Talk:American Jews

Who is a Jew?

The argument about who is a Jew is typically discussed regarding people that are religiously Jewish, but do not identify as such, because they are either atheist or do not follow the religion any longer. It is not correct to consider people Jewish that are not religiously Jewish, even if they identify as socially "Jewish". You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish (although some Reform Jews accept patrilineal descent too, this is not accepted universally by Reform Jews and is not at all accepted by normative Judaism). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer (talk • contribs) 21:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This article from a reliable source says that Lenny Kravitz is Jewish. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Malik. We don't have to use the Orthodox standard for Jew inclusion. It should be sufficient for a person to be self-identified, as it would be for any other religion.--Loodog (talk) 21:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but Kravitz says he is half-Jewish here: http://www.lenny-kravitz.com/interviewdeepjoy.html, and Gelbwasser has been called before on accuracy. Kravitz is not a Jew, period.Sposer (talk) 21:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

He also says he's half Black.

Have you checked the religion of the mothers of all the other people identified as Jews in the article? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

In fact, I have been fixing the lists, for those that I know, for more than a year (i.e., removed baseball player Ryan Braun). Has nothing to do with him being Black, if that is what you are getting at. I added Lisa Bonet (who wasn't on the list originally) as her mother is Jewish and her father is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer (talk • contribs) 21:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I was just asking because there are a lot of names and very few no sources cited. In this instance, there is a source, but you won't accept it because of your judgment that he isn't Jewish. Have you read WP:SYNTH recently? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Malik - There are multiple sources that say he is not Jewish too. Most say that his father was Jewish and his mother a Bahamian Christian, but state neither way about him directly (probably because that information identifies him as not being Jewish by Jewish law). It is not synthesis to use that to say he isn't Jewish, since relgious Judiasm is defined by matrilineal descent. Beyond that, in my latest revert, I gave a source that says he identifies as Christian. His biographies say he is "half-Jewish", including quotes by him (so, he does not say he is Jewish either). I think I remember seeing an article in one of the Jewish papers coming down on Gelbwasser for having inaccuracies in his articles on who is Jewish, but I am not sure (plus if Glebwasser is Reform, he might consider Kravitz Jewish, but again, that is not normative Judiasm).Sposer (talk) 21:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

You are twisting WP:SYNTH to meet your belief. That is your POV, but it is 100% incorrect. Kravitz is not Jewish, period. He says he is half-Jewish in interviews. Half-Jewish is not Jewish. I gave a source that said he identifies as Christian: http://www.interfaithfamily.com/arts_and_entertainment/movies_theater_tv_and_music/Interfaith_Celebrities_New_Projects_By_Bonet_Okonedo_Lumet_and_Paltrow.shtml and here he says he is half-Jewish (which does not = Jewish): http://www.lenny-kravitz.com/interviewdeepjoy.html. Also, the Gelbwasser article gives the halachic definition of Jewish, and then says Kravitz is Jewish, but does not add that only his father is Jewish. It is not synthesis to use two completely true and related statements because the author left out that info, and especially when other sources state it correctly. Sposer (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

1) I reverted myself because of the article you linked to that says Kravitz identifies himself as Christian.

2) With respect to WP:SYNTH: Synthesis is taking fact A published by a reliable source (a person has a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother) and fact B published by a reliable source (according to halakha, Jewish identity is passed matrilineally) and joining A and B to come to conclusion C that isn't in the source (the person isn't Jewish). — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Malik. I do see your point on WP:SYNTH, but sort of disagree with this particular application. Sposer (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at how this would play out were Judaism (a) an ethnicity, (b) a religion:

(a) If a notable person were half Chinese, they would show up in an article about Chinese Americans. This even goes to the extreme for African Americans, since being 1/32 black "makes" you black.

(b) If a notable person were a self-declared Christian, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Muslim, etc..., we'd include that person as being that religion.

Either way, I don't see why Judaism is being held up to this standard that only Orthodox Jews austerely follow.--Loodog (talk) 21:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, Loodog, but that's a discussion for another day. The article says that Lenny Kravitz identifies himself as a Christian, so there's no reason to discuss him further. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but I didn't mean to speak in the abstract. I thought that Lenny Kravitz self identified as Jewish or half-Jewish and so should be in this article.--Loodog (talk) 21:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Loodog,It isn't just Orthodox Jews. Only Reform Jews accept as Jewish (religiously) somebody whose father (and not mother) are Jewish, absent a Conversion by a Conservative or Orthodox Rabbi. And, I am not sure all Reform Jews accepts patrilineal descent either, although I am not sure on that one. However, you are getting at the ethnic versus religious argument on Judiasm. However, the ethnic part is usually used as a way of eliminating people who are religiously Jewish, but do not consider themselves to be Jewish (at least that is how I have seen it in articles), and not the other way around. So, if Lisa Bonet, and her daughter Zoe Kravitz, who are Jewish because their mothers are Jewish, were to say they don't consider themselves to be Jewish, then who am I to say they are, even if they are technically Jewish according to any rabbinical interpretation. I am not saying it isn't done the other way, but I have not seen it. For example, Madeline Albright can be considered Jewish (since some Rabbis will say you are Jewish even if you convert out), because her mother was Jewish. However, because she was brought up Christian, and practices Christianity, and does not consider herself to be Jewish, she isn't. But, you cannot just say you are Jewish (or Catholic for that matter, for example, without Baptism, right?). You must convert, or be born into it, and most Jews require the mother to be Jewish to be born into it. The argument that Judiasm is an ethnicity in fact depends on the birth requirement.Sposer (talk) 22:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ. I think the more important measure of Jewishness is self-identification. If someone claims to be Jewish, who are we to hold them up to some minority group's standard when the majority of English speakers (the proper wikipedia standard) would recognize it?--Loodog (talk) 01:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Self-identification is important, but not sufficient on its own. For better or worse, Jews are an ethnicity with their own membership rules; the "minority group" in question happens to be the Jews, who actually get to make these decisions. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, non-Jews cannot define who Jews are Loodog (though I am guessing you meant Orthodox Jews and not that Jews can't decide the rules). And, as I would interpret the merriam-webster definiton, (3) and (4) are matrilineal (I know that is OR, but any interpretation is OR, including yours I guess). Conversion is religious, and only some reform Jews accept patrilineal, with all others accepting only matrilineal. Definition (1) it is no longer known who is of the tribe of Judah and definition (2) is not relevant.Sposer (talk) 02:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

You're definitely *interpretting* number 4. "Someone whose religion is Judaism." There's no interpretation to be made. There's no need to hallucinate details that aren't there.

Christ, look up "religion" if you don't believe me: "commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance". So unless you're accusing a self-identified Jew of lying about his faith and/or observance, you accept that his religion is Judaism. And someone whose religion is Judaism is one of the standard definitions for "Jew".--Loodog (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Judaism is an odd mix of religion, culture, and ethnicity. Practicing Judaism does not make one a Jew, though it will likely be a pre-requisite for (or assist in) conversion to Judaism. The waters are further muddied by the fact that almost 100% of "practitioners of Judaism" are "Jews" (though the reverse is not true). That said, if some Basque villager in Elduain suddenly decides to take up Judaism, practicing it in every respect and detail, he still won't be a Jew unless and until he formally converts to the faith. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

(undent).

1. Practicing and believing the principles of a religion makes it your religion.
2. If your religion is Judaism, you are a Jew by definition. It is not the ONLY way to be a Jew, but it is one way to be defined as a Jew.

1 & 2 -> 3

3. Practicing and believing the principles of Judaism is sufficient but not necessary to be labeled a Jew according to the definition.

You are contesting #3. Is this because you contest #1, #2, or simple logic?--Loodog (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Your arguments are interesting, but not particularly relevant: Jews decide who Jews are, not American dictionaries. All sorts of organizations and groups require some sort of formal certification for membership, whether it's a passing a degree program, paying some sort of dues, or a conversion ceremony. Your religion cannot be Judaism unless you formally convert to Judaism. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:42, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg is right. There is nobody that considers "calling oneself Jewish" enough, even if they practice. You must go through a formal conversion. What you need to understand is that Judaism requires you to show commitment (as per your Merriam Webster definition) to the religion via a ceremonial conversion or via matrilineal descent. Definition 4 outright mentions conversion. Conversion is a formal ceremony, not saying you are a Jew. The definition of religion is fine, but what commitment to the religion is varies by religion. Catholics require Baptism. Moslems require you to state your desire to follow Islam's precepts. Judiasm requires matrilineal descent or formal conversion. You are the one interpreting a general definition and wholly incorrectly applying it to something very specific. It does not make the person a liar that he calls himself Jewish. He can call himself Jewish all he/she wants, but he won't be considered Jewish unless he meets either the matrilineal descent requirement, or he/she undergoes the formal commitment via a conversion.

You are stuck on a definition that completely agrees with what Jayjg and I are saying, but seem to be misinterpreting it, which of course is your right, but it is not commonly accepted among Jews. Jews decide who are Jews, not the dictionary anyway, but the dictionary definition you gave, if you don't misinterpret it, fully meets the Jewish religious requirements anyway. You are Jewish if you commit via conversion or are Jewish by matrilineal descent. The Jew definition does not mention matrilineal, but that is how almost all accept it. And, definition #4 outright states conversion for the Jew definition. As for the religion defintion, I've already gone through that - you commit by converting (or you are by matrilineal descent). Please stop making up your own definitions. Sposer (talk) 03:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Jews are an ethnic group, while Judaism is a religion. Lenny Kravitz, to use an example cited earlier, is 50% ethnically Jewish through his father. A book written 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat doesn't change the fact 50% of a person's genes come through the father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CommanderJamesBond (talk • contribs) 09:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Why "American Jews" and not "Jewish American"?

Do they consider themselves Jews who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Jewish? DHN (talk) 03:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Why Jew at all since it is a religion, not an ethnicity or race? Why don't they call themselves Germans, Pols or Russians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.93.188 (talk) 23:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Religion

"Religion Judaism"

Not all Jews believe in Judaism, some are Christians, Muslims or Atheists as well.

This gets into the whole BS ethnicity of Jews/Judiasm garbage. If you convert to another religion, you are no longer Jewish. Otherwise, you are Jewish, if your mother was Jewish. If you are a convert to Christianity or Islam (or any other religion that is not Judiasm), you are not a Jew, except as defined by Nazis.Sposer (talk) 14:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Bernard Madoff

I say we add Mr.Madoff to the picture listing. Plz add kthnxbai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.227.170 (talk) 17:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Given his notoriety, I don't think it'd be appropriate any more than putting Ted Kaczynsky in the Polish Americans article.--Loodog (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Teenage Jews in Kiryas Joel

I think that the picture of teenage jews in Kiryas Joel is somewhat misleading. It implies that those pictured are typical residents, and that is certainly not the case. The typical resident is Chassidic. Those pictured are undoubtedly tourists, and it is probably just a vanity photograph because some people thought it would be cool to have their picture in Wikipedia. -Ezra Wax (talk) 08:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC

how can we get ride of it?

Joe Lieberman

Joe Lieberman should be in the infobox. He is the most well known Jewish senator, and the first Jewish VP nominee on a major party. I think he can replace Louis Brandeis. Rockyobody (talk) 01:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)