Talk:Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen

Hungary Stub‑class Low‑importance

	Hungary portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HungaryWikipedia:WikiProject HungaryTemplate:WikiProject HungaryHungary articles
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

It is certainly not synonimous with the Kingdom of Hungary. This term expressed the connection between the Koh and Croatia and other historical claims. Very important to enhance that Croatia was never part of Hungary, it is a special connection somewhere between the personal and real union. The conception of the LHCSSt was like an "eternal" union between two (or more) de iure independent countries.

I'd like to write about problems with this term, for example Dalmatia, Galicia etc but I haven't got any time now. Zello 10:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have not expressed it correctly, what I mean is that the term Kingdom of Hungary was/is also used for the Lands of the... in a wider sense, and I have not checked it, but I even think to remember that this was the case during Austria-Hungary. Juro 17:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The "Lands..." is a long and artificial sounding term so I'm sure that in everyday usage the Koh was more frequent, especially when there wasn't any special need to express sophisticated constitutional connections. But the legal meaning was different and the two was distinguished. See the official name of Austria-Hungary: "Die im Reichsrat vertretenen Königreiche und Länder und die Länder der heiligen ungarischen Stephanskrone". Actually the synomym of the LHSSt is not the KoH but the casual Austrian expression Transleithania. Zello 21:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is quite obvious, but the question is whether Kingdom of Hungary was not ALSO the official name, analogously to - and the A-H article is wrong in this part (and unfortunately it is me who wrote this wrongly there) - the "Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy", which was ALSO the fully official name, as I found out recently. But since you are in Budapest, you should have more quickly available sources about this, that's why I am asking. I am quite sure that KoH is also used in the wide sense, I am not sure to what extent this usage was official at that time. Juro 21:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Austria-Hungarian Monarchy" was one of the official names? That surprises me indeed. Could you give me some sources, where I can read more about it? Thanxs Gugganij 12:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up some sources within easy reach:

The Act of Ausgleich (1867/XII) speaks about the "Magyar Korona Országai" similary to the Economic Ausgleich Acts (1867/XIV-XVI)
The Croatian-Hungarian Ausgleich (1868/XXX) explains thoroughly the whole conception using the expressions "Szent István Koronájának Országai" and "Magyar Korona Országai"
Not official but in my old Pallas Lexikon Croatia is "one of the countries of the Lands of..." and my old geographical atlas from 1906 uses the term at the map of Austria-Hungary

Zello 22:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, and "Hungarian kingdom" or "KoH" appears nowhere in the wide sense? Juro 22:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the Austrian-Hungarian Ausgleich Acts typically the long term is used in the title and the first paragraphs and later only "Magyarország" but I think this is only a practical symplification. In the Croatian Ausgleich Act "Magyarország" is used always in the narrow meaning. Zello 22:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moving?

Shouldn't the article be moved to Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen? At least, that would be the exact translation of the German expression. Gugganij 12:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the exact translation would be Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen... Zello 15:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The exact name in Hungarian changed over the history. I do not remember where anymore, but there were Hungarian texts on the internet, where the names are listed and commented. Juro 17:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Google the "Holy Hungarian" version got 282 hit, the "Crown of St" 228 and the present only 33. It seems that we should rename the article. Personally I vote for the "Crown of St" version (not so terribly long). Zello 05:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we stick to the AEIOU project of the Austrian ministry of Education, Science and Culture it should be the "the lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of Saint Stephen". Gugganij 17:42, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but this is the translation of the German name. The "Crown of" version is the translation of the Hungarian name - and we speak about Hungary and Croatia... Zello 02:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am quite sure that the name changed between ...of the holy Hungarian crown, ...of the holy crown of St. Stephen, ...of the holy Stephen crown or something like that over the 18th / 19th century, i.e. there were at least three names in the Hungarian language (the German name was just a translation of the Hungarian name, I suppose). But as mentioned above, I cannot find the webpage anymore. Maybe Zello can. Juro 04:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find the webpage but I looked up all the four Hungarian name variants used in the 19th century. As far as I see they were synonyms. The proposed version is a translation of the German name which in Hungarian would be "szent magyar istvánkorona" or something like that. This version has never existed so I oppose changing. "Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen" was the most frequented one and prefered by Ferenc Deák. "Holy" was only my mistake when I created the article. Zello 12:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK then just add the Hungarian variants in the introduction (with literally translations), so that everybody knows that they are correct (I remember that someone delete one of the version I have used here, because he did not knew it was "official"). The Hungarian name is decisive, of course, because this is a only a descriptive "name". .... Juro 02:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see you have added the variants already... And I will remove the "Holy" from the title. Juro 02:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia (1867 - 1918).gif

The image Image:Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia (1867 - 1918).gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --18:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of Saint Stephen

That is the proper name and this is what is officially used in Austria-Hungary to denote "Transleithania". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizso (talk • contribs) 23:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, please someone tell me what's the difference between kingdom of Hungary and lands of St Stephen--Bizso (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

read this: Lands_of_the_Crown_of_Saint_Stephen --fz22 (talk) 13:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]