Talk:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

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Nigger controversy

"Baby" version?

Coming from the UK, I have never heard "tiger". Nor have I ever heard "baby". I have only heard "nigger" and "tinker" - a variation that nobody else has mentioned. Why haven't I heard "baby"? Is it something that was introduced in the last 10-20 years?--Oxonian2006 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am also from the UK, yet have only heard "tiger", and not "baby" at all.

im from the UK aswell ihavent heard tiger or tiger more a combination of the two where you catch a tigger by its toe and let i t go when it squels

eenie meenie minie moe catch a tigger by the toe if it squeels let it go eenie meanie minie moe

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row 2, cell 1	row 2, cell 2	row 2, cell 3</ref

In my opinion, this version is clearly racist and reffers to slavery. In one of the versions showed it says: "if he won't work them let him go..." This extract shows that the rhyme really talks about slaves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.50.14 (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pulp Fiction

This isn't an article about that movie, so I trimmed back a lengthy discussion of the scene. The only reason it's here is the use of the rhyme, so character names, etc., aren't needed - DavidWBrooks 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lawsuit citation

~~Can someone add a citation for the lawsuit? to a newspaper article or something? meanwhile, I'll lexis nexis it.~~Found it and added link--Muchosucko 08:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"History"

It is also doubtful that the "nigger" version would have mutated into the "tiger" version in an era when political correctness was not an issue, or that it would have caught on so widely with few variations of similar popularity.

Many people who grew up before the late 1960's are likely to report having heard or grown up with the "nigger" version of the rhyme. Since the late 1960's, and especially Civil Rights Act of 1964 the "nigger" variation has become much more rare but is still used in some circles to this day.

Just how are these two statements consistent with each other? First the author says that it's unlikely to have changed in the comparatively brief time since PCness became fashionable, then s/he claims that it did. These two sentences and the paras that contain them were both contributed by the anon (no other contributions) who started the Eenie Meenie article (since merged). Shouldn't we verify or remove them?

Also, several people (on this talk page, on the Eenie Meenie talk page, myself, my colleagues) agree that the "nigger" version is still the usual one in the UK and Ireland, at least. It seems we could safely say so in the article. —Blotwell 11:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and yes. - DavidWBrooks 22:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's the 'usual' version in the UK and Ireland. I learnt it as 'catch a knicker', everyone else at school learnt 'catch a tigger' or tiger. I was made aware of the 'bad' version by my mother, because it was the usual version when she learnt it. I do not believe the 'bad' version is in general use. I've also heard of older versions being 'catch a hare', listed in my Penguin Book of Nursery Rhymes somewhere. (And we used 'squeals' not 'hollers', because 'holler' isn't used in the UK.) Skittle 10:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"nigger" is certainly not the usual one in the UK. Indeed, in many parts of the UK that would be a swift way for any child to be excluded from school. "It is also doubtful that the "nigger" version would have mutated into the "tiger" version in an era when political correctness was not an issue, or that it would have caught on so widely with few variations of similar popularity." suggests to me that "tiger / tigger" may have mutated in to "nigger" but not vice versa. --Longwayround 17:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the "NIGGER" one is probably the original version and not simply a "controversial version". This article is proof positive that you can't trust wikipedia as a real source of fact. For one, tigers don't have "toes" and if you were to catch a tiger by any appendage, you'd be the one hollering to be let go. The "tiger" version most certainly was the edited version. The word "nigger" was considered offensive well before our current PC days. 76.229.189.16 (talk) 00:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Updated British version

I'm considering changing the British version to

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe Catch a fishy with your' toe If it's nice lick it twice, Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.

As it is the standard version in my area, however I am unsure of it's popularity in other areas.Cardboard boxA 18:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like that could be a regional variation. May be worth adding it to the article, but I don't think it could be described as the definitive British version. I grew up with the "tiger" version myself. --62.30.181.30 13:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard the "tiger" version, despite having lived in Lincolnshire, Essex and Lancashire. "Tigger" is the version I know best. --Longwayround 17:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

published history

Right now, following the additions by an apparently well-informed anonymous IP concerning "nigger" versions printed in the early 1920s, we say both that "The earliest known published versions in the English language date to 1855," and that there are a lack of "tiger" versions in print before 1950. This implies that the 1855 version uses "nigger", or at least doesn't use "tiger". Does anybody know if this is the case? If we don't know for sure, we need to change something. - DavidWBrooks 20:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is it clearer now? Basically, earlier versions (and it will have been around for a long time before it was ever recorded, this being the nature of folk rhymes, especially before the 20th century) used a variety of different people and animals. Skittle 22:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I grew up near Edinburgh, Scotland in the 1970-1980's and though I had heard the fishy version the most popular version was: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, Sits a baby on a po, When it's done, Wipe its bum, Eeny Meeny Miny Mo.

Phoenix Wright reference

Ini Miney and Mimi Miney are in a separate case from the clown named Moe. Furthermore, since the clown's full name is given as Larry Curls, it seems clear to me that Larry "Moe" Curls is a Three Stooges reference, not a "eeny meeny miny moe" reference. -- Sertrel (talk | contribs) 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe -- occurrence in pop culture

Fats Domino's 1956 million-seller "Yes it's Me and I'm in Love Again" includes the following stanza:

Eenie meenie and miney mo Tol' me y' don't want me around no mo' Ooooeey, baby, oooooo-eee Baby don't you let yo dog bite me.

Too many pop-culture references

I have come to the conclusion that eeny-meenie-etc. is too popular for us to list all the times it shows up in films/books/TV/etc. - the section is growing *way* out of bounds. I'd like to throw out virtually all of them, keeping only extremely unusual cases (e.g., the character names in Rushdie's novel). Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks 20:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Four months later I did it - removing all instances in which are character says "eenie meenie ..." to make choices. I left in all the songs, since I couldn't decide if that counted or not. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other versions and other trivia

I do not know if any of this will be useful, but I am going to share it in the discussion area so that the editor may decide if this story or any part of it may be useful in the main article. The use of the word "nigger" is slang for "Negro" and was the common usage at that time.

---

When I was a child in Milwaukee during the fifties, the rhyme we used had two versions. It went like this to eliminate:

[The asterisk (*) represents the beat when the finger is pointed at the next in line.]

  *Eney *meany *miney *moe (four count)
  *Catch a *nigger *by the *toe (four count)
  *If he *hollers *let him *go (four count)
  *Out *goes *Y *O *U (five count)

The alternative last line was used to choose:

  *I *choose *Y *O *U (five count)

I know the last line does not rhyme properly, but we were kids and did not care. If you check out the mathematics, you will find that the count was a prime number and a prime number is ideal for a choosing rhyme.

Some time during the sixties, I remember changes to the rhyme. The word "tiger" replaced the word "nigger". It would not have made much difference if that were the only change, but more changes made the rhyme more unwieldy. The insertion of the line "my mother says to pick the very best one" before the last line made the total count an even number. Even as children, we realized that did not work as well. However, since we had respect for our mothers, the last line was usually eliminated to make the count an odd number again. Other less successful attempts were made, but since none of them had a prime number count, they never worked as well as the original version, with or without the word substitution.

{Off topic, but perhaps germane; the use of the word "nigger" as a child did not make me a bigot. It was when a Negro discriminated against me that I became aware of racial prejudice.}

During this time of changes, our group decided on "*my *mother *says *to *chose *the *very *best *one, *so *I *choose *you" because it worked better than any of the other choosing rhyme variations with the word "mother" in it. This, unbeknownst to us, was because it has a prime number count. The only thing that made this method of choice random was the direction the chooser went, the choice of the individual to start, the changing number from which the choice was to be made, and the order in which the individuals lined up.

{Further off topic: During the seventies, I learned to use a random number generator to make choices, but by then I was no longer a child. I still have a couple of sets of random number generators consisting of seven dice (four, six, eight, ten (units), ten (decades), twelve, and twenty sided) that use actual numbers instead of dots.}

1880 citation

Bolton in his 1888 work on children's counting rhymes collected about eighteen variants of "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo" (see pages 105-106). Of these, eight are included in Section 1—"Catch a nigger by the toe." Most of these were from the United States, but at least two were from the British Isles. Of these eight, five caught "a nigger by the toe" (No.s 600, 601, 602, 604, & 606); one "a negro by the toe" (No. 603); one "a baby by the toe" (No. 605); and one "a nigger by the thumb" (No. 607). Altogether Bolton collected more than 50 variants of "Enie, Meenie". Bolton states earlier in his book that the "nigger" variant likely originated in the U.S. The use of "tiger by the toe" seems to be an adult adaption of the children's rhyme dating from the mid-20th century as it appears nowhere in Bolton's collection. Hope this helps.

Bolton, Henry Carrington, The Counting-out Rhymes of Children: Their Antiquity, Origin, and Wide Distribution. New York: D. Appleton & Co. (1888). BackSignTiger (talk) 04:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the "catch a baby by the toe" was collected in Newport, Rhode Island, not in England. BackSignTiger (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The book mentioned above is public domain, and available on Google Book Search. Link to page 105, which contains the offensive version as well: [1] -- Otto 19:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The book also points out that the rhyme was the most popular version among American schoolchildren at the time (page 46) and that "every state in the union" reported this (page 105). -- Otto 19:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yonkers, NY, early '60s

(Please forgive the spelling)

Eeny Meeny Picka Teeny Goo Gah Gahgah Leeny Otcha Potcha Googa Lotcha Out Goes Y O U

(variation: Otchy Potchy Googa Lotchy)

Is this familiar to ANYONE?

24.188.14.175 (talk) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading statments re English traditional rhyme, etc.

The following statements are not supported by actual facts: "As pointed out in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the word "nigger" was common in American folk-lore, but unknown in any English traditional rhyme or proverb. This, combined with evidence of various versions of the rhyme in England that predate the "nigger" version, suggest that the "nigger" version merely became the most popular at some point in the 20th century, probably originating in America."

For instance, the well known American song "Ten Little Indians" was published in the US before 1868—Frank Green published the British version "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. Also, the only reference found to anything "caught by the toe" in Britian other than "nigger by the toe" was found by Gomme (p. 420) in a schoolgirl's dancing song from Scotland c. 1898 (similar to "hokey-cokey"):

Eendy, beendy, baniba, roe,

Caught a chicken by the toe;

To the east, to the west,

To the old crow's nest,

Hopping in the garden, swimming in the sea,

If you want a pretty girle, please take me.

Gomme, Alice Bertha. The Traditional Games of England, Scotland, and Ireland. London: David Nutt (1898) BackSignTiger (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Table format

An editor was beginning to put the various national versions into table format. I have reverted the effort because I found it visually very confusing - tables are great for organizing information in which individual pieces of data are relatively small, but not for long stanzas of poetry. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a 'random' choice generator

Hmm, the article seems to be missing something important: the properties of the rhyme as a random choice generator. Would I be right in assuming that in the normal versions, it's four choices per line? So the british version would pick 16 mod Number of choices?--Fangz (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence "... used to select a person to be "it" for games and similar purposes." seems to me to cover that pretty well. And it's not really random - in fact, it's totally predictable who will be chosen once you begin; it's just too complicated to be worth the bother of calculating in advance who that choice will be. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To an observer who doesn't understand the "code" it's impossible to distinguish appeared randomness and true randomness. These are children after all, and for them it is as good as any pseudorandom generating computer. (Anyone remembering becoming a little older, and the discussion and feelings when you started figuring out that it wasn't random after all?) I second a carefully worded paragraph of the random generator phenomena. Vbakke (talk) 21:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

French version

I'm not familiar with the French version shown here. The one I've heard is this:

Ams tram gram
Pic et pic et colégram
Bour et bour et ratatam
Ams tram gram

This is also the one shown in the French version of this article.

Funnyhat (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mandarin version

The phonetic Mandarin version given isn't very good. I'm not sure what the source is but it isn't proper pinyin. Can we get this in proper pinyin or hanzi, or even an English translation? Pfmiller (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Current versions

Hey, I like content just as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, the "Current Versions" section is.. unneeded. Keep in mind that this page already had versions in different languages. I'd go ahead and remove it myself, but I don't like provoking BAWWWWWs. Will some brave soul go ahead and kill it? Aaron ► 07:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, nothing is sourced, so at this point, an equally unsourced argument of "I've never heard that one before" applies to all of these. Not that sourcing them would give them any reason to be here. Aaron ► 07:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "current Versions" section includes all the versions in different languages - do you think they all should go?

Looking at the page again, I do think that the history section should be moved up after the intro, dropping all these alternate versions down lower. However, I think the intro should have one current version in it, for readers who don't know what we're talking about (although then we would have to decide: which version?) - DavidWBrooks 17:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Clean up time

I plan to get around to a clean-up of this article: wikifying format (italics are not needed for quotes), putting countries in alphabetical order, and adding in-line references where I can. I will give it a little time for comment here.--Sabrebd (talk) 09:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have been wondering about the long and ever-growing list of counting rhyme in other languages. They don't seem to me to belong in this article unless they specifically use syllables similar in sound to "eeny meeny ..." imploying that they have some direct historical connection with the English-language version. The fact that all these counting rhymes exist is relevant to the article - it raises the possibility that eeny,meeny is just one of a number of versions of counting rhymes that have spontaneously erupted - but the long list that now exists just drives away readers, IMHO. Not sure how to trim it, however, but it's worth a thought. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Norwgian and Swedish version can be deleted. The Swedish version has no connection with the original content, nor rhyme! The Norwegian starts with elle melle that might have derived from eeny meeny, but the rest has connection with sailing ships. And the last line I have never heard. They both serve the same purpose as Eeny Meeny, but that is not what this article is about. --Vbakke (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC) (Norwegian, 1974)[reply]

I have to say I agree. I cannot see why some of these are included and with others I simply have no way of judging whether they are derived from the same rhyme. This is not helped by the lack of sources. No doubt if we start deleting verses there will be howls of protest. Perhaps we could archive the ones with no obvious connection and give time for editors to give sources. You are right that something has to be done as this article is very hard to read at the moment.--Sabrebd (talk) 08:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a start, we could move them all the bottom of the article en mass, and put something like this in front:

Simple counting rhymes are common in languages throughout the world, although it's often not clear whether they have any historical connection to Eeny, meeny. Some examples include:

Or perhaps we should create a whole new article, Counting rhymes, and move them all there ... - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Already is one: Counting-out game. They could go on Wikisource--Sabrebd (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]