Talk:Masamune

Elaboration of parts of the Masamune Article

That story at the end...I've never heard anything like that and I've kept an eye on such things...is that for real? That had to be added recently...Somebody with better knowledge than I probably should check on that...Lord Sephiroth 04:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me like somebody's been playing a few too many Final Fantasy games and they've developed an overactive imagination. I've heard of no story about a specific sword named the Masamune, and if this was supposed to be a reference to the sword carried by the villain in the FF7 video game, it's just outright false. I suggest a Wikipedia user with the power to do so just delete the whole section. --70.188.133.225 17:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Ha ha...I like that response. I agree totally, and I'm going to do it. If anyone has any problems, revert the article. Lord Sephiroth02:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The legend exists and has nothing to do with RPGs. I can't find any authoritative sources, but it's certainly widely disseminated on the Japanese internet: see e.g. #229 on [1]. — Haeleth Talk 16:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hah, that'll teach me to check the article history before I speak. I assumed you meant the leaf thing. Certainly the one you actually removed was nonsense. — Haeleth Talk 16:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The entire article needs work, more links are needed to explain terms in this article. I've added the expert tag to the article. - Squilibob 10:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I've heard many references to a masamune being a class of katana. It is supposedly a Nodachi on steroids.

I don't believe so. I don't have any authoritative sources stating otherwise, but I'm pretty sure that Masamune was just a swordsmith. I don't think there is any sword specifically called masamune. There is however, a page about a masamune sword that I reccomend merging with this one. mnyquist 6:21, 25 December 2005 (EST)

I agree with the merger since the other article isn't much by itself. Might be good to have a picture of it up too. About the legend, it is true, definetely read it somewhere. 128.6.175.96 20:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The merger should be done, for the Honjo Masamune article isn't much of an article by itself. And by the way, Masamune was a sort of legendary swordsman. The Masamune swords in the Final Fantasy series are just a derived from the real life Masamune katanas, and the story at the end of the Masamune article was only a legend. Nobody ever said it was actually a true story. --Myoukami 02:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There actually was a katana with the name Masamune; I just can't remember if it was the first or the last sword made by the actual sword master and smith Masamune: any one is welcome to verify it - I can't find any links to an authorative source, but I definitely read it somewhere. If I find it, I'll edit this again. ~y3

I would support articles on individual swords that are formally recognized by the government of Japan as National Treasures, since they are as much characteristic works of art as paintings and sculptures are. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 20:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that this is the sword under discussion. We'd need a better source, though, as this one doesn't meet WP:V. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 21:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Worth mentioning that the entire first section is plagirised from a listed source.[[2]]TrevorRC 17:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The Article opens describing Masamune as being "widely regarded" as the greatest swordsmith of japan... This is not the case, there is no consensus on the topic, and there's no citation to back the person who wrote that's opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.118.206.3 (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

One of the citations, apparently a significant one, is a non-scholarly essay written on a "Final Fantasy" site. This is surely not worthy of authoritative citation.

Foreign terms need clarification

I quote this section-

"Masamune studied under Kunimitsu and made blades in suguha but he made magnificient notare hamon which has never been found in Kunimitsu's. There are also some blades with ko-midare which appears to have been copied from the Old Bizen and Hoki styles. His works are well characterized by rich chikei and kinsuji, and beautiful nie. Swords created by Masamune often are referred to with the smith's name (much the same way that other pieces of artwork are), often with a name for the individual sword as well. The Honjo Masamune, a symbol of the Tokugawa shogunate and passed down from one shogun to another, is perhaps the best known Masamune sword."

Terms like Suguha, notare hamon, ko-midare, chikei, kinsuji, and so on, need clarification or definition for non-experts like myself. I know very little about sword making, so those terms are simply confusing for someone not familiar with it. Can someone who knows this stuff fix up that section? Errick 01:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I know a few of those words, but I really don't have the expertise of language skills to write an article. I can explain the ideas to someone else who can actually speak japanese. Also, I read an article not to long ago about Masamune on a Japanese Historical site. It seemed quite credible. Someone ought to try googling it. It had more information about his life than I've seen anywhere else. MacGyver221

Factual Inaccuracies

Near the end of the article it mentions that Masamune lived in a peaceful age in Japanese history, which is false. The late Kamakura and Nambokucho were times of intense civil war, first against the Hojo regents and then between the Northern and Southern Imperial Courts. The fact that many of his blades are cut-down no-dachi swords meant exclusively for war and useless for civillian wear in a peaceful age attests to this. Kensai Max 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Masamune family today

Hi anyone whos reading this article might find this interesting, go down to a message from Christopher. I don't doubt what hes saying although it would be nice to know how he knows hes "verified and authentic". I might try and contact him and see what info I can dig up. Its certinatly an interesting line of enquiry dont you think! -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 00:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have verified the information "and his descendants still live in the Kamakura city"iwakuni-art-museum.org -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 01:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Honjô" Masamune

The kanji for "Honjô" is most definately not 本城 (primary castle) - the "jô" is 庄 (unfortunately I can't make out the first Kanji on the image I have) - so that sentence should be modified or deleted from the article. --Kuuzo 21:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the final result is that the "Honjô" is 本庄, the family name of the first owner of the sword: 本庄越前守重長 (Honjô Echizen no kami Shigenaga). So that line in the article is incorrect. --Kuuzo 01:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It may be wrong its only based on the fact that the word Honjo is used in connection with various castles as a Samurai definition. As you said it depends on how Honjo is spelt and on where the name Honjo Masamune came from in the first place. "Honjô is a Japanese word" the point I was trying to make was the word was used by Samurai to denote a primary castle. Perhaps "Honjô is a word used by Samurai" would have been better. One thing I can be certain of is Honjô "Echizen no kami" Shigenaga cannot be the first owner of the sword. The two sites that talk about him so far[3], date him to around 1539-1613, so he cannot have known Masamune (208 years too late). We know he possessed the sword by getting it in battle so its quite possible it gained the name from its connection with him. Ill add that now as it sounds quite plausible as an origin of the name. -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 03:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point about his birth, I'm checking into that now - my source just said "original owner", which might mean "first recorded" owner, unless it is another Honjo Shigenaga. However, the kanji on the sword is definately 本庄 and not 本城 (primary castle) - Homonyms only work in spoken Japanese, not in written Japanese. And it wasn't necessarily "in battle", but I'll see if I can find out about that too. --Kuuzo 04:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I would recon so, its probably one of those situations where we would never determine who the sword was originally created for. Unless the sword turned up and had some inscription on it not recorded until now. The article says the sword was taken off of Umanosuke, who attacked Shigenaga, so he would be the first known wielder but 'Umanosuke' is pretty ambigious considering there are quite a few of them! I can't ask the person who originally brought all the info together as he is now deceased. Thanks for putting me stright on the primary castle and for telling me Shigenaga was Honjo Shigenaga. Looking forward to seeing what other interesting info you can dig up :) -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 14:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My sources tell me that his was probably the last name to be put on the sword, although other names were probably put on it before. Since his was the most recent name, the sword got his name. I don't know if older names are removed or how that works, so I'll look into it. --Kuuzo 18:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is part of an article translated by a nihonto scholar, maybe it will help out: Honjô Echizen no Kami Shigenaga 本庄越前守重長 ("Shigenaga" is also sometimes written 繁長) was one of the generals serving under Uesugi Kenshin 上杉謙信 and Uesugi Kagekatsu 上杉景勝. During one of the Uesugi campaigns, Shigenaga attacked and overthrew the Dewa Shônai 出羽庄内 castle which was held by Daihôji Yoshioki 大宝寺義興. After the siege, Shigenaga was approached by Tozenji 東善寺 (or 東禅寺) Umanosuke 右馬介, a retainer of Daihôji, under the pretense of showing him some captured heads. Umanosuke attacked Shigenaga, and managed to cut the latter's helmet in half - seriously wounding him - before he was finally overcome and slain by Shigenaga. The sword that was used in the assassination attempt turned out to be made by Masamune, and had sustained some chips on the edge from cutting Shigenaga's helmet. How it came into the possession of Umanosuke in the first place is unknown - the original owner certainly wasn't in the condition to answer questions anymore. Shigenaga kept it as a war trophy, and later it was sold to Toyotomi Hidetsugu 豊臣秀次. It then went to Toyotomi Hideyoshi 豊臣秀吉, Shimazu Yoshihiro 島津義弘, again to Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu 徳川家康, Tokugawa Yorinobu 徳川頼宣, and finally Tokugawa Ietsuna 徳川家綱. It remained in the Kii 紀伊 branch of the Tokugawa family, the last known owner being Tokugawa Iemasa 徳川家正 at the end of WWII.

Great stuff, interesting that Hyogo Yoshihiro becomes Shimazu Yoshihiro, I don't like red links so its nice to see another one bite the dust. If we can reference the material you found when its added to the article that would improve its status. The story in the article and what you found out are very similar so it adds some credibility to the rest of the info for the swords section. We also have a name for our attacker Tozenji Umanosuke which is nice to know don't you think? Best Regards -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 17:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure about Muramasa?

It says in this article that Muramasa dated his swords, and was working right around 1500. But the birthdate listed for him in the article Senzo Muramasa (should be Muramasa Senzo), is given as 1341: a little late, but not 200 years late, to have been Masamune's pupil. He founded a smithing style, though; is it possible that the Muramasa sword that dated to 1500 was simply a sword in the Muramasa style?Also, are we sure the dates have all been converted properly? Aside from the different dating conventions, lunar years don't map, one-to-one, onto Gregorian. Nagakura shin8 10:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not good with wiki-editing, but the Muramasa article was incorrect, he did not live in Oei, he lived around 1500, there were probably three generations using this name. The famous smith is the second generation, most of his works are dated between 1504 and 1520 or so.

Errors in Fudo Masamune paragraph

I replaced the "Lords" with the full names of the period's most notorious people of that name and fixed the broken sentences based on the cited source, but the data cannot be accurate as given. In 1601, when Hidetsune is supposed to have bought the sword, he was already dead, as was Maeda Toshiie, who was also an arch-rival of Tokugawa Ieyasu and thus unlikely to receive costly gifts from him.--Brazzy 20:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If his name is Masamune Okazaki...

..why is the page title his last name only, instead of his full name? 66.63.86.156 (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not likely to be his name. Citing Fujishiro's Nihon Token Jiten, page 387: "As for Masamune, there is a story that because his name is said to be Okazaki Gorô, he is a bushi with a lineage, and therefore his works are few. This name, which makes one recall Okazaki Saburô [TN: Tokugawa Nobuyasu], the eldest son of Ieyasu, and who was made to commit seppuku by Nobunaga, is probably a fabrication of a later time." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.222.117 (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Katanas?

The article claims Masamune manufactured katanas. But I'm given to understand katanas as such did not exist during the time in which he was alive. Would it be more accurate to say he manufactured tachis or uchigatanas? --Nivenus (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

He would have made tachi, tanto, and naginata.

Erm, naginata are spears, yes? I thought Masamune just did swords. Suigetsu 19:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Helmet Breaker

I deleted the "helmet breaker" that was listed here as a Masamune. There are only three or maybe four legitimate examples of this swordsmith's signature, and they are all in the same form: Kamakura tanto. The style that this helmet breaker is signed in is a late Edo period style, it uses grass script which was not used in the Kamakura or Nanbokucho periods by anyone. Understand that this is the equivalent of showing a painting that has a signature of "van Gogh" on it, and then taking a picture of it and putting it up as a wikipedia reference for people. Without proper authentication and attribution of a work, it is not a reference example to be shown in an encyclopedia, it is a curiosity. Given the fact that swords by this swordsmith start at a price of about $350,000 and go up, there is a financial benefit to people who might want to claim their item was authored by this smith. Nobody should be putting up any links or images of works that have not been authenticated by highly regarded experts in the field as a result. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.222.117 (talk) 20:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Okazaki

This name is at best a fabrication, very little is actually known about Masamune the man. I am deleting it's listing in the main article as "fact", especially since the citation used is a link to an online chat forum where someone makes the statement "his name is Okazaki." That does not meet the guidelines for a reference worth citing. I am replacing the "factual" mention with a reference to the name as one of the old stories with no known basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.222.117 (talk) 20:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

in modern culture

should it be noted the apperances of the Masamune in the final fantasy series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.78.8.102 (talk) 15:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)