Talk:Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Transleithania was copied or moved into Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen with this edit on 12:32, 5 January 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

This article was nominated for merging with Transleithania on 26 May 2013. The result of the discussion (permanent link) was Merge.

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synonym with Kingdom

It is certainly not synonimous with the Kingdom of Hungary. This term expressed the connection between the Koh and Croatia and other historical claims. Very important to enhance that Croatia was never part of Hungary, it is a special connection somewhere between the personal and real union. The conception of the LHCSSt was like an "eternal" union between two (or more) de iure independent countries.

I'd like to write about problems with this term, for example Dalmatia, Galicia etc but I haven't got any time now. Zello 10:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have not expressed it correctly, what I mean is that the term Kingdom of Hungary was/is also used for the Lands of the... in a wider sense, and I have not checked it, but I even think to remember that this was the case during Austria-Hungary. Juro 17:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The "Lands..." is a long and artificial sounding term so I'm sure that in everyday usage the Koh was more frequent, especially when there wasn't any special need to express sophisticated constitutional connections. But the legal meaning was different and the two was distinguished. See the official name of Austria-Hungary: "Die im Reichsrat vertretenen Königreiche und Länder und die Länder der heiligen ungarischen Stephanskrone". Actually the synomym of the LHSSt is not the KoH but the casual Austrian expression Transleithania. Zello 21:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is quite obvious, but the question is whether Kingdom of Hungary was not ALSO the official name, analogously to - and the A-H article is wrong in this part (and unfortunately it is me who wrote this wrongly there) - the "Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy", which was ALSO the fully official name, as I found out recently. But since you are in Budapest, you should have more quickly available sources about this, that's why I am asking. I am quite sure that KoH is also used in the wide sense, I am not sure to what extent this usage was official at that time. Juro 21:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Austria-Hungarian Monarchy" was one of the official names? That surprises me indeed. Could you give me some sources, where I can read more about it? Thanxs Gugganij 12:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up some sources within easy reach:

The Act of Ausgleich (1867/XII) speaks about the "Magyar Korona Országai" similary to the Economic Ausgleich Acts (1867/XIV-XVI)
The Croatian-Hungarian Ausgleich (1868/XXX) explains thoroughly the whole conception using the expressions "Szent István Koronájának Országai" and "Magyar Korona Országai"
Not official but in my old Pallas Lexikon Croatia is "one of the countries of the Lands of..." and my old geographical atlas from 1906 uses the term at the map of Austria-Hungary

Zello 22:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, and "Hungarian kingdom" or "KoH" appears nowhere in the wide sense? Juro 22:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the Austrian-Hungarian Ausgleich Acts typically the long term is used in the title and the first paragraphs and later only "Magyarország" but I think this is only a practical symplification. In the Croatian Ausgleich Act "Magyarország" is used always in the narrow meaning. Zello 22:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moving?

Shouldn't the article be moved to Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen? At least, that would be the exact translation of the German expression. Gugganij 12:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the exact translation would be Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen... Zello 15:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The exact name in Hungarian changed over the history. I do not remember where anymore, but there were Hungarian texts on the internet, where the names are listed and commented. Juro 17:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Google the "Holy Hungarian" version got 282 hit, the "Crown of St" 228 and the present only 33. It seems that we should rename the article. Personally I vote for the "Crown of St" version (not so terribly long). Zello 05:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we stick to the AEIOU project of the Austrian ministry of Education, Science and Culture it should be the "the lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of Saint Stephen". Gugganij 17:42, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but this is the translation of the German name. The "Crown of" version is the translation of the Hungarian name - and we speak about Hungary and Croatia... Zello 02:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am quite sure that the name changed between ...of the holy Hungarian crown, ...of the holy crown of St. Stephen, ...of the holy Stephen crown or something like that over the 18th / 19th century, i.e. there were at least three names in the Hungarian language (the German name was just a translation of the Hungarian name, I suppose). But as mentioned above, I cannot find the webpage anymore. Maybe Zello can. Juro 04:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find the webpage but I looked up all the four Hungarian name variants used in the 19th century. As far as I see they were synonyms. The proposed version is a translation of the German name which in Hungarian would be "szent magyar istvánkorona" or something like that. This version has never existed so I oppose changing. "Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen" was the most frequented one and prefered by Ferenc Deák. "Holy" was only my mistake when I created the article. Zello 12:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK then just add the Hungarian variants in the introduction (with literally translations), so that everybody knows that they are correct (I remember that someone delete one of the version I have used here, because he did not knew it was "official"). The Hungarian name is decisive, of course, because this is a only a descriptive "name". .... Juro 02:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see you have added the variants already... And I will remove the "Holy" from the title. Juro 02:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of Saint Stephen

That is the proper name and this is what is officially used in Austria-Hungary to denote "Transleithania". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizso (talk • contribs) 23:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, please someone tell me what's the difference between kingdom of Hungary and lands of St Stephen--Bizso (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

read this: Lands_of_the_Crown_of_Saint_Stephen --fz22 (talk) 13:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article says: Group of countries connected by personal union to the kingdom of hungary. What group of countries? There was only Croatia and it was ruled by Hungary. The relation of Hungary and Croatia is disputed, it can be called personal union. Nonetheless, Croatia was part of the kingdom of hungary and had limited autonomy. The lands of St Stephen and Kingdom of Hungary are the same state. Kingdom of hungary =/= Hungary proper.--Bizso (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hah, what about Cisleithania? That article should be also merged into Austrian Empire?? sorry but this sounds little nationalistic.. Cisleithania was a name of the Austrian part of Austria-Hungary. Transleithania was an term for the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary. Reader —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.170.124 (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand the existance of the coat of arms of Kingodm of Dalmatia (three lion heads on the blue background) inside the coat of arms of the Lands of the holy crown. The question appears if we look at the map provided that does not include the Kingdom of Dalmatia. Any valid explanation?Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 00:02, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 14:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen → Transleithania – For consistency with the name of the other part of Austria-Hungary, namely Cisleithania. The other option would be to move Cisleithania to Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council, but this pair could be better by means of shortness Jaro88slav (talk) 05:52, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, both "Cisleithania" and "Transleithania" were just unofficial names [1]. We may create a link (redirect) from the title "Transleithania" to this article, but otherwise the current name is just fine as it is. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 06:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title. (WP:UCN). In many cases, the official name will be the best choice to fit these criteria. However, in many other cases, it will not be. (WP:ON) Some official names are never used except in legal or other esoteric documents and for theatrical effect. (WP:ON)Jaro88slav (talk) 06:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Nevertheless, "Transleithania" is still a very awkward name, it is not informative at all. The territory this article talks about was basically the Kingdom of Hungary plus the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia (+Fiume), united under the Crown of Saint Stephen. So the current title is more descriptive. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 07:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you also support, by analogy, the move Cisleithania → Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council Jaro88slav (talk) 07:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In short: yes. We can discuss though whether we should translate the word "Reichsrat", since it is often not translated by English sources [2] (1340 hits) vs "Imperial Council" version [3] (130 hits). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 08:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, all interwikis use their respective language version of the current title, "Lands of the (Holy) Crown of Saint Stephen" (cs, gl, hr, it, nl, pl, ru, sr, sv, uk), while all interiwikis also use their respective forms of Cisleithania (bg, cs, de, eo, es, et, fr, hr, it, ja, la, lt, nl, no, pl, pt, ru, sk, sl, sv, uk, zh), i.e., not "Kingdoms and Lands Represented in...". — AjaxSmack 01:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that other wikis very often look up to en: on such relatively minor topics, and they also often simply translate the English articles. We'd have to analyze the local referencing on those articles to be really sure this consensus isn't artificial. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:29, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True for many but I doubt it for, say, the respective German articles. Anyway, I wasn't using it to advance an argument but merely putting it out there. — AjaxSmack 02:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The country's official name was Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen and the article has adequate information about its unofficial name. Actually this move is quite senseless in my opinion.Fakirbakir (talk) 08:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal

I propose to merge Talk:Transleithania and Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1867–1918) into Talk:Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen. Because Transleithania and Kingdom of Hungary (1867–1918) are only redirect pages for Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen for a long time; Talk:Transleithania really has some content, Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1867–1918) is only a blank page from this talk page was created until now; Talk:Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen never has its archive page until now, I think it is a good idea to complete this page merger.
123.150.182.177
09:58, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

We don't merge talk page usually. Matthew hk (talk) 10:39, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]