraphist (talk) 06:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In IPA, the sign which looks like a question mark: ʔ is used to denote a glotal stop. A voiceless pharyngeal fricative ("'ayin") is reversed: ʕ. pharyngealized consonant is denoted by a superscript "'ayin" attached to the consonant symbol, e.g. sˤ = pharyngealized s. In Semitic languages pharyngealization and velarization are usually not distinguished, and therefore it is common to use a single symbol for both. For example, instead of randomly choosing between sˤ and sˠ, many linguists cross the letter with a tilde. Unfortunately this option is not offered in the Wikipedia list of IPA symbols. Another option is to put a dot under the letter, but this may cause confusion with other IPA symbols, and is used only when it is clear that only Semitic languages are discussed, and that all listeners/readers have basic knowledge about Semitic phonology. DrorK (talk) 06:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction Inquiry

The Introduction to this article is irrelevant and suspect, it needs to be cleaned up substantially. It claims that modern Hebrew speakers can understand Classical Hebrew and that it is commonly used in the Israeli print and video media. This assertion is both irrelevant to introducing the idea of "Classical Hebrew", which includes a broad spectrum of Hebrew texts, one of which happens to be the Hebrew Bible, and this assertion is controversial as well. Most Semitic Philologists who command both Modern (fluently) and Ancient Hebrew will tell you in a heart beat that Modern readers cannot, in fact, read Ancient Hebrew appropriately. Modern Hebrew speakers tend to mishandle the vocabulary and syntax of Ancient Hebrew on a fundamentally deep level. Comprehension is especially rare in early texts.nsweet (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I have removed what I consider to be the most dubious of the numerous unsourced statements in the introduction. Colonel Mustard (talk) 12:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Biblical Hebrew is somewhat comprehensible to Modern Hebrew speakers, but not entirely, and the untrained reader often get the wrong idea about the meaning of the text. Israeli Hebrew speaking schools teach the Hebrew Bible extensively, so an educated Israeli should be able to read and understand Biblical texts, but this is due to formal teaching rather than language acquisition. DrorK (talk) 14:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

hebrew language

When was the Hebrew language orginate and what languages was the Hebrew language come from? also Egypt language was used by Moses and what other language did he have knowldge to be able to speak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.154.141.133 (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)