Talk:Abu Musa

NPOV?

Not really a NPOV, as the UAE claim sovereignty over the island (and 2 other islands in the Gulf). Iran refuses international arbitration.

let's mention that Abu Musa is an arabic word, what do you think ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.241.239.194 (talk) 04:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

the Locals call it Gap Sabzu a Persian name means the big green. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The Greater and Lesser Tunbs and The island of Abu musa are Iranian islands in the Persian Gulf

The Persian Gulf

The Persian Gulf is a crescent-shape groove which has demonstrated the encroachment of the Indian Ocean waters (Makrân Sea, also known as Gulf of Oman) in an span of 900 km long and 240 km wide in the inferior folds of southern Zagros mountains. The Persian Gulf and its neighboring countries constitute almost one ninth of the 44 million square km span of the Asian continent (1). The Persian Gulf has been a valuable waterway since the beginning of history and as the venue of the collision of great civilizations of the ancient East, it has a background of several millenniums (2). Since centuries ago, the Ilamites used the Port of Bushehr and the Khârg Island for dwelling, shipping and ruling over the coasts of the Persian Gulf as well as transaction with the West Indies and the Nile Valley (3). In the Latin American geography books the Persian Gulf has been referred to as More Persicum or the Sea of Pars (4).

The Latin term "Sinus Persicus" is equivalent to "Persicher Golf" in German, "Persico qof" in Italian, "Persidskizalir" in Russian and "Perusha Wan" that all mean "Pars" (5). and le golf perse in French

Prior to the stationing of the Aryan Iranians on Iran's Plateau, the Assyrians named the sea in their inscriptions as the "bitter sea" and this is the oldest name that was used for the Persian Gulf (6).

An inscription of Darius the Great found in the Suez Canal, used a phrase with a mention of river Pars which points to the same Persian Gulf.

The Greek historian Herodotus in his book has repeatedly referred to the Red Sea as the "Arab Gulf" (7), and Straben, the Greek historian of the second half of the first century BCE and the first half of the first century AD wrote: Arabs are living between the Arabian Gulf and the Persian Gulf (8).

Ptolemy, another renowned Greek geographer of the 2nd century has referred to the Red Sea as the "Arabicus Sinus", i.e. the Arabian Gulf. In the book `the world boundaries from the East to the West' which was written in the 4th century Hegira, the Red Sea was dubbed as the Arabian Gulf.

Today, the most common Arabic works refer to the sea in south Iran as the "Persian Gulf", including the world famous Arabic encyclopedia `Al-Monjad' which is the most reliable source in this respect (9).

There are undeniable legal evidences and documents in confirmation of the genuineness of the term Persian Gulf. From 1507 to 1560 in all the agreements that Portuguese, Spanish, British, Dutch, French and Germans concluded with the Iranian government or in any other political event everywhere there is a mention of the name Persian Gulf (10).

Even in agreements with the participation of Arabs there is a mention of "Al-Khalij al-Farsi" in the Arabic texts and "Persian Gulf" in English texts, such as the document for the independence of Kuwait which was signed between the emir of Kuwait and representatives of the British government in the Persian Gulf.

The document, which was signed on June 19, 1961 by Abdullah As-Salem As-Sabah, has been registered in the Secretariat of the United Nations according to article 102 of the U.N. Charter and can be invoked at any U.N. office (11).

Since the beginning of the 20th century, the name "Persian Gulf" has been used in geography and history books with less reference to the "Fars Sea". Such a change has suggested the idea that the "Fars Sea" had been an old name substituted by a new term "Persian Gulf" (12)

The beginning of 1930s was a turning point in the history of efforts for changing the name of Persian Gulf when Sir Charles Bellgrave, (?) the British diplomatic envoy in Iranian island of Mishmâhig, which today known as Bahrain opened a file for the change in the name of the Persian Gulf and proposed the issue to the British Foreign Office. Even before the response of the British Foreign Office he used the fake name (in an attempt to retake Bahrain, the Tunbs, Abu Musa, Sirri, Qeshm, Hengam and other islands belonging to Iran and to disclose and thwart the plot of disintegration of Khuzestan) (13).

Besides all the disputes that have been made over the name of the Persian Gulf, the United Nations with its 22 Arab member countries has on two occasions officially declared the unalterable name of the sea between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula as the Persian Gulf. The first announcement was made through the document UNAD, 311/Qen on March 5, 1971 and the second was UNLA 45.8.2 (C) on August 10, 1984. Moreover, the annual U.N. conference for coordination on the geographical names has emphatically repeated the name "Persian Gulf" each year (14).

Although using the "Arabian Gulf" instead of the "Persian Gulf" has no basis and will not be accepted in any culture or language, however, it will not diminish our responsibility in expressing the reality and eliminating ambiguities as the main and oldest inhabitants of the region.

HISTORICAL SITUATION OF GREATER AND LESSER TUNBS, ABU MUSA "The Greater Tunb Island is limited from north to Qeshm Island, from west to the Lesser Tunb, from south to Abu Musa and Raas al-Khaima and from east to Oman (15). The island is called the Greater Tunb, Gap Tunb, Tunb-e Mar, Greater Tunb-e Mar, etc..." (16).

In the Islamic era up to the recent centuries the Greater Tunb Island was part of the states of Fars, Kerman, Mokran and Hormuzgan.

In 1884 it was part of the Persian Gulf ports. In 1949 together with 29 other islands it was a village under the district of Lengeh. In 1951, it was part of the village Mazdouqi in Lengeh district of the city of Lar. In 1954, it was a village in Abu Musa district of Bandar Lengeh port city. In 1958, Abu Musa and Great Tunb districts jointed together and formed a large district with Kish Island as its center. In 1976, it became part of the city of Kish. In 1982, it became part of the city of Abu Musa. In 1991, the Great Tunb Island was part of the Tunb district of the city of Bu Musa (17).

The Greater Tunb Island due to its far distance from the Strait of Hormuz has no strategic importance by itself. However, given Iran's strategic situation, it is considered an important link in the defensive line of Iran in the Strait of Hormuz (18).

The Lesser Tunb Island is neighboring the city of Lengeh in the north, Abu Musa Island in the south, the Greater Tunb Island in the east and Faroo and Faroogan islands in the west. The island is rectangular in shape (19).

Footnotes:

1- Institute of Political and International Studies, selected Persian Gulf documents, volume 1, page 5 2- Ibid, page 5. 3- Mehdi Azimi, "Persian Gulf Political History", Port and Sea, Nos. 41-41, page 2 4- Institute of Political and International Studies, series of articles of seminar on Persian Gulf issues, page 135 5- Institute for Political and International Studies, selected Persian Gulf documents, volume 1, page 18, Institute of Political and International Studies, series of articles of seminar on Persian Gulf issues, page 136. 6- Seyed Hassan Mousavi, "A brief discussion on historical-political geography of the Persian Gulf...", sociology and humanities of Shiraz University, page 118. 7- Institute of Political and International Studies, selected Persian Gulf documents, pages 18-22, Institute of Political and International Studies, series of articles of seminar on Persian Gulf issues, page 137. Seyed Hassan Mousavi "A brief discussion on historical-political geography of the Persian Gulf..." sociology and humanities of Shiraz University, page 118. Mehdi Azimi, "Persia Gulf Political History", Port and Sea, page 22. 8- Institute of Political and International Studies, selected Persian Gulf documents, volume 1, page 22. 9- Ibid, page 146. 10- Institute of Political and International Studies, series of articles of seminar on Persian Gulf issues, page 148. 11- Institute of Political and International Studies, ibid, page 149. 12- Pirouz Mojtahedzadeh, "Persian Gulf in return for history", political and economic, Nos. 105-106, page 26. 13- Pirouz Mojtahedzadeh, "Persian Gulf in return for history", political and economic, Nos. 105-106, page 27. 14- Pirouz Mojtahedzadeh, "Persian Gulf in return for history", Nos. 105-106, page 28. 15- Iraj Afshar Sistani, Abu Musa Island and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, page 105. 16- Iraj Afshar Sistani, ibid, page 11. 17- Iraj Afshar Sistani, ibid, page 119. 18- Iraj Afshar Sistani, Abu Musa Island and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs, page 121. 19- Ibid, page 123.

http://azadi.pejman.googlepages.com/home

http://pejman.azadi.googlepages.com/thepersiangulf&itsname

Axamir's comments in regards to UAE's claim

Axamir, you have several times attempted to erase note of UAE's claim on the islands, delete the islands' Arabic names, and otherwise make uncited assertions that go against the facts and their much-discussed presentation. You have also several times done the same at the Tunbs article. If you have arguments that have not been addressed on this Talk page, present them. PRRfan (talk) 16:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• I think that PRRfan is correct and that any further chnages should be discussed here first. --evrik ^(talk) 15:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Copied from Axamir's comment left on PRRfan's talk page:

1- As for adding Arabic texts to the English page of an Iranian Island, it is not acceptable. Please keep the Arabic in the Arabic page.

2- As far as UAE's or any other country's claim, it has not yet been proven right. If there is any claim, it needs to be well referenced and placed in the claim part of the page.

Please consider this the last warning. No more correspondence will be entertained. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Axamir (talk • contribs) 18:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

1) Why is including the Arabic-language names on this English-language page unacceptable? It's done all over the English-language Wikipedia. 2) The fact of the claim is indeed well-referenced; that's exactly what the footnote is there for. The burden is upon you to find a source that denies that there is such a claim.PRRfan (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

1) It is not acceptable to write Arabic or any other foreign languages in English page. What is the point?! They have put down an Arabic page for such purposes. Why not adding some Arabic text to other city's pages like New York, Chicago?!!!! 2) The reference you provided is not valid. We can not reach to any conclusions. Your account along with your IP address have been reported to Wikipedia for further follow up and possible ban from the website. Please note that adding things without a valid reference will set the ground for disciplinary actions.

Hi, Axamir. Your user contributions page indicates no such "reporting," but thanks for continuing the discussion. You're going to have to do better than to say "the reference is not valid." It seems fair to infer from your edits that you believe that UAE's claim on Abu Musa and the Tunbs is invalid. That's your opinion (and one shared, of course, by Iran). Yet the fact that UAE has repeatedly made such a claim is a fact. Even Iran's foreign ministry officials confirm this (See, for example, http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_23722.shtml). Therefore, the article reflects this. I have added a few more citations to the article for good measure. PRRfan (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Abu Musa, Greater and Lesser Tunbs, UAE

I think the basic point that these islands Abu Musa, Greater and Lesser Tunbs, belongs to the United Arab Emirates according to several sources. and doesn’t mean that Iran is having control over these islands presently, that these islands belong to iran .so the article should be well-balenced and respect the Emirati demand over the islands.--Elmondo21st (talk) 00:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, to be fair to both sides, maybe we should just not have the infobox. Less intense options are to remove any data which puts the island in a specific country (such as listing Iran or the UAE) or to list Abu Musa being in both countries. But, we should take into account that Iran is the current owner/occupier/administrant of the island and the infobox should also demonstrate that. Leitmanp (talk | contributions) 02:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The UAE's claim is given due weight. To give both sides equal weight would violate this policy IMO, since not the UN or anyone else has ever made a resolution about it (which means most countries recognize the status quo as Abu Musa being part of Iran). Since it is not only de facto a part of Iran but also de jure as well, I'm not so sure if it would go in accordance to the undo weight policy to give the UAE POV equal weight. Also, there is no international document that says the island belongs to the UAE as far as I know. Khoikhoi 05:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The first time when the claim was made by UAE, the issue went to the United Nation. It was put to vote and the issue and claim rejected unanimously. --Axamir (talk) 01:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC) Normally when a claim is rejected at the United Nation, the issue is closed, it can not be reopened and put to vote again (This is part of the international rules and regulations).--Axamir (talk) 01:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC) So, the UAE can not go any where with its claim because it is not legitimate. Whenever the tension builds up with Iran or any other country in the region, UAE makes these allegations even thought they all know nothing would come out of it.--Axamir (talk) 01:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

meh

Both countries have some form of claim to the island, so it's historical ownership is disputed and at this point unresovleved by the countries. It is not important that the UN voted down the resolution, what's important is the current controler of Abu Musa, and how the dispute is changing. Da Baron (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)