Talk:Machine gun

Moral Question

I've been looking over the article, and everything is fine except for one thing. Metal Storm weapons and miniguns are notable "rapid fire" weapons, but are not really true machine guns unless powered by the byproduct of their projectile (and they're not). So on the "Future" section near the bottom that mentions Metal Storm and the minigun, should I delete this section, or should I leave it and just modify the contents?

Because I hate to break it to you, but neither of those weapon systems are machine guns.

Squirt Guns=

OK, sombody changed in the operating principals section, the thing about when squirt guns were first used, and the random quote about peeing on a statue is illegal, i really hate poeple like that, i couldnt figure out how to change it back, kinda new here, but just a heads up to anybody who knows how to do this. it just didnt look right to me. Dave —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.109.60.228 (talk) 18:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Speed

The most popular feature of machine guns and similiar weapons is their speed... Why the speed is nto specifically addressed anywhere? I mean, with data like "fire X bullets per sec" or something like that. 200.106.40.22 20:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That isnt to true as most machine guns have arouind the same rate of fire exept for a couple the major difffernces you see are mostly in video games. The most important thing is really

• Lightness/easy to move
• Belt/magizne capicty
• reliabilty

If you think about any machine gun will keep a solider down in cover.(ForeverDEAD 22:06, 30 August 2007 (UT

"most machine guns have around the same rate of fire"?! Definately not true. Let's take a look at some well known ROF stats. A Mac 10 (or Mac 11) has a fire rate of over 1200 RPM (rounds per minute), or 20 rounds per second. Likewise, the venerable M2 machine gun has a relatively sluggish ROF of about 500 RPM, or about 8-9 rounds per second (I'm not doing the math). And even if you claim that the Mac 10 is a "submachine gun", there are plenty of very fast fully-fledged machine guns. Look at the M16 page or the P90 page, which technically IS a machine gun, because it uses rifle bullets.

Also, video games typically recreate ROF to a certain degree; if the gun fires too fast, they modify it so that it is more gamer friendly.

Lastly, though any weapon will suppress, 99% of the time it is better to kill your enemy than suppress him if you can, which means a more accurate machinegun=better.

P.S. To the first commenter, the Wiki pages do tell you the rate of fire. It's called either RPM or cyclic rate, and you need to divide the number by 60 to get the number of rounds per second. Eiffel56 (talk) 01:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Auto weapons

Are all automatic weapons considered machine guns?

No. In general, a machine gun needs to fire rifle ammunition (pistol ammunition makes it a submachine gun) from a belt or high-capacity magazine (assault rifles have small-capacity magazines). --Carnildo 03:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that true machine guns would have a definition as follows... Fires Rifle rounds with few exceptions, from an open or closed bolt position, are automaticaly operated by either; Gas (M-240), recoil (M-2), or blow back (MK-19). The Machine comes in that the weapon is BELT FED and the process of de-linking, stripping(taking round out of the link, and feeding are done at the same time in one single operation, and the weapon is fully automatic. The weapons that can be fed by high capacity magazine are technicaly an automatic rifle. this is a conundrum for the U.S. military in how the classify the M-249 S.A.W. it was once classified as a automatic rifle and sometimes is still but, now is often called an light machine gun. Finaly a machine pistol is a automatic rifle that fires pistol cartridges. As to the small capacity magazines, most automatic rifles come with high capacity magazines like the Russians RPK but, they can still use the ak-47 magazines.

True, but machine guns do not always have to be belt fed. Eiffel56 (talk) 05:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Should applicattion be a factor when classifying these things? By your definition an M249 SAW (Belt fed or high capacity magazine) is called a Squad Automatic Weapon because it is used as a support for a unit of troops at squad size, instead of a Light machine gun which would be used to cover a larger group from a fixed position or vehicle mounted. This principle could solve some issues with regards to what qualifies as an assault rifle also, as it is a rifle that combines semi or full automatic fire, stopping power and mobility in an assault situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.215.75.4 (talk) 04:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Mixed General talk

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Does anyone actually know what the effects/consequences are of an overheated gun? That'd be a great addition either here, or somewhere... I'm primarily interested in the technical specifics. I imagine barrel warping occurs, but what actually stops you from firing anyway? Having no idea on the subject, I imagine things start melting? --Moogleii 07:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I just found some info on Fas.org. I'm still not sure if it'd be appropriate to put it here, but I'll let you guys figure that out. I quote:

The longer the burst, the higher the temperature attained. The progressive heating of the barrel gives rise to several effects some of which are as follows:

   *  Accelerated wear of the bore.
   * Expansion of the barrel leading to loss in bullet velocity and finally to tumbling of the projectile.
   * Stoppage of gun caused by the expanded barrel seizing in the trunnion block or flash suppressor.
   * . Ignition (cook-off) of the propelling charge by the heat of the barrel. 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m296.htm

Yeah, you don't want to overheat your barrel or your ammo box, as there have been reports of the entire magazine shooting off without control, which only makes it hotter... Also, the above user is right. GoogleVid the clip where some guy shoots thousands of rounds through his AK-47 and look at how innaccurate his gun is.

I imagine the same is pretty much true of other air-cooled machine guns...which leads to another question, are there machine guns out there that are not air-cooled and use some kind of coolant (other than water and uh, "field urine"). Moogleii 07:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Every machine gun out there is either air-cooled or water-cooled, and water-cooling isn't very common because it limits your mobility. --Carnildo 08:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

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Describe the new page here. The following was the content of the Machine-guns page, which is improperly pluralized and less descriptive than Machine Gun:

These weapons have changed the tactics of warfare. They are mechanisms for spraying bullets onto an area of ground, enabling one, two or three man teams to provide the same fire power as a whole platoon. The standard weapon of the Wehrmacht was not the rifle but the machine-gun.

• Maxim?

Known patterns of MG: General Purpose Machine Gun/GPMG Squad Assault Weapon/SAW Browning 50 caliber MG42 Bren gun ...others...

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While the Wehrmacht had terrific light machine guns, it still wasn't the standard weapon. --Belltower

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The article says: Many of the M2 .50Cal machine guns are so accurate that they can actually be used to snipe targets at great distances, although the morality of this practice has been questioned.

I'm unqualified to confirm or disconfirm this, but it sounds odd to me. Why would this morality of this practice (in a wartime context, of course, sniping is surely immoral at other times) be questioned? By whom?

I believe that using ammunition as heavy as .50 caliber for antipersonnel sniping is forbidden by the Geneva convention, or at least, it is forbidden as doctrine (the world record for a long-distance sniper kill is with .50 caliber). --Andrew 09:29, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I doubt that. My understanding of the various conventions limiting what weapons are allowed is that the forbidden weapons are ones that:

1. Are deliberately designed to cripple, not kill
2. Have a high risk of harming civilians (land mines)
3. Are inherently uncontrollable (gas, germs)

Carnildo 19:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, yes. My apologies. It turns out to be a common myth; there is indeed no problem with them under the Geneva conventions, and some armies do teach snipers that this is a reasonable use. (The myth goes on to claim, colorfully, that the USMC teaches snipers that aiming at personnel is verboten but aiming at equipment is okay - and dog tags, helmets, and uniforms qualify as equipment. Cute but counterfactual.) In my defense, it was a member of the Canadian Forces that told me so, and I had the sense to look it up before putting it on any page. --Andrew 20:45, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

The geneva conventions rarely deal with weapons themselves. They usually deal with rules of war and treatment of combatants/non-combatants. The Hague Accords, which are different, deal with weapons and ammunition. So if you see someone mention that the Geneva Convention forbids the military use of hollowpoints (for instance), that is a dead giveaway of ignorance.

please look here: http://styrheim.weblogg.no/100204222411_the_legality_of_125mm_multipurpo.html

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Does anybody know anything about Hiram Maxim? I think he invented the first effective MG but I'm not sure.

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A few points:

Regarding morality...questioned: There exists a military "urban legend" that it is unlawful under the Laws of Armed Conflict to deliberately target personnel with .50 cal weapons. It is untrue.

GPMG is not a specific weapon, but a class of machine guns designed to be used as either LMG or MMG.

Hiram Maxim was pretty famous in the nineteenth century, and invented heaps of stuff as well as the first self-powered machine gun, including the firearm silencer, improved light bulbs and an early airplane.

A few other well known MGs apart from those listed above include:

• Russian RPK
• Russian RPD
• Russian PKM
• Russian DShK
• German MG34
• German MG3
• American BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle)
• American Lewis gun
• French Chauchat
• Italian Breda
• Japanese Type 92 "Woodpecker"

The article should mention that in military usage, "machine gun" does not include assault rifles or submachine guns, and that such usage by journalists is very annoying to soldiers 8^) --Roger 13 Aug 2003

Almost as annoying as "semiautomatic assault rifle" is to anyone who knows better. --squadfifteen, 23/11/05

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Can anyone conifrm what I've read about the development of the .50 M1917? I've read it originated when Pres Roosevelt's son (Lt. Elliot?) fired a .30 that was unable to penetrate Ger a/c armor, & was KIA as a result. Trekphiler 01:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

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"Ah, yes. My apologies. It turns out to be a common myth; there is indeed no problem with them under the Geneva conventions, and some armies do teach snipers that this is a reasonable use. (The myth goes on to claim, colorfully, that the USMC teaches snipers that aiming at personnel is verboten but aiming at equipment is okay - and dog tags, helmets, and uniforms qualify as equipment. Cute but counterfactual.) In my defense, it was a member of the Canadian Forces that told me so, and I had the sense to look it up before putting it on any page. --"Andrew 20:45, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

My cousin recently competled basic traingin or whatever and he told me that his drill instructor told him that but i dont no about any others though(ForeverDEAD 22:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC))

Modusponens (talk) 16:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC) The stuff about California laws and the term "assault rifle" doesn't seem neutral to me - it looks like it's trying to make a political point about gun laws.

Tracer - new??

Does anyone have backup material for the comment: A newer intuitive aiming system, favored by the Israelis is to alternate solid and tracer rounds, so shooters can walk the fire into the target. I have heard about this going back to WWII, as well as in many armies, not just Israel. Any opinions on modifiying it? User:Magicmike

According to our own article on Tracer ammunition, it's been used a long time and is standard in "machine guns". If this statement makes any sense at all, it must be restricted to light machineguns, or daytime use, or something. Probably should go. --Andrew 06:23, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Aimed fire is preferable to "walking fire" using tracers, especially in ground mounted machineguns. The use of tracers in daylight, and especially during darkness tends to advertise the position of the firer, and tends to cause the firer to become an intense bullet magnet. The optics available on Armored Fighting vehicles are typically efficient enough that the tracer becomes unecessary. Since most American .30 tracers burn out at around 900 meters, it is often useful to the tank crew to range with tracer ammunition. Some vehicles, and uses like the Bradley Port Weapons do lend themselves to walking fire.

James Baker USA (ret)

Contradiction

The introduction states that: "Such automatic weapons with a caliber of 20 mm or larger are generally referred to as autocannons."

while the overview states: "A fully-automatic firearm with a bullet caliber of more than 12.7mm (0.5 inch) is called an automatic cannon"

I have no idea - which is correct?

I don't know either. I suspect it varies -- .50cal is universally a machine gun, 20mm is universally an autocannon, while stuff in between probably varies. --Carnildo 05:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

It's anything over 20 mm that's a cannon, that being the smallest calibre that conventionally uses explosive shells (partly for practical reasons, and partly for legal ones). The confusion probably arose because there is only one relatively common calibre in this range, that being the Warsaw pact 14.5 mm — and it's not all that common. The 14.5 mm doesn't have explosive projectiles and is always considered to be a HMG. I've corrected the article. -- Securiger 16:09, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I hate to throw this wrench in but, the Mk-19MOD3 is considered a Grenade MachineGun. Also, the M-203 is considered a "Small Arm" Even though the military definition of a small arm is any weapon with a caliber .50 Cal and smaller.

Heavy machine guns for sniping?

The article currently claims that heavy machine guns can be used for sniping. I find this hard to believe (but have no evidence contrdicting it). Perhaps it is confusing them with .50 caliber anti-materiel sniper rifles? --Andrew 17:32, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

No, Carlos Hathcock made a special mounting bracket for an M2 machine gun, and managed to set a world record for longest kill. However, just recently, some Canadian (I'm not going to look him up; he's in wikipedia, so find him yourself) just set the new record with a .50 caliber anti-material rifle, so both options are viable.

No, it really refers to sniping. The tripod is a very stable mount, and the short-recoil action provides minimal and consistent disturbance to the point of aim during the cycle. Because the cyclic rate is rather slow, by careful trigger operation it is relatively easy to fire a single shot. So prior to the recent development of dedicated .50 cal sniper rifles, a small number of individuals tried mounting a telescopic sight on the barrel and sniping with them. The best known example being GySgt Carlos Hathcock (at 2250 m), although it was previously done in Korea by a British officer (whose name I forget). However, it was not by any means common. -- Securiger 13:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Regarding sniping with the M2: I have been told by a living, published, Marine historian that the M2 was used as a sniper weapon in Korea in the days before the Chinese intervention. The 1st Marine Division was deployed in the mountainous terrain of North Korea, ostensibly mopping up the remains of the North Korean Army, although finding many indications of Chinese presence. Enemy personnel were often seen at extreme range, e.g. on the hillsides across valleys, as were caves, bunkers, huts, etc. These were sometimes engaged by single .50 rounds from tripod mounted guns. The practice was to take a ranging shots at the door, trail, cave, etc., until the target was registered, then wait for the opposition to show himself. I have no reports of a success ratio with this technique. As any mountain goat or sheep hunter will attest, a lot can happen to a bullet as it crosses a valley, and GI ammunition was certainly not National Match. My information comes from a good primary source, a company grade officer who was at the end of the road at Yudam-ni and was still walking when the regiment the sea. Seattle Jan 11, 2006

Historical and Technical Inaccuracy

There is a lot of it in this article especially in the History section. Here are some specifics:

Some weapons, such as the AR-15/M16, integrate the piston with the bolt. Others, such as the M15 and AK patterns, attach the piston to a bolt carrier that unlocks and operates the bolt.

The M16 does not have a piston, it operates on the principle of direct gas impingement. Gas is tapped off the barrel and directed back onto the bolt to force it open and cycle the action. The M16 also does have a bolt carrier. A better way to break assault rifles down is probably when they have operating rods (op rods) like the AKs or FAL or not like the HK G3 or M16.

Submachine guns (e.g. the Thompson submachine gun, or 'Tommy gun') as well as lighter machine guns (the BAR for example) saw their first major use in WW1 along with heavy use of large-caliber machine guns.

The Thompson was designed for WWI but the war ended before they saw service. A better example of a WWI submachine gun would be the Sten. Also most heavy machine guns used in WWI were .30 caliber, the same as the BAR. Perhaps this should be altered to "the extensive use of heavy machine guns" which would be more factually correct and maintain the distinction the original author seemed to be trying for.

Design features of machine guns were applied to automatic handguns, "machine pistols", such as the Luger (although these did not yet have full automatic fire).

The Mauser Broomhandle would be a better choice here. While it wasn't it wasn't full-auto either, it at least had a detachable stock.

During the inter-war years, many new designs were developed, such as the Browning 50-caliber, in 1933, which, along with the others were used in World War II.

This sentence is a grammatical trainwreck. Historically, the Browning M2 .50 caliber machine gun was designed at the end of WWI and began service in the late 1910s or early 1920s, not 1933. A better example of an inter-war design might be the Bren or one of the early German MG series guns.

If you think those should be changed, then feel free to do so. --Carnildo 28 June 2005 21:17 (UTC)

I altered the "MG & wire led to stalemate" piece. I've heard air recce was responsible, by making hidden movement impossible. Given that, and the power of QF arty like the M1897 75mm, I'd say attributing it to MG is a bit strong. --squadfifteen, 23/11/05

Does the Villar Perosa merit a mention? The SMG article lists it, but I've read it was tactically an LMG, despite using a 9mm pistol round (& the SMG article lists it as an a/c weapon). --squadfifteen, 23/11/05

"A better example of a WWI submachine gun would be the Sten"

The Sten is a WW2 era weapon that didn't exist until the 1940s.

Changed Multi-shot "guns" to "weapons" in history judging that guns did not exist back in the 1st century.

Technical Nit-picks

The article seems to imply that all closed bolt guns are positively locked. Many are not. An example would be closed bolt versions of the UZI.

Next, the description of the typical cartrige ejection system attributes the function of two separate pieces, the extractor and the ejector, to one piece who's description makes little sense.

Not having edited before, I figure I'll wait for comments before making a change. --ming 68.99.181.114 06:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

If you think you can do a better job of describing things than the current version does, go ahead. --Carnildo 08:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate/redundant information

I just noticed that the info contained in the introduction (which looks more like a whole article itself) is basically duplicated info from the more detailed sections down below. The introduction shouldn't be too long, and it shouldn't contain so much specific information, especially when all the same information is already in the article with better writing. The article also needs reordering of the sections. --Squalla 20:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A introduction is always going to cover somewhat similar material, though it might better to split it off into a overview. No opinion on re-ordering though. Ve3 21:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

More History (specifically precursors to the machine gun)

The article states a precursor for LDV's original machine gun design

"Multi-shot guns have a long development, going as far back to the 1st century, with plans for a multi-shot arrow gun by Greek engineer Hero of Alexandria."

but neglects to mention the Chu-Ko-Nu repeating crossbow which was a machine gun for arrows of sorts. --ColourBurst 06:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

positions and tactics

Say, are there articles where there is a place to put this image Image:Shanghai1937KMT machine gun nest.jpg? It's quite a distinctive picture, as I have not seen the likes of it before (as compared to say, trench warfare or a person lying prone) ... was looking on an article desribing defensive tactics where this would be useful. It does say a lot about the often heard, "a machine gun nest! Quick, throw a grenade!" type of scenario, or that nest one can't seem to be able to identify accurately. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 20:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation for being designed for inaccuracy?

"To this end, most light machine guns and general purpose machine guns are not designed for high accuracy, as would be expected of a rifle. Most are designed with a small degree of inaccuracy, referred to as the "cone of fire", because the rounds spread out as they travel towards the target area, rather like the spread of a shotgun, but continuous."

I find this to be a dubious claim. By what mechanism does the author suggest that machine guns are deliberately made inaccurate to increase their cone of fire? And for that matter, you have a "cone of fire" for automatic weapons designed to be accurate - it's inherent to rapid fire.

In order to deliberately make a gun less accurate, you would have to introduce a mechanism, or loosen the tolerances to the point of creating inaccuracy. Could someone provide evidence that these factors are considered and even encouraged in machine gun design?

A distinction should be made between single-shot accuracy and a cone of fire created by recoil. Machine guns are typically more accurate than their rifle counterparts, and, for that matter, have a smaller cone of fire and are less affected by recoil. But in either case, you're talking about two seperate things. SenorBeef 05:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

First machine gun contradiction

In the introduction, it states:

The first machine gun was constructed in Britain, 1913, 2 months before the first world war. It was designed several hundred years prior by Leonardo Da Vinci.

Later, the article says:

The first true machine gun was invented in 1881 by Hiram Maxim.

I believe the latter is accurate, the former makes no sense, and is grammatically poor. Boomcoach 20:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the first statement. As you said, it makes no sense. --Carnildo 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The article is very good, and I did not want to step on the current editors. Excellent article. Boomcoach 14:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

hai i am NIRMAL, can u say the mechanim of guns```````` and how does the maxium forse occurs inside the gun and that it pushes the bullet outside ......... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.153.215 (talk) 09:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Machine Gun Legal Definition

On 17 July, I added a description of the Washington D.C. definition of machine gun to an existing description of the US legal definition in the introduction. This description was removed by an unregistered user who described it as specious (description was accurate and did not attempt to overstate the case, listing info from D.C press releases and news articles about the case) and as not germain [sic] to a generalized discussion.

The first point baffles me. The details were all verifiable. Google's cache has expired, but the initial press release by the mayor's office was shown by the Google cache to have been modified, lending confusion to the District's definition. However, I have been able to locate a copy of the original press release with the wording about machine guns at the D.C Office of Secretary's site. Obviously, the wording should be changed to recognize this more reliable source instead of the expired Google cache, but this does not change any facts presented in the addition to this article.

The second point is also unsupported. As is already demonstrated in the article's inclusion of a legal definition of machine gun, the legal definition is fundamental to categorizing weapons since restrictions are based on such definitions. When D.C. defines machine guns in contradiction to U.S law, it has legal ramifications for gun owners. Information about such contradictions is part of the discussion of machine guns and should be freely available. Such information should probably not belong in the introduction, however. I would like to hear suggestions on creating a new section or adding the D.C. information to an existing section.Kylos h (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Definition?

The first paragraph seems to contradict its self since it defines a machine gun as "fully-automatic" and then goes on to say that non-automatic "manually operated, for example, by turning a hand crank" guns were "machine guns". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. For the last time, for all those who read this, a Gatling gun is NOT a machine gun. Would someone please fix that in this article?!?! Because I know that would take a while. Because, by definition, a machine gun has to be "FULLY" automatic, and by using a hand crank or even a motor, the Gatling requires movement from the operator or motor for EACH shot, as opposed to only once. Come on, people, can't you tell a contradictory sentence when you see one? Eiffel56 (talk) 06:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

photo text

"A model of a typical entrenched German machine gunner in World War I. He is operating an MG08, wearing a Stahlhelm and cuirass to protect him from shell fragments, and protected by rows of barbed wire and sandbags." This is misleading, the cuirass was meant to protect primarily against bullets afaik. Lastdingo (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Dates

At the begginning of the article, the date for the maxim gun is 1884, and in the middle of the article it is 1881.75.105.246.92 (talk) 14:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)