Talk:MacOS
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Proposal to end consistently re-occurring pronunciation issue
Long discussion on 'Proposal to end consistently re-occurring pronunciation issue'
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Reason for proposal: This proposal is brought prior to any dispute resolution in the hope of finally ending this pronunciation issue once and for all simply by putting in a clarification using only a handful of words in the article straight away. The bit dug way down in the 'versions' section should be chopped as it doesn't seem to work at present. Other issues: This article has more pressing issues to be sorted as evidenced by its recent failure at a GA re-assessment. Therefore the aim is to not stick to your guns and wiki-lawyer guidelines, but rather to compromise and come to a consensus which differs from the status quo. Current: Mac OS X (Template:PronEng)[1] is a line of computer...
1) Mac OS X (pronounced /mæk oʊ ɛs tɛn/;[1] incorrectly as /mæk oʊ ɛs ɛks/)[2] is a line of computer...
MFNickster:
Althepal:
Warren:
ZooCrewMan:
Dravick:
Dravick (and others, of course), how do you feel about having something really short in the lead that clarifies that the X means the roman numeral "ten", but not explicitly address the pronunciation issue? We might also have to say that it replaces Mac OS 9, but by doing this, the progression from 9 to 10 can be inferred by the reader without belabouring the point. Warren -talk- 03:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
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The pronounciation issue is silly. Most likely Mac intended it to be OS 10. They replaced the 10 with the roman numeral X, for aesthetic reassons, it looked cool. That led to OS X being pronouced as the letter X, not the number, as in Malcom X's last name. As WP is an encyclopedia not a grammar guide the question is whether or not the pronounciation of X as eks, not 10, is common enough to be worth noting. The question is not if it is correct, but if for cultural reasons it is worth noting, in the same manner that grammatically incorrect slang is worth noting. It might also be noted that the letter X and the roman numeral are the same character, and it was that way since roman times. X and 10 are the same character in the world we live in. If you call something OS X you are being purposely ambiguous. At around the same time OS X was introduced I think there was all that Malcom X stuff going on, with kids wearing hats with big Xs on them. I suspect that Mac was influenced by that also. So are there enough people saying OS eks to warrant a mention? Did Mac use the X instead of 10 because of all those Malcom X hats? I would sugggest a foot note to the pronounciation explaining that some actual people at the turn of the 21st century interpretted the X as eks. Geo8rge (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Moving forward with "roman numeral" in the lead
Okay, after brainstorming for a couple of days, I've taken a whack at updating the lead section to incorporate the ideas we've built up.
- Mac OS X (pronounced /mæk oʊ ɛs tɛn/, as the 'X' is a Roman numeral) is a line of computer operating systems developed, marketed, and sold by Apple Inc., and since 2002 has been included with all new Macintosh computer systems. It is the successor to Mac OS 9, the final release of the "classic" Mac OS, which had been Apple's primary operating system since 1984.
Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10"and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is a Unix-based operating system, built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple's purchase of the company in early 1996. Its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 is certified UNIX 03 while running on Intel processors.
I tend to approach lead-writing by putting two "facts" into each sentence, like this:
- It's an operating system / Apple made it.
- It replaces Mac OS 9 and Mac OS more generally / Its predecessor was around since the mid-1980s.
- The X means 10 / The core is Unix-based and was bought from NeXT.
- Leopard is the most recent version / It is certified UNIX 03.
When using this approach, you have to be concise with each fact, and every sentence is high-value and informative. Even if a person doesn't read any further than the lead, you want them to go away with some of the biggest points, and make them feel like they've learned something.
Anyways, comments welcome... Warren -talk- 20:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well I've changed to what I think would address the issue best (directly above, not the article itself as there's no agreement yet). The reason for my change is the first thing seen is pronunciation and then you're forced to read on to find the info on Roman numerals which is aimed at avoiding constant discussions by the reading public who are unlikely to be so meticulous. I still think we could make the point straight away without hurting the fantastic approach you use for leads. We agreed to keep it simple, and I think we can be even more brief (see my revision). If the point isn't made sooner then I don't think we've accomplished much of a compromise.
- Overall I agree with MFNickster and Althepal in saying scrap pronunciation altogether, ie tell readers it's a Roman numeral and let them sort it out. However if we can compromise and make the Roman numeral point along with the pronunciation, then fantastic as everyone should be happy and hopefully this is done with forever. If not I think we should consider the other proposal (remove pronunciation) as it would seem to have consensus and it seems to work for Simple English Wikipedia. Nja247 20:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we should scrap the pronunciation guide. We're supposed to use it in Wikipedia articles when the pronunciation isn't obvious or is contentious. But, pronunciation guides are only supposed to say what the correct way of saying it is, not why. I don't get the reasoning for putting that extra detail into the first sentence... why isn't the second sentence good enough? We do this in the Windows 2000 (it was released in 2000) and Windows XP (it stands for "experience") articles, why not here as well? Can't we at least get describing what it is out of the way before we delve into reasonings as to why it's named what it is? Warren -talk- 21:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but guidelines shouldn't be strictly applied when there's been such confusion. Every archive since its introduction into this article has contained queries on it. We'll put it to consensus on whether the current re-vision works, or if my alternative is preferred, or even scrap it. I think telling people the X is a Roman numeral acts as a good alternative and possibly more proper guide for them on pronunciation, which is why there's a good argument (and agreement by three of us) to be rid of it as is if need be. And I don't think adding seven words, one of which is an 'X', makes it a long parenthesis. Hell remove the parenthesis if need be. It's best for clarity to stick it all together, especially when it's seven (or six and a half) words. Nja247 05:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
- I preferred the first formulation of the proposition. I don't know about you guys, but I tend to skip over long parenthesis. Furthermore, it implements the idea of mentionning it in the lead in a natural way, without being the first thing mentioned in the article. Dravick (talk) 23:51, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the parenthesis is kind of superfluous when there's a citation to a source immediately following. YMMV. MFNickster (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
- I preferred the first formulation of the proposition. I don't know about you guys, but I tend to skip over long parenthesis. Furthermore, it implements the idea of mentionning it in the lead in a natural way, without being the first thing mentioned in the article. Dravick (talk) 23:51, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but guidelines shouldn't be strictly applied when there's been such confusion. Every archive since its introduction into this article has contained queries on it. We'll put it to consensus on whether the current re-vision works, or if my alternative is preferred, or even scrap it. I think telling people the X is a Roman numeral acts as a good alternative and possibly more proper guide for them on pronunciation, which is why there's a good argument (and agreement by three of us) to be rid of it as is if need be. And I don't think adding seven words, one of which is an 'X', makes it a long parenthesis. Hell remove the parenthesis if need be. It's best for clarity to stick it all together, especially when it's seven (or six and a half) words. Nja247 05:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we should scrap the pronunciation guide. We're supposed to use it in Wikipedia articles when the pronunciation isn't obvious or is contentious. But, pronunciation guides are only supposed to say what the correct way of saying it is, not why. I don't get the reasoning for putting that extra detail into the first sentence... why isn't the second sentence good enough? We do this in the Windows 2000 (it was released in 2000) and Windows XP (it stands for "experience") articles, why not here as well? Can't we at least get describing what it is out of the way before we delve into reasonings as to why it's named what it is? Warren -talk- 21:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- In my opinion, writing "Mac OS X (pronounced /mæk oʊ ɛs tɛn/, as the 'X' is a Roman numeral)" is just too long of an intro. Leaving the "as the 'X' is a Roman numeral" part out would still get the point across. But I still think it'd be best to leave out everything about how it's pronounced and why from the first sentence, working it in a better way into the article. I see that right now there is a sentence in the intro that explains what the X means, so I think there is no need to keep anything about it in the lead sentence. It's just not important enough. Althepal (talk) 18:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
- It may be alright I suppose so long as there's no more monthly complaints about it now. If there are then it should be removed completely, ie the pronunciation. Nja247 06:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Need to delete criticism sections from Description, redo/delete Description section
Need to delete imo inappropriate criticism sections from Description/redo Description section
Under the 1st section called "Description" it says:
" In 2003 and 2005, two Macworld editors expressed criticism of the permission scheme; Ted Landau called misconfigured permissions "the most common frustration" in Mac OS X,[19] while Rob Griffiths suggested that some users may even have to reset permissions every day, a process which can take up to 15 minutes.[20] More recently, another Macworld editor, Dan Frakes, called the procedure of repairing permissions vastly overused.[21] He argues that Mac OS X typically handles permissions properly without user interference, and resetting permissions should be tried only when problems emerge.[22]"
I don't think this belongs here. If you want to create a section for Criticism(or Criticism for the release it applies to) then fine but otherwise I think we should stick to the claimed features for the Description section if indeed the section is needed.
Secondly, under the section that starts "The most visible change was the Aqua theme." The description of Aqua is fine but I'd put Criticism of it in the Aqua section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_(user_interface)
Looking at the "Description" section as a whole vs other typical Wikipedia OS articles on say WIndows XP or Debian seems to make a case for getting rid of it entirely. It's half-way between describing features and Criticism that doesn't apply to every OS release. If I were quickly skimming this page I'd be under the impression that the filesystem for OS X may have permission problems and the interface of OS X is controversial.
I would propose Deleting the section entirely and moving the few Descriptions of the OS features into possibly the Introductory section. If you take away the criticism paragraphs and the OS market size paragraph then there are not many actual description sentences left. Those left can be put in the Intro, History, Features, and the aforementioned Criticism section.
Thoughts? Mesostinky (talk) 20:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ahh! This was discussed in depth and dealt with a while ago. The permissions thing at least has both sides of the argument. I personally feel that the aqua thing is a little negative (just because you're able to find someone who didn't like the change doesn't mean that's the most predominant view on the matter), but whatever. I'm not getting involved in this again. Althepal (talk) 22:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- Criticism sections are discouraged. There used to be one, but we were required to incorporate it in the text. See WP:Criticism_sections and other links I might find when I have a little bit more time. Dravick (talk) 13:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
"Common" criticism section
The added text is this:
- In comparison to Microsoft Windows, some critics point to the lack of upgrade pricing on Mac OS X; users of previous versions have to pay full price for a new version. This is in part a semantic argument, depending on whether a retail Mac OS X package is considered an "upgrade" or not. On one hand, it can only be used on a Mac, all of which were sold with some version of the Mac OS, so it is arguably an upgrade. On the other hand, no price distinction is made between upgrading version 9.0 or version 10.3 to version 10.4, suggesting that consumers are buying a full license in either case, or at least receiving no credit for intervening upgrades. Furthermore, customers who purchase a Macintosh between the time a new version of Mac OS X is announced and the time it starts shipping preinstalled on new machines have typically been given upgrades at a much smaller cost (9.95-19.95 USD).[3]
- The Open Group has criticized Apple for use of the term "Unix" in advertisements for Mac OS X[4] as Apple has not had the OS officially certified, and their use of the term could constitute a violation of trademark. Apple claims that they use the term as a genericized trademark and that the cost of certification would make the OS prohibitively expensive, although The Open Group has stated that there is a 110,000 USD upper limit on the cost of certification for one company. Though Mac OS X is "Unix-based" and features a BSD Unix compatibility layer, it is not compliant with the Single UNIX Specification. The reason for Apple not seeking "official" Unix branding may simply be that compliance is not a near- or medium-term goal for Apple instead of the potentially misleading cost claim.[5]
In my opinion, the second part is obviously false, and the first part is hardly "common" criticism. I wouldn't mind deleting it altogether again, but that might lead to another edit placing it back in yet again. Dravick (talk) 20:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- The first argument is flawed since Mac OS X can ONLY be used to upgrade an existing copy of Mac OS. And nowadays, who's upgrading from version 9? Either way, everyone should be happy since it costs far less than Windows. The fact that Microsoft has various pricing schemes doesn't mean it's bad for Apple not to.
- The second argument is simply untrue. Aside from being based on UNIX all along from its FreeBSD foundation, Mac OS X v10.5 is officially UNIX.
- For both arguments, they are not even targeted at the operating system itself (either pricing or branding) and are hardly significant enough to dedicate a section to in an encyclopedia article. The section should not be re-introduced. Althepal (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I think that there should be a a page that does list some of Mac OS X's shortcoming, and possible criticisms (if any), because that makes the page much more objective to wikipedia users, which I think is a goal of this website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sysrqx (talk • contribs) 02:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- There already _is_ some criticisms of Mac OS X in the article (as of now, only those about "permissions" were retained, but there was some about the Dock, the Finder, and so on that were moved to their respective page). If you want to add some, find a reliable source, and quote it in the article. Also, one source is not enough to be "common". Dravick (talk) 01:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it's worth mentioning that there's a criticism section for just about every Microsoft product. The wiki seems to have a whole lot of unfair heat towards Microsoft. The lack of a shortcomings section for Mac OSX is inconsistent. And Mac OSX most certainly has shortcomings. Belugaperson (Talk|Contribs) 01:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- How is it inconsistent to follow Wikipedia guidelines and lean towards in-text criticism? Althepal (talk) 03:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- it is inconsistent to lay out explicit criticisms of Windows and other systems in their main articles, and then to bury all Mac OS criticisms in secondary articles. also, there are extensive problems with Mac OS, such as: compatibility issues and enforcing proprietary standards, a whole variety of things you can't do (changing certain fonts, colors, window decors, visually distinguishing between tasks and dock icons etc..), lacking interactivity and gaming APIs, imposing objective-C and its widely criticized models on developers, being tied to proprietary hardware, apple's NDAs and restrictive licenses in all corners of the OSX ecosystem, apple's refusal to provide 64 bit carbon, widespread backlash against "look and feel" restrictiveness, lack of drivers for certain hardware, criticism about closing the darwin kernel "to prevent piracy," stability and security issues (yes, they exist and have been well documented), criticism related to repeatedly breaking old software where windows can still run many exe files and even drivers from 1995, some discussion of the many good and well documented reasons why osx server really isn't useful as a commercial server, etc.. 70.55.42.238 (talk) 21:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- The way it's been done on these articles is completely consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style. Nja247 06:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- For an operating system that is "lacking interactivity and gaming APIs" it sure has a lot of games available for it. Here's an idea, instead of whining on the talk page, how about actually trying to contribute some good edits to the article. If all these alleged problems are "well documented" how about you add them to the article, with reliable sources. Please note I said "good edits", anything that is badly sourced, or badly written will be removed promptly. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
OS X is not UNIX based
Unending discussion on 'OS X is not UNIX based'
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at the time of this writing, the introduction to the article falsely describes osx as "unix based." it is not, it's based on mach/darwin and nextstep. osx has a bsd emulation layer, which represents a partial and deviated unix system, as a module running on top of darwin. osx even uses a mach-specific binary format inside its bsd emulation, and a lot of apple's software interfaces with the mach kernel through mach-specific designs. also, apple's application code isn't unix based, it's based on objective C and object-oriented nextstep apis, not ansi C and posix/sysv/bsd/unix. osx is bundled with a variety of gnu programs that are loosely based on unix designs, and those actually are ansi C/posix based, but osx isn't "based on" those components. you could probably remove every gpl'd console program and all of the gpl'd/lgpl'd libraries except for basic compiler/C libs, and finder and the rest of apple's objective C based software would still work. the kernel isn't based on anything related to unix, their nextstep/cocoa apis can't even be accessed from ANSI C, and the vast majority of apple's own code is written in objective C which is incompatible with ansi C and unix designs. so no, osx is not unix based. a linux distribution with mono, ndis driver support, and wine would probably be more accurately called windows based than osx could be called unix based. also, windows with microsoft's unix services package is comparably "unix based" in the sense of making some unix-like components and apis available on top of a non-unix OS. I do understand the need to keep it simple, but the current claim is just not accurate, so if no details can be provided then it should simply be described as something like mach/darwin/nextstep based, because it is. also, darwin never was free software, it's always been under a proprietary license, it's always been owned and controlled by apple, and apple decided a long time ago that intel users would not be able to recompile their own kernels and boot osx on them. http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14663&Page=1&pagePos=8 I won't restore any mention of the license and open/closed issue, but given that the unix claim is provably inaccurate, I think it's only reasonable to change it to something like "mach/nextstep based," to keep it simple, but correct. 70.55.42.238 (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Can I just point out one last thing. Mac OS X doesn't actually run the Mach kernel. The kernel in Mac OS X is XNU, which is a combination of Mach, BSD code and some other stuff. Pull out the BSD code and you don't even have a kernel anymore. Also comparing the Unix parts of Mac OS X to Cygwin running on Windows is ridiculous. Take the Cygwin files out of a Windows system and you still have a working system, take the Unix files out of Mac OS X and you have a completely dead system. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
here's a diagram that illustrates how osx is layered: http://jl.mu/c/osxlayers.jpg 70.49.147.185 (talk) 17:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh man... are we done yet? I know wikipedia is not a democracy, but it is indeed a "factocracy". The side claiming OS X to be unix-based have plenty of sources, including Mac OS X Leopard on intel being _certified_ UNIX 03. On the other hand, there virtually is no source supporting the other side. I think the discussion should be over. This section is 45 KB long for goodness' sake. Dravick (talk) 03:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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no objections to what I'm saying have been raised in several days, and the point hasn't been directly addressed that certified unix support in osx has been referenced and proven, but osx hasn't been demonstrated as being unix based. the article currently states that osx is "a Unix-based operating system" and that it "is certified UNIX 03." I say the former is simply inaccurate, and the latter states unix certification in a way that also suggests basis. to summarize:
the current reference for the "unix-based" claim doesn't support being based on unix in any way, it only supports the fact that osx provides a working, certified unix environment. so if nothing else, it currently isn't referenced. the arguments in favor of the "unix-based" claim seem to be that mach was originally tested as a guest on bsd, that osx runs a kernel-level bsd module on mach, that the core services make internal use of the bsd module, that osx makes a certified unix environment available, and that one or more of these factors make osx "unix-based." I don't dispute any of those facts, but I say that it doesn't make osx unix based because of the fact that the bsd layer represents a small portion of the set of systems that apple uses and recommends using to develop drivers and applications for osx,[4][5] that not only is the bsd module's role in those systems almost entirely internal but that it also represents only a portion of kernel-based services,[6] and that the mach kernel, rather than bsd module is the core kernel component of the system.[7] also, the fact that the mach kernel began as a guest on bsd is moot, unless the argument is that mach and any mach-based systems are forever "unix based" for historical reasons, whether they actually contain anything related to unix or not. also, the mach kernel doesn't contain or use unix designs, and apple's kernel code is based on non-unix style guidelines and C++ where unix is based on C. [8][9]
so given the above facts of what use and integration with bsd/unix osx has and doesn't have, it would seem to be a question of what based means in this context, and it seems to be a vague generalization. if based means the core kernel then osx is mach based. if based means the driver and application technologies that are used and recommended for use by apple, then osx is based almost entirely on non-unix designs. if based means what internally drives the top-level services then it's a combination of mach, bsd, and then a variety of next- and osx-specific core services that completely wrap over mach and bsd. and if based is simply the historical hosting platform of the kernel project, I would argue that is not relevant or informative in this context, whether the host was unix-based or not.
so in order to reflect that osx provides a certified unix environment, but that it is based on a variety of systems of which bsd is only a part, I propose changing:
Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is a Unix-based operating system,[6] built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple's purchase of the company in early 1996. Its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 is certified UNIX 03 while running on Intel processors.
to:
Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is built on Darwin, Java, and a variety of technologies developed by Apple.[7] Its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 provides a certified UNIX 03 environment while running on Intel processors.
I've removed the mentions of being based on unix and built on next because darwin explicitly covers both, and I didn't mention mach for the same reason. I think this is clearer, more accurate, more concise, and it's neutral on citing one technology or the other as the mutually exclusive basis of osx. I also clarified the "is certified unix" claim to be more neutral and accurate, but osx's certified unix support is still mentioned.
if there are any specific objections to these changes, please state them, or if none are stated then I plan to either sign up for an account or seek the assistance of an administrator in order to implement them.
70.50.178.185 (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Here are my final objections. Whether "based on" means "inspired by," "derived from," or "uses as a foundation," all three are true of the current Mac OS X. The description of the OS as being Unix or "Unix-based" is well-documented, by Apple and third parties. MFNickster (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- "Max OS X version 10.4 Tiger combines a robust and open Unix-based foundation with the richness and usability of the Mac interface"[10]
- "Mac OS X is now a fully certified UNIX operating system"[11]
- "Mac OS X is UNIX-based, open source and based on open standards"[12]
- "Many developers who are new to Mac OS X are also new to BSD, an essential part of the operating system’s kernel environment. BSD (for Berkeley Software Distribution) is based on UNIX."[13]
- "Darwin is not Mac OS X. It can be thought of as a subset of Mac OS X - essentially the low-level foundation upon which Mac OS X is built."[14]
- "...the Cupertino, Calif., Mac maker has been working steadily on maintaining current, PC-compatible builds of its Unix-based OS."[15]
- "The Mac OS X is based on Unix" [16]
- "Apple has always touted OS X as UNIX-based"
- "Mac OS X 10.5 on the Intel platform is a "true" UNIX OS, rather than just being UNIX-like."[17]
- "Unix-Based Mac OS"[18]
- "It is the first desktop, Unix-based operating system to reach the mass market."[19]
- "Users are introduced to the UNIX-based foundations of Mac OS X"[20]
- "Unix-based Mac OS X is very much more powerful and complex than the old Mac OS"[21]
- "Mac OS X is the operating system for Apple's Macinosh computers and it is based on the Unix-based OPENSTEP operating system developed by NeXT Software"[22]
- "The most widely-sold UNIX-based operating system, Mac OS X"[23]
- the driver system and gui software are not actually based on unix, but the inaccurate assertion that providing unix is indistinguishable from unix basing does seem to be extremely common, including in some of apple's more generalized documents, which does provide the appearance of compelling support for what you're saying. I stand by the assertion that, in its vast majority, osx isn't actually based on the unix environment that it provides. I contend that I've proven that above and that the meat of apple's own documents confirms it, but when apple themselves have a number of other documents that misrepresent the system, and a vast number of users seem to feel it's important to draw no distinction between providing a unix environment and actually writing your software based on that environment, rather than, say, java or cocoa, I'll probably face a continuing series of reverts and bans if I try to make the article accurate or even just neutral on the subject.
- so, the lie stands: osx isn't based on mach, nextstep, objective-C core services, cocoa, quartz, quicktime, and java, as apple's more detailed documents explicitly say. it's "unix based," and as far as the introduction to this article goes, the indication will be that apple's drivers and gui software are based on the definitions of the unix specification and could compile and work on other unix-conformant platforms. that's what we'll tell users because that's the public image that everyone wants. oh well, you win, I give up. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 18:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your arguments may have validity, but Wikipedia is not the place to make them. Per WP:NOR: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments."
- "...Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources."
- So, again, unless you have some sources to back up your assertions, policy demands that the article should remain as is. MFNickster (talk) 18:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- the assertion that osx's drivers are based on C++ and non-unix designs, and that its applications are based on cocoa and other non-unix systems is referenced. [24][25][26]
- but it does conflict with a common lack of distinction between osx providing a unix environment and osx being unix based, which, as you pointed out, is even supported by some of apple's other documents.
- I'm saying that the common perception isn't accurate, but it is so common, so motivated, so widely supported, even by some sources within apple, that I can accept that accuracy isn't going to win out, here. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your sources support the fact that Darwin uses I/O Kit in place of traditional Unix driver models. Do you have any sources indicating that any Unix standard requires a particular driver model? AFAIK, only the interfaces are specified, and Darwin meets the requirements. MFNickster (talk) 19:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- the burden of proof is on supporters of the "unix-based" claim to demonstrate that meeting the unix specification requires that the system be based on unix. though, I have demonstrated that it does not, and that there is no conflict between exposing a unix environment, and basing a system's drivers and applications on other models. osx and windows are two examples of platforms that can host unix, but that aren't based on unix. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 20:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- You have it backwards. The sources have always described Mac OS X and Darwin as "Unix-based." One objection people raised to this is that it did not meet the Unix spec, and was not a certified Unix. That objection has been removed, so the burden of proof is on you to provide support for your claim. MFNickster (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with MFNickster, every source ever presented in this argument supported that Mac OS X is UNIX-based. I think the major discussion here is more, what does it mean to be UNIX-based. And to that question, everyone answers the same thing except you. Dravick (talk) 21:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- does meeting the unix spec imply that a system is unix based? is windows unix based if you install cygwin? what if cygwin was certified? the fact that osx's unix support is certified is moot to the "unix-based" claim, unless you can prove that unix certification requires unix basing, which hasn't been referenced.
- the only legitimate evidence for the claim seems to be that a variety of sources have mistakenly confused unix support with unix basing, including at least one source at apple. apple does have many documents that explicitly state that osx drivers and applications are actually based on non-unix languages and interfaces,[27][28][29] and that the system is primarily not internally based on unix,[30][31] but the confusion between hosting unix and being unix seems to be common enough that there are some fairly credible references to contradict apple's explicit documentation of how osx works. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 22:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- For the last time, Darwin is Unix. It is based on Mach, BSD and I/O Kit. Mac OS X is based on Darwin, in that all the application environments rely on Unix processes, Unix networking, and Unix filesystem interfaces provided by the kernel. The docs support this; case closed. MFNickster (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- if it didn't expose the bsd system at all, would you still say it was unix based?
- Yep. But it does. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- but in that case, exposing a unix environment isn't your criterion, so the fact that osx exposes one is moot. that also explains why you feel that cygwin-based configurations don't shed light on this subject. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yep. But it does. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- if the user software was all windows software running on wine, would you call osx unix based?
- Yep. Linux running Wine is still Linux, after all. Why should Darwin be any different? MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- so it seems to be a matter of the lowest layer of the system rather than the design of application software, the directly supporting frameworks, or any intermediary or secondary layers. also, I notice you didn't say that it depends on whether wine is completely consistent with windows specs, so the issue of conformance seems to be moot. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yep. Linux running Wine is still Linux, after all. Why should Darwin be any different? MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- also, what about the fact that the bsd layer represents only a portion of the internal backing for the core services?
- Irrelevant. Every Unix has software that runs on libraries which are not part of the core OS. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- that seems like a reasonable argument, so long as you apply it consistently. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. Every Unix has software that runs on libraries which are not part of the core OS. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- what makes the bsd layer the mutually exclusive base?
- The fact that it is a complete, certified Unix OS even without the services and applications on top. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- I thought you said that exposing a unix system isn't the criterion. also, are you saying that windows with cygwin is unix based? also, by that standard, wouldn't wine on osx somehow become the basis of the system if wine were completely windows-conformant? 70.50.178.185 (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- The fact that it is a complete, certified Unix OS even without the services and applications on top. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- did you know that the bsd layer has no drivers of its own, and the bsd layer itself is adapted to be based entirely on services provided by mach and apple's drivers? 70.50.178.185 (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. The fact that they changed the driver structure doesn't affect the core Unix interfaces the system depends on.
- but in this scenario, bsd is a compatibility layer, a guest, a runtime, based on a supporting lower level set of drivers and apis that have nothing to do with unix. whether it's unix-conformant or not, why is it more the basis of the system than the next layer down, or the next layer up? by your own reasoning, isn't the one true basis of osx mach/iokit, not bsd? 70.50.178.185 (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Again, it doesn't matter what arguments you or I make - the article has to be referenced from notable sources on the topic. MFNickster (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. The fact that they changed the driver structure doesn't affect the core Unix interfaces the system depends on.
- if it didn't expose the bsd system at all, would you still say it was unix based?
- For the last time, Darwin is Unix. It is based on Mach, BSD and I/O Kit. Mac OS X is based on Darwin, in that all the application environments rely on Unix processes, Unix networking, and Unix filesystem interfaces provided by the kernel. The docs support this; case closed. MFNickster (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- 70.50.178.185, nobody's going to buy a "OMG THE WHOLE WORLD IS WRONG EXCEPT FOR ME!" argument from someone who prefers to remain completely anonymous. So, please, man up with some proof and reliable sources, or take your grump and bugger the hell off. Warren -talk- 21:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- the burden of proof is on supporters of the "unix-based" claim to demonstrate that meeting the unix specification requires that the system be based on unix. though, I have demonstrated that it does not, and that there is no conflict between exposing a unix environment, and basing a system's drivers and applications on other models. osx and windows are two examples of platforms that can host unix, but that aren't based on unix. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 20:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your sources support the fact that Darwin uses I/O Kit in place of traditional Unix driver models. Do you have any sources indicating that any Unix standard requires a particular driver model? AFAIK, only the interfaces are specified, and Darwin meets the requirements. MFNickster (talk) 19:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Warren, I know it feels like arguing in circles, but please remember to be civil. MFNickster (talk) 22:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Don't you lecture me. The reality is that people who come to Wikipedia and try and prove what they're saying by providing links to sources which state precisely the opposite of what they're arguing, as this anonymous person has just done, are wasting our collective time and are thus being disruptive and damaging the encyclopedia. They need to take their malfunctioning brains and bugger the hell off. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not to have an argument. Warren -talk- 22:34, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- No matter how much you disagree with him, telling him to "bugger the hell off" is not civil behavior. MFNickster (talk) 22:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- Which part of "don't you lecture me" are you struggling with? Warren -talk- 22:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- A) You don't get to tell me what to do, B) all editors are expected to adhere to Wikipedia's standards, and C) are you trying to get blocked? MFNickster (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
To paraphrase a great Scottish engineer, "Aye... and if my grandmother had wheels a BSD subsystem, she'd be a wagon Unix-based operating system." While this discussion has been fascinating, please stop feeding the troll. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 03:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Gladly. The thing is, I'm not convinced that if we ignore him, he'll go away. MFNickster (talk) 04:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- They all go away eventually, MFNickster. Surely you've been observing Wikipedia long enough to know that. Warren -talk- 12:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- my windows system has cygwin, I guess it's a unix-based operating system, and my linux system has wine and mono, so I guess it's a windows-based operating system. I think the fundamental issue is in trying to state that a complex, multi-layered, multi-standard operating system is "based on" one and only one of those layers, in a mutually exclusive sense. it's basically a lie by omission, and it's certainly a simplistic, inaccurate way to represent any modern system, particularly if the supposed base layer is neither the core kernel and hardware-controlling driver system, nor the interface that most of the application software is written for.
- an accurate description would be that osx is based on many systems, bsd as a guest of mach/iokit being one of them. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 22:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Boy, those wiley Apple engineers sure snowed those Open Group guys! MFNickster (talk) 22:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- apple doesn't say that osx is based on unix and nothing else. that "based on unix and only unix" insistence seems to be a wikipedia-specific thing. here are some quotes from apple:
- "The fundamental services and primitives of the Mac OS X kernel are based on Mach 3.0." [32]
- "Mac OS X is based on Mach and BSD." [33]
- "Based on Mach 2.5 and BSD 4.4, this operating system is incredibly stable and scalable." [34]
- "Kernel based on Mach 3.0 UNIX-like foundation" [35] (??)
- "Mac OS X is based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel, designed by Carnegie Mellon University, and later adapted to the Power Macintosh by Apple and the Open Software Foundation Research Institute (now part of Silicomp)." [36] 70.50.178.185 (talk) 23:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of further wearying the other editors, maybe it's time for a car analogy...
- Say you are building an ambulance that you're going to sell, and you start with a Ford E-250 van. You spec out the gear you need to haul in back. Some, like the lights and airbags, uses the features of the van (BSD/GNU tools). Other stuff, like the stretchers and EKGs, doesn't rely on the features of the van at all other than transport (Cocoa/Carbon/Java), and yet other stuff, like the decals and siren, is just outward appearance (Aqua).
- Since your van won't haul everything very well as is, you replace the motor (BSD kernel) with a Dodge engine (Mach), but you make it fit the existing Ford drivetrain (XNU). Oh, and now it runs on diesel (I/O Kit) rather than regular gas (traditional Unix drivers).
- Oh, and since some hospitals want to outfit their own ambulances with custom gear, you offer to provide just the base van with modified drivetrain, diesel engine, and mounting points for lights etc. (Darwin).
- Now, your argument is like saying that the ambulance is no longer based on a Ford E-250 van, because that's only one part of the whole package. It would be a lie by omission if you don't mention the Dodge parts and the stretchers and lights and EKGs. MFNickster (talk) 01:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- mach was always intended as its own kernel, it's not a runtime that mutated into a kernel, and osx is based on mach, it always has been. osx was never based on a bsd kernel, only a bsd layer as a guest on mach. so the analogy is false, the ambulance (osx) started as a dodge, nothing changed from the beginning of this project. also, the analogy is inconsistent in that the kernel was represented as an entire base vehicle when it was bsd, but it was only the engine when it came to switching kernels. the role-reversal scenario should have mach becoming everything that bsd represented, and bsd becoming whatever portion mach represented. also, if the only argument in favor of a mutually exclusive "unix based" claim is historical, and the present state of osx wouldn't support that claim, then it should be written in a past tense. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 01:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- No analogy is perfect, but I consider this usage of "based on" to be an exact parallel, meaning "we took $existing_thing and changed some things, added some things on top, but the basic design, operation, and most of the parts of $existing_thing are the same." MFNickster (talk) 02:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- mach is a separate system from bsd, it's not a fork. it's a clean-room project that, like almost all kernels, began as a guest on something rather than starting as raw opcodes stored into rom chips. mach is its own system, you can boot mach without anything related to bsd or unix. osx just happens to use a bsd guest layer to implement some things, but it's not that mach and bsd are one in the same, it's a coincidence. also, this is a historical note about mach, not a fact about the configuration of osx. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- The evidence suggests you're simply wrong about this. There is plenty of info here illustrating that Mach was conceived as a complete OS, not just a kernel - it started as a variant of 4.3BSD Unix in which the kernel was split into a microkernel and a user-space emulation layer that handled the high-level kernel functionality. It was hoped that those functions could be replaced by smaller independent processes (a la GNU Hurd), and even host other OS personalities. But in the beginning, it was a Unix OS. MFNickster (talk) 02:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- that's true that the first mach guest was intended to be a unix system, but I don't see how that makes mach unix based, and I certainly don't see how that historical note makes it accurate to forever refer to any system running on mach as "unix based." also, according to wikipedia's article about mach, it's based on a kernel called the accent kernel that had absolutely nothing to do with unix. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 03:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Did you READ that article? Toward the end, it says: "The new system would use Accent's ports system within a Unix kernel, creating the famed Mach kernel." MFNickster (talk) 03:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- yes, that doesn't conflict with either the assertion that accent had nothing to do with unix, or the assertion that mach's intended and literal role was as a non-unix kernel playing host to a unix guest. microkernels were conceived and touted as hypervisors to be a platform-neutral host to multiple guest operating systems and completely separate services. that is the only point of a microkernel, in fact. using a microkernel to host a single guest is pointless. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 03:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- It specifically says that Mach was intended to be the low-level kernel in a UNIX system. This is like banging my head against a wall-- go do your homework, then come back and discuss it. MFNickster (talk) 03:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- mach's intended and literal role was as a non-unix kernel playing host to a unix guest. the unix guest wasn't even intended to run at kernel level. unix was supposed to begin in a privilege-separated module, a guest process. apple have eliminated mach's original microkernel design and mutated it into something more like a modular monolithic kernel, with its drivers living in kernel space. so the unix guest lives in the kernel address space, and that somewhat confuses people. mach itself remains completely free of unix, though. unix still begins only as a separate guest that doesn't interface directly with the machine, but for performance reasons, the guest isn't isolated in its own address space on apple's version of mach. the facts are that mach does not contain or provide anything related to unix, it's not a fork of unix code, it can boot without a unix guest, it can be used as a host for non-unix guests, it's based on the accent kernel that had nothing to do with unix, it is not unix. it has a connection to unix in that its intended purpose was to host a unix platform, but it isn't based on unix in any way. you could go make up and write your own non-unix system to run on mach, it would host that equally well because nothing about its design is unix-related. you could even host a windows guest on mach. mach is very similar in concept to the xen hypervisor. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 13:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- In theory, yes; in practice, nobody has done anything significant with Mach but build Unix systems on it. As surely as MkLinux was "microkernel Linux," the Mach OS was "microkernel BSD." MFNickster (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- well there aren't a lot of useful alternatives to hosting unix/unix-like systems, but either way, hosting unix doesn't make it unix, or unix based. originally, bsd on mach was like cygwin on windows, except that mach is a tiny platform compared to windows. the configuration in osx is true to the original, except that address space separation has been removed. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your fucking delusional mate. So if BSD/Mach is the equivalent of Cygwin/Windows, then Windows was developed as a replacement kernel for Cygwin? And again Mac OS X doesn't run Mach. If you compile the Mach kernel and try to use it as the Mac OS X kernel, it ain't gonna work. Everything depends on the BSD code in the kernel. EVERYTHING. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- mach works without bsd, bsd doesn't work without mach. you could even run mklinux and osx's bsd layer at the same time on mach. also, again, the cygwin analog is to boot osx on cygwin/windows by running the core services on cygwin instead of bsd, and then running the other non-unix-related 95% of apple's gui software on that. you're not addressing a meaningful scenario when you address a version where you switch from mach/bsd to windows/cygwin and you drop the 90% of osx that runs on top of mach and bsd. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Please read this slowly.
The Mac OS X kernel is XNU. The Mac OS X kernel is not Mach. XNU is Mach and BSD. Mach was developed as a replacement kernel for BSD. BSD is definitely UNIX. Mach is arguably UNIX. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- mach is the kernel. bsd is a layer in a driver on top of it. the bsd layer doesn't interface with the underlying machine in any way, it interfaces exclusively with mach. you can't develop bsd-level drivers on osx. apple confirms all of this. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- You need to do your homework. Apple's sources make it clear that Mach is not the kernel; XNU is the entire kernel environment. It is a combination of Mach, BSD and I/O Kit functionality. It is a hybrid kernel. The BSD layer is not a driver, it is part of the kernel. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? MFNickster (talk) 02:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- apple removed mach address separation for performance reasons, so layers immediately on top of mach now live in the kernel address space. the fact remains that the bsd layer is on top of mach, mach doesn't depend on it, it is in a mach module, mach could host several such modules at once, it interfaces with mach and iokit but not directly with the machine, and it could easily be address separated, though, at a performance cost. apple explicitly says the same:
- "The fundamental services and primitives of the Mac OS X kernel are based on Mach 3.0." "Mach 3.0 was originally conceived as a simple, extensible, communications microkernel. It is capable of running as a stand–alone kernel, with other traditional operating-system services such as I/O, file systems, and networking stacks running as user-mode servers. However, in Mac OS X, Mach is linked with other kernel components into a single kernel address space. This is primarily for performance; it is much faster to make a direct call between linked components than it is to send messages or do remote procedure calls (RPC) between separate tasks." "Mac OS X processes and POSIX threads (pthreads) are implemented on top of Mach tasks and threads, respectively." "Mach is responsible for taking a requested virtual address and assigning it a corresponding location in physical memory. It does so through demand paging." [37]
- "Mac OS X provides many benefits to the Macintosh user and developer communities. These benefits include improved reliability and performance, enhanced networking features, an object-based system programming interface, and increased support for industry standards." (note: unix isn't oo) "Both Darwin and Mac OS X include the BSD command-line application environment; however, in Mac OS X, use of environment is not required, and thus it is hidden from the user unless they choose to access it." "Darwin technology is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies." (note: not just unix) "Because Mac OS X contains three basic components (Mach, BSD, and the I/O Kit), there are also frequently as many as three APIs for certain key operations." (not just unix) "Above the Mach layer, the BSD layer provides “OS personality” APIs and services." "The I/O Kit provides a framework for simplified driver development, supporting many categories of devices.The I/O Kit features an object-oriented I/O architecture implemented in a restricted subset of C++." [38]
- "There are two general types of I/O Kit developers, and this document tries to be useful to both. The first type is the developer creating a device driver that is to be resident in the kernel; the second type is the application developer who is using an I/O Kit device interface to communicate with hardware." "Once you’ve absorbed the information in I/O Kit Fundamentals, you should be able to forge ahead and actually create a device driver." [39]
- "Kernel-resident drivers have full access to kernel programming interfaces. However, because of their low level of operation, drivers should use only Mach calls and not BSD calls." "The I/O Kit encompasses dozens of C++ classes and is itself an extension of the libkern C++ library, the foundation for loadable kernel modules." [40]
- "You might have developed device drivers for other platforms—Mac OS 9, perhaps, or BSD or another flavor of UNIX. One thing you’ll discover reading this document is how different the approach is with the I/O Kit." (note: implies that the kernel is not a flavor of unix, and is very different from flavors of unix) "The I/O Kit’s object-oriented programming model is implemented in a restricted subset of C++." [41]
- "Mac OS X is based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel, designed by Carnegie Mellon University, and later adapted to the Power Macintosh by Apple and the Open Software Foundation Research Institute (now part of Silicomp). This was known as osfmk, and was part of MkLinux (http://www.mklinux.org). Later, this and code from OSF’s commercial development efforts were incorporated into Darwin’s kernel." [42]
- "Mac OS X is based on Mach and BSD." "BSD–based and Mach–based operating systems contain legacy functions designed for basic single-processor synchronization." "If you are porting legacy code from earlier Mach–based or BSD–based operating systems, you must find an alternate means of providing synchronization." (suggests that mach-based and bsd-based are separate, and mutually exclusive) [43] 65.95.194.188 (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Also about the point that IO/Kit drivers are not UNIX drivers. There is NO standard for UNIX drivers. Every UNIX operating systems has different drivers. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- kernels and drivers can be based on the unix programming standard. that is, ansi C, posix, and a number of other apis. linux is a good example. though, if your assertion is true then no kernel can be a unix kernel, and whether or not a system is unix based would presumably be a matter of whether the application-level software is based on unix. a tiny, tiny portion of apple's application code is unix-compliant. only the portion of the core services that interact with the bsd layer, which is even a minority of the core services. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Also about the endless comparisons to Cygwin on Windows. I think I said before. Remove Cygwin from a Windows PC and you still have a working PC. Remove the BSD side of the XNU kernel and you have a machine that doesn't even boot. The comparison is frankly pathetic. A similar comparison would be suggesting that Microsoft might be considering removing Win32 from Windows 7. Equally unlikely. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- microsoft does categorize the windows api as deprecated, and they're moving toward a design where .NET is the central programming interface. in fact, it's probably already the case that saying windows is "based on the win32 api" is somewhat inaccurate, though, nowhere near as much so as saying that osx is "unix based," because osx bases a good portion of its runtime on mach specifics and other non-unix designs, where .NET is still primarily based on win32. also, a fair analogy involving cygwin would be to run apple's runtime and application software on top of it, and then to claim that the operating system as a whole is only "unix based." removing cygwin would break apple's lowest runtime layer and therefore anything that depends on that layer, but it wouldn't break windows, just like removing the bsd layer from osx would break the same tiny but critical portion of apple's application code, but not mach, because mach is a separate system from bsd and is a layer below the bsd layer. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 02:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Microsoft does NOT categorise the Windows API as deprecated. Windows 7 includes improvements to the Windows API. The vast majority of Windows itself is written using the Windows API. The .NET framework is something that sits on top of Windows (like Cygwin sits on top of Windows, unlike BSD which is a core part of Mac OS X). If you removed the .NET framework Windows still runs perfectly fine (like Windows runs perfectly fine if you remove Cygwin, unlike Mac OS X where if you remove BSD the whole damn thing disnae work nay mare). AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- microsoft recommends developing all new software on .NET, and a fair bit of windows 7 uses .NET. the .NET initiative is a massive effort across microsoft to eventually move the entire windows platform over to .NET, even the kernel. the concept is that it would eliminate all memory corruption bugs, which would also eliminate most security issues, and it would eventually even obviate the need for address spaces, low level privilege separation, hardware virtualization, and probably a majority of the circuits and power consumption of an x86 cpu. portions of .NET are already based on interfaces that aren't a part of the win32 api, but you're right that most of .NET is still based on win32, and a minority of windows 7 is based on .NET. if microsoft did eventually reach a point where a little over 50% of .NET was based on non-win32 interfaces, then .NET would be roughly as win32-based as apple's core services are based on bsd. also, in that case, if windows continued to expose win32, but almost all of its application software was based on .NET, then windows would be roughly as win32-based as osx is unix based. 70.50.178.185 (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Microsoft does NOT categorise the Windows API as deprecated. Windows 7 includes improvements to the Windows API. The vast majority of Windows itself is written using the Windows API. The .NET framework is something that sits on top of Windows (like Cygwin sits on top of Windows, unlike BSD which is a core part of Mac OS X). If you removed the .NET framework Windows still runs perfectly fine (like Windows runs perfectly fine if you remove Cygwin, unlike Mac OS X where if you remove BSD the whole damn thing disnae work nay mare). AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Everyone should realize now that this ridiculous discussion is 88 kilobytes long, that's 13,000 words. This is even worse than the "X not ten" one earlier. Dravick (talk) 12:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Time for a vacation. :-P MFNickster (talk) 13:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- Time to stop feeding the troll. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm done. The article isn't going to be changed to reflect this entirely unsupported opinion. Our anonymous friend is either taking the piss or incredibly badly informed. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 02:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've also got to stop letting him bait me. I'm officially on vacation now. MFNickster (talk) 02:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
so to condense, apple says:
- "The fundamental services and primitives of the Mac OS X kernel are based on Mach 3.0." [44]
- "Mac OS X processes and POSIX threads (pthreads) are implemented on top of Mach tasks and threads, respectively." [45]
- "Mac OS X is based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel" [46]
- "Mac OS X is based on Mach and BSD." [47]
- "Both Darwin and Mac OS X include the BSD command-line application environment; however, in Mac OS X, use of environment is not required, and thus it is hidden from the user unless they choose to access it." [48]
- "Above the Mach layer, the BSD layer provides “OS personality” APIs and services." [49]
the insistence that wikipedia's introduction must present osx as exclusively "unix based" is therefore in direct conflict with referenced statements from apple. the point was made that OR isn't relevant, even if it is logical and provable, and that would also apply to the claim that apple is mistaken, and that the historical and/or technical research by a wikipedia author has led to the conclusion that osx is exclusively unix based. also, the "only unix based" argument supposes a subjective definition of based that is also based on OR rather than a statement from a reliable source. so in short, rather than continuing to argue the observable facts of how osx is configured, I would argue that this article should simply defer to apple and present the complete set of components that apple says osx is based on, rather than cherry picking based on OR and introducing osx as exclusively unix based. if there are no objections to this, I intend to move forward with either signing up for an account (and grieving having to do so) to modify the introduction, or to simply contact an administrator for assistance. 70.50.133.21 (talk) 15:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Please, just go away. Dravick (talk) 17:41, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
the article currently states:
- Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is a Unix-based operating system,[6] built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple's purchase of the company in early 1996. Its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 is certified UNIX 03 while running on Intel processors.
"Unix" is unnecessarily vague in the first sentence, given that it's referring specifically to bsd, not the general UNIX certification. I propose that saying it is based on bsd would be more informative, and that is how apple often describes it.[50][51] also, in addition to bsd, apple say in numerous documents that osx is also based on mach and their own technologies.[52][53][54][55] I would also assert, on a note relating only to quality, that "built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple's purchase of the company in early 1996" is unnecessarily detailed and verbose for this section, and that it belongs in the history section. so, based on the above, I propose changing the first sentence to:
- Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies.[8][9][10][11]
please note that "is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies" is a verbatim quote, the whole sentence being "Darwin technology is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies."[56] if there is any dispute relating to darwin vs osx, please note "Mac OS X is based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel."[57] "Mac OS X is based on Mach and BSD."[58] I chose "is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies" because it is a direct quote from apple listing the 3 major categories of technology that osx is based on, and my hope is that quoting apple directly can prevent any controversy about the ordering or phrasing of the components. (I would personally place Mach first if I were going to quote myself in lieu of quoting apple)
also, regarding the second sentence which states that osx has passed unix certification, I'd like to make it clear that I don't deny that fact, and I don't aim to remove it. that being said, I do have two objections to the sentence. the first is that it says "is certified UNIX," and I propose changing that to move away from language suggesting that osx "is UNIX" which wouldn't seem to be the intended purpose of the statement or something supported by the reference or apple's own comments. though, again, the point that osx provides an environment that meets unix certification is not in dispute, and is not something I'm trying to delete. there is also the fact that apple says "Both Darwin and Mac OS X include the BSD command-line application environment; however, in Mac OS X, use of environment is not required, and thus it is hidden from the user unless they choose to access it."[59] I think this is directly relevant if osx's unix environment is going to be mentioned. the key points being that use of the environment is not required, and that it is hidden by default. apple's quote would seem to be too long to be used verbatim, so here's what I propose:
- In its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 the BSD layer passes UNIX 03 certification while running on Intel processors,[6] though, use of the environment is not required, and it is hidden by default.[60]
thus, my proposal is to change:
- Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is a Unix-based operating system,[6] built on technologies developed at NeXT between the second half of the 1980s and Apple's purchase of the company in early 1996. Its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5 is certified UNIX 03 while running on Intel processors.
to
- Mac OS X, whose "X" represents the Roman numeral for "10" and is a prominent part of its brand identity, is based on BSD, Mach 3.0, and Apple technologies.[12][13][14][15] In its sixth and most recent version, Mac OS X v10.5, the BSD layer passes UNIX 03 certification while running on Intel processors,[6] though, use of the environment is not required, and it is hidden by default.[16]
70.50.133.205 (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Good article...
As you may know, the article recently failed a GA nomination by me. A problem was, I didn't plan really well, and after the nomination I did not have that much time to dedicate to wikipedia. Mainly, the suggestions of the reviewer were really helpful, but concerning the part where he wanted to add a lot of comparisons with windows, I disagreed. I don't think that the article needs any mention of windows.
Now, if we look at the reasons the article was delisted in the first place here, I'm pretty sure all of those problems are resolved. The article didn't meet the expectations of the new reviewer, but it is still my opinion that the article is good enough to be GA.
So I don't really know what to do now. I'm pretty sure we could have been "luckier" and gotten a reviewer that liked it as it is, but I don't feel like renominating it so soon is the way to go. I would like to know what you guys think. Dravick (talk) 03:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that the suggestion about Windows isn't very productive and should not have meant the article to fail on that alone. The other issues seem covered and we should re-nominate for review. I'll work with you to try to get it passed, as will most of the regulars I'm sure. Nja247 20:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- ^ a b c d "What is an operating system (OS)?". Apple Inc. July 15, 2004. Retrieved December 20 2006.
The current version of Mac OS is Mac OS X (pronounced "Mac O-S ten")
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ignored (help) Cite error: The named reference "ten_not_x" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page). - ^ Brown, Rich. "Apple OS X: You say OS Ten, I say OS Eks". c. Retrieved 2009-03-09.
{{cite web}}
: Text "net" ignored (help) - ^ http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Mac_OS_X_-_Criticisms/id/1736532
- ^ http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html
- ^ http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Mac_OS_X_-_Versions/id/1736534
- ^ a b c d e "Mac OS X for UNIX Users" (PDF). Apple Inc. January 6. Retrieved December 15 2008.
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ignored (help) Cite error: The named reference "osx_unix" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page). - ^ Mac OS X System Overview
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