Talk:2003 invasion of Iraq

Death of civillians: Iraq Body Count vs Lancet study

The IraqBody Count figures should be considered as a minimum base line figure for the total number of casualties, as they rely almost exclusively on english language news media, excluding a whole swathe of arabic language news. http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060125_paved_with_good.php IBC is clear that there are inherent problems with its methodology. In response to the Lancet study, IBC pointed out:

   "We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording." (www.iraqbodycount.net/press/archive.php, PR10, November 7, 2004)

But this humility is not consistently expressed. IBC's website also makes quite grand claims: "if journalism is the first draft of history, then this dossier may claim to be an early historical analysis of the military intervention's known human costs". (http://reports.iraqbodycount.org/a_dossier_of _civilian_casualties_2003-2005.pdf)

So what are the sources behind the database informing this "early historical analysis"? IBC reveals that these are "predominantly Western", with the "most prevalent" being "the major newswires and US and UK newspapers". (http://reports.iraqbodycount.org/ a_dossier_of_civilian_casualties_2003-2005.pdf).

The report added:

   "We have not made use of Arabic or other non English language sources, except where these have been published in English. The reasons are pragmatic. We consider fluency in the language of the published report to be a key requirement for accurate analysis, and English is the only language in which all team members are fluent. It is possible that our count has excluded some victims as a result." (Ibid) This is a remarkable explanation for such a serious omission, particularly in light of the immense media attention afforded to the IBC figures.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.40.144.42 (talk) 10:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC) 

Article is highly vandalised

Could somebody rewrite it please? All these "Polish divisions", "Italian and Danish troops advancing toward Baghdad", "U.S. 7th Infantry and 5th Armored Divisions" are funny, but don't have any connection to real events of March-April 2003. 195.248.189.182 (talk) 10:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the best response to the vandalism is to put the page under semi-protection; most of the vandalism comes from unregistered editors. Spartacusprime (talk) 20:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Somebody do something with that ?

The story about polish, danish, italian and spanish divisions fighting in Iraq is still untouched. Even worse - somebody put Danemark to the coalition forces on top of the article. I won't repair it myself, couse my english is weak. Nobody is interested in so extensive acts of vandalism on english wiki ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.129.69.2 (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, nobody cares. This article is totally useless. Maybe I'll add some stories about Mexican troops storming Baghdad later. Or something about twenty Russian airborne divisions assaulting Kuwait after beginning of hostilities. And still there will be no reaction. Hey, is anybody home? 195.248.189.182 (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I've removed Denmark and the Philippines from the list in the infobox. If we have to put Denmark (with 50 soldiers), why we don't see Tonga (with 55) then ? I've left the kurdish militias though, it's quite possible if they have participated in combat. - Tourbillon ^A ? 11:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

social studies assignment.

why did the 2003 war in iraq start? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.56.1.226 (talk) 00:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Because Saddam was making nukes, he supported Al Qaida, he housed Al Qaida, and probably the most prominent reason (and this is just a rumor), he got his hands on some Swiss printing presses and was printing U.S. currency. Don't take my word for it, look these things up.Prussian725 (talk) 14:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Saddam was making nukes? You knew this and you didn't tell anybody?Pirchlogan (talk) 02:53, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

To make money --89.139.102.28 (talk) 01:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah, we are definitely making money over there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.218.37.112 (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The War in Iraq is still shrouded in mystery. We know now there were no WMD's, no links between Saddam and Al Qaida, and that Saddam's weapons program had been all but destroyed after Operation Desert Fox in the late 90s. Much of the original evidence to go to war was flagged and looked on very suspiciously even in 2002-2003, but that is to the analysts and not the policy makers. In August of 2002 Cheny lied and said there was "no doubt" Saddam had WMD's. The real reason has become more clear, The Project for the New American Century, a NeoConservative group led by people like Wolftitz and Feith, two insiders of the administration had advocated for an invasion of Iraq since the failure to push all the way to Baghdad in the First Gulf War. After 9/11, Cheney and Rumsfeld took on neoconservative views and Bush sided with them and against pressing concerns from then Secretary of State and only veteran inside the administration Colin Powell. This is apparent in the Bush doctrine, decreed in 2002 that states the US finds will launch pre-emptive strikes if it finds it necessary, to prevent the enemy from attaining the initiative. Any evidence pertraining to WMD's and a Saddam-Al Qaida link were really just used to sell the war and less as a reason to go to war. NeoConservatives do not believe war is a last resort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.160.32.149 (talk) 23:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, shithead, please also mention that a majority of democrats, including both clintons, gore, kerry, et al, either voted for the war or declared that iraq was involved in WMD production/research -- and they based this on the same intel that mcbushitlercheneyburton had. and it is spelled cheney, you deceitful buffoon. and if you're capable of actual research, then go look at ALL the reasons forwarded in 2002 for the war (as supported by the democrat party) and elaborate in the spirit of honesty, to correct your paranoid blatherings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.18.61 (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow, just wow. Thats pretty funny.

That "majority of democrats, including both Clintons, Gore, Kerry, et al" voted for the war on the same information...well, it has no impact on the fact Bush knew the information was false, falsified and in most instances an outright lie in the face of information they knew was contrary. Sorry, but thats a pretty sad, ignorance, moronic and pathetic attempt to blame others for believing a lie because they thought false evidence presented to them by their PRESIDENT was correct. Thats like blaming the jury when they are giving evidence that you killed a bunch of innocent children when they were given evidence of fingerprints, photographic evidence, witness accounts and the motive all pointing to you but it was a conspiracy and you were innocent. No, sorry to disapoint. The blame still falls completely on Bush and his administration for giving FALSE evidence they KNEW to be false so they could start this war on trumped up lies.

You don't get to blame "those damn democrats" for having the "audacity" to believe the president wasn't knowingly lying to them to start a war. Haha, try again. 143.238.215.136 (talk) 10:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC) Harlequin

Picture of the Bucket needed

I saw a documentary about the war and saw some photos of the vehicle called the bucket which is like a big wheel barrel that offers little to no protection to US troops that was used at least in the start of the war - thanks --89.139.102.28 (talk) 01:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Stats.

Some of the statistics in this article are questionable. One in the first section jumped out at me - it says that more than 60% of Americans approved of using military force in Iraq. The statement is followed by two statistics from the same poll that state that more than 60% of Americans supported diplomatic efforts. I looked into the CBS poll. It appears that only 31% of Americans supported military action in Iraq. Perhaps this should be changed and the rest of the entry checked for similar errors... 68.161.114.27 (talk) 16:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What date was your CBS poll taken on? WDW Megaraptor (talk) 01:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Terminology

The opening to this article states that the invasion was the "begining of the currect Iraq War". This information should be rewritten to reflect that the invasion was the begining of the most recent Iraq War. The Unitied States is no longer at war with the Iraqi government. The US forces that are currently there are for security and reconstruction purposes, not unlike post WWII Europe or Japan. 156.101.1.5 (talk) 19:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Military history of the war

This article's military history section is a bit slim, I propose section 7 be expanded to the following sub-sections:

Invasion
Dora Farms Strike
Opening attack (crossing the border, Umm Qasr, oil fields, Basra)
Air Campaign
Central Iraq (Nasiriyah, Najaf, Karbala, etc)
Northern Front (Kurdish region)
Special Operations (Western Desert ops, covert recon missions, etc)
Fall of Baghdad (Karbala Gap, Baghdad, Tikrit and transition to guerrilla war)WDW Megaraptor (talk) 22:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Move "War Crimes Against Civilians" section

The section of this article "War crimes against civilians" deals almost exclusively with incidents that took place during the Battle of Fallujah in 2004, which took place outside the time frame of this article. This section should be moved or deleted. WDW Megaraptor (talk) 17:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. There is already a war crimes section, but this section didn't fall into it at all. It mainly talks about the US use of phosphorous as a weapon, and even mentions that the US doesn't recognize it as a banned weapon. Civilians that get killed are called collateral damage. There was no mention of war crimes at all, and any credible mention of war crimes against civilians can go into the war crimes section, so there is no reason to rewrite the section. Also, failed wp:npov and wp:v. --Abusing (talk) 19:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thats nice. Sorry, the US dosn't get to decide what is and what isn't a war crime because they are doing it. Especially not on wikipedia. 143.238.215.136 (talk) 10:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC) Harlequin

I'm disputing the neutrality of this article

This article seems to have way too much content intended to castigate the US or bring up percieved crimes compared to actual coverage of the subject. Jtrainor (talk) 23:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

and yet, no-one moans when atrocities by the Iraquis are listed in the article. I'll assume you missed that part, and that you are not trying to tip the article in favour of one side over another, specifically the American forces. JackorKnave (talk) 05:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I want the thing to be balanced. Spurious claims of atrocities are not balanced. Jtrainor (talk) 17:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

That's nice. Reread the article and see if no atrocities by the Iraquis are mentioned.JackorKnave (talk) 23:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Scanning through it the balance to me appears to be as follows - 1) a small section here about alleged US atrocities, relating only to Fallujah; 2) a large and wide-ranging section headed "War Crimes" here which is a long list of alleged abuses by Iraqi forces in various places, mostly directed against individual members of the invading US/UK forces. So who was responsible for the deaths of all the 1000s of (unnamed) civilians killed during the invasion itself? Many were killed by cluster bombs, random shooting by troops etc. See this article, for one. Unless we believe that the US & UK military are organisationally and genetically incapable of killing civilians or committing war crimes, the fact that the article doesn't mention any such incidents demonstrates that it is if anything whitewashed and biased in favour of the US rather than against it. In any event I'm not sure tagging an article as not neutral and then vaguely saying not much more than that you don't think it's balanced helps. Isn't that referred to as "drive by tagging", per WP:NPOVD? --Nickhh (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about balance, it's about facts. In the case of war crimes, it means war crimes. That's it. Not by your definition, that's just what it covers. If you can improve the article by adding factual information about war crimes, whatever the side, please do so, if you can list a reliable source. Remember, this article will only cover war crimes from during the period from March 20, 2003 to May 1, 2003. Any war crimes after that can be found on the Iraq War page. Civilian casualties do not qualify as war crimes, we're looking for documented war crimes. As long as the information has a reliable source, it is relevant. If you think the tone of the article has a non-neutral slant, feel free to improve it as you see fit, as long as you do not delete sourced information. The war crimes commited by the US or Coalition all took place after the period of time this article covers. It is not an intentional lack of information to slant the article, it is a well written section that describes facts. If you feel that certain information is being left out intentionally, feel free to add it to the section.--Abusing (talk) 05:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting we invent stuff, I am well aware that any additions would have to be properly sourced and identified as being alleged war crimes, that took place during the relevant period. My point was merely a general one in response to the neutrality tagging and allegations of lack of balance posted above by another editor (it wasn't me that raised the issue). I simply observed that "if anything" the lack of balance appears to be the other way from that claimed. Nor did I say that the killing of civilians is a war crime per se - I very specifically talked, for example, about the use of cluster bombs etc. I guess I or someone else might get round to doing a bit of research and pulling some sources together, so that any relevant information can be added at some point. --Nickhh (talk) 10:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think people's complaints of bias are primarily directed at the war crimes section. Also, the use of cluster bombs is not a war crime because the United States has not signed the treaty banning cluster bombs, and the Convention on Cluster Munitions was not adopted until 2008.WDW Megaraptor (talk) 12:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Well actually the editor who posted the neutrality tag (I note that it has since been removed) was very clearly complaining above about the article bringing up "perceived [US] crimes" and "spurious claims of [US] atrocities". On the cluster bombs point - a) I like the idea that war crimes are not committed by a nation's armed forces when that nation hasn't signed up to the relevant conventions or legal frameworks (on that basis a country could claim it was doing nothing wrong by executing POWs, if it had never agreed not to); and b) even prior to the Convention aimed at banning them altogether, the use of cluster bombs in built up areas - which would have the effect of causing indiscriminate civilian casualties - was widely considered to be a war crime. Anyway as discussed, if there are reliable sources alleging or documenting war crimes by US, UK etc forces, and I or someone else gets round to digging them up, these can and should go on. --Nickhh (talk) 13:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Just remember that what is a "crime" is determined by what the law defines as illegal. If there is no law then there is no crime.WDW Megaraptor (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

You can commit a morally impermissable crime.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.160.32.149 (talk) 04:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Historic accuracy and neutrality are vacant

I was there for the first 18 months, and many events need to be reviewed vs the released records of the invasion. Also, this article skewers the policy-makers who are admittedly in the wrong at times, but fails to show the positive affects of the actions in the region. Also remains negative like a liberal college student about the governmental figures in relation. 71.227.244.97 (talk) 04:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC) Ghost 71.227.244.97 (talk) 04:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"show the positive affects of the actions in the region". Positive effects of an unprovoked offensive war? Would that be USA ensuring control of the oil resources and thousands of civilian muslims/arabs killed monthly? It might surprise you, but some don't call that positive. 79.138.113.94 (talk) 12:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

What a slime ball- I'm sick of you conspirators saying we went in for oil- we have 2 trillion barrels of untouched oil in our own country why would we wage a resource war? it doesn't make sense.

unprovoked? Saddam violated 17 resolutions 160 times. provided 25,000 bounties to promote suicide bombings in Gaza...thats pretty provoking.

Thousands killed monthly by who? please ensure you make note of who killed them, less than 9,000 are attributed to friendly fire innocents, so the 200,000 civilians killed (2008 Iraqi ministry of health- not that damn freak of a 'report' by Lance and his busings buddies that inflated the number so highly had been killed by insurgents and terrorist attacks.

75.179.172.189 (talk) 04:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

"we have 2 trillion barrels of untouched oil in our own country" - Even if you actually would have that, far less is accessible for economy or enviromental reasons. If this was not the case, the US wouldnt import >90% of the oil it uses...

"unprovoked? Saddam violated 17 resolutions 160 times..." - USA government brakes at least as many every 24 hours worldwide. So in your opinion anybody is at any time fully in their right to invade and/or bomb the USA, replace it's government, and generally create an instability that would lead to 100.000s of killed American civilians yearly?

"Thousands killed monthly by..." - The chaotic war situation created by USA (yet again...) starting an unlawful war against another country.

79.138.113.94 (talk) 04:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Real problem is it says the US had 248,000 soldiers in the invasion... As far as I know we had about 100,000 less than that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.160.32.149 (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead/overview

Any reason why these sections are split? It would seem to make more sense to combine the information in each of them, edited down a little, into a single introduction section. For example currently the main lead cites a poll about the attitude of the US public to the war, and the "overview" includes detail about world wide opposition. Not only do these two points hang together conceptually, but the war was hugely controversial (to say the least) and this should be noted properly in any lead. Equally the current lead mentions that no WMD were found, and then repeats this (with a few weaselly attempts to suggest otherwise) in the "overview". It's not as if the lead is absurdly outsized for an article of this length, and merging the two sections would hardly make it much bigger anyway once any repetition is removed. --Nickhh (talk) 15:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality on "War Crimes"

currently, the "War Crimes" section only list events that portray the iraqis' as the the ones committing warcrimes. some of the issues are like "Sergant Who" has been shot dead or "Jessica Lyn" has been raped.

like wtf? guys? did someone at the whitehouse wrote this section or what? Shaoquan (talk) 02:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources documenting Coalition war crimes during the period from March 20, 2003 to May 1, 2003 please post.WDW Megaraptor (talk) 06:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as far as I know any war crimes committed by Coalition forces took place after this time period, and belong in the article, I believe the link is, Iraq War--Abusing (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

This article says that one "war crime" was showing U.S. prisoners on T.V. I remember CNN, among others, showing Iraqi prisoners on TV on numerous occasions. Why is this not mentioned?

Iraqi death toll

Someone just reverted edits to the Iraqi casualties part in the infobox. Surely 7000 Iraqi can't have died. Estimates say 600,000 have died, possibly more. Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 22:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Someones don it again! Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 12:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

This article deals only with the period from March 20 to May 1, 2003.WDW Megaraptor (talk) 16:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

commanders

under commanders political leaders are listed. This is not keeping with the general format of the rest of Wikipedia:

Many battle and operation pages list actual uniformed military commanders as the 'commanders' while it is common for broader war pages like WW2, WW1, Iraq War to list elected or otherwise in charge political leaders.

This is not a broad war page as it goes at length to describe specific military operations. Political leaders ought to be distinguished from military commanders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.74.65 (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

error?

"Although some remnants of pre-1991 production were found after the end of the war..." What? Isn't the war ongoing? --Simpsons fan 66 05:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

a major conclusion in this article conflicts with other Wiki article

This article states, "Since the invasion, U.S. and British claims concerning Iraqi weapons programs and links to terrorist organizations have been discredited. While the debate of whether Iraq intended to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons in the future remains open, no WMDs have been found in Iraq since the invasion despite comprehensive inspections lasting more than 18 months.[63] In Cairo, on February 24, 2001, Colin Powell had predicted as much, saying "He [Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."[64] Similarly, assertions of significant operational links[citation needed] between Iraq and al Qaeda have largely been discredited by the intelligence community, and Secretary Powell himself eventually admitted he had no incontrovertible proof.[65

In fact 500 WMDs have been found. See this Wikipedia article here that cites the Iraq Survey Group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Mass_Destruction_in_Iraq - Beginning in 2003, the ISG had uncovered remnants of Iraq's 1980s-era WMD programs. On June 21, 2006 Rick Santorum claimed that "we have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons", citing a declassified June 6 letter to Pete Hoekstra saying that since the 2003 invasion, a total of "approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent" had been found scattered throughout the country.[88][89] Also, the article states, "On July 2008, 550 metric tonnes of "yellowcake" the last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program, a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium, arrived in Montreal as part of a top-secret U.S. operation. This transport of the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment, included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a voyage across two oceans. The Iraqi government sold the yellowcake to a Canadian uranium producer, Cameco Corp., in a transaction the official described as worth "tens of millions of dollars."[90

Given this finding there can be no doubt a nuclear weapons program did exist. Signed slipnfal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slipnfal (talk • contribs) 15:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If you look at the Iraq Survey Group's wiki article, well Kay is saying exactly the opposite. ""I don't think they existed," commented Kay".

The yellowcake sold to the canadian producer was useless for Iraqi regime of 2003 for the only reason they needed an effective complex to change it to an effective nuclear bomb, and this complex they didn't have it anymore.

The statement of "500 weapons munitions" is really different of 500WMDs as you want to say. Weapons munitions is not a weapon of mass destruction.

Plus the article is saying "contain degraded mustard" so in military slang, it does mean useless because those munition needed a new conditioning and Iraq did not have in 2003 another efficient complex to do it.

Well everybody knew that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program, the matter was all "was this program still effective in 2003?" ISG answered briefly with a "it did not".

90.9.155.95 (talk) 03:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"voters, once deceived, tend to stay that way despite all evidence."

Any objection to including this? If it was from some left-wing magazine or a blog or an Op-Ed I wouldn't, but this is Factcheck.org we're talking about. And there's is an important and notable study with a post-Iraq war retrospective viewpoint. 24.32.204.89 (talk) 22:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Not really possible according to the chart of Wikipedia. Factcheck already had criticism concerning another article. 90.9.155.95 (talk) 03:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Halliburten

I think That there should be a section about how Halliburten is making money off the Iraq War and many other companys making money off it. This was is corupt and so is The Government of North America. I think that this artical really needs that Information :) Track Seven (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)