Talk:List of automotive superlatives

Archives
August 2004 to April 2005 April 2005 to May 2005 May 2005 to September 2005 September 2005 to July 2006

Rules

The following questions have been resolved by a public vote and discussion.

Honorable mentions for disputed entries - A consensus is required before a dispute about an entry bumps it down to honorable mention status.

Production numbers - The "20 produced" rule refers to the superlative version, not just the named model in general.

Most powerful FF car

The Autodelta Alfa Romeo 147 GTA, at 328 hp, is the most powerful front-wheel drive car in the world. We should be agreed on that. I'd be interested to know the criterion for production car that this model fails, since my change to this article was reverted yesterday. 129.22.160.218 20:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It fails criterion #2 at the top of the article: "cars modified by either professional tuners or individuals are not eligible." Autodelta falls under the professional tuner category. Here's an excerpt from the Autodelta article: "Since the group's original demise, the Autodelta name had come to be used by independent British Alfa Romeo tuner Jano Djelalian in 1987 and continues today." VectorD 02:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The distinction between tuners and tuning divisions of automakers is rather small. For example AMG products are always considered Mercedes and thus original. Brabus, which is independent, does so much unique work with Mercedes cars after they receive them that within Germany they are considered an automaker of their own right. So, if it should ever be unclear, which tuning companies are eligible and which ones aren't? Chaparral2J (talk) 10:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that the 1970 Cadillac Eldorado with a 400 HP 8.2 liter V8 is the most powerful FF car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indigo iMac (talk • contribs) 15:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Smallest V8 Engine

I would like to dispute your entry for the Ferrari. The Mazda MX3 had a 1.8 litre V8 engine in it, in Europe at least. I'm not an authority on them but I would suspect this applies to most of the regions they were sold in. Thanks.

I don't think that that's correct (the MX-3 did have a 1.8 L V6, though), but if you can provide a source, feel free to make the change. TomTheHand 00:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The Mazda MX3 had a 1845 cc V6 engine, not V8. Bore and stroke were 75 mm and 69.6 mm. I have an Automobile Revue yearbook that mentions the TVR S3 was once available with a 1948 cc V8 engine (smaller than the Ferrari), but I can't find any proof that engine was actually used in a production vehicle. --Pc13 12:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

First transverse

We now has the first transverse engine as the 1949 SAAB 92, but in Transverse engine it says the 1931 DKW Front. I haven't manage to find any source to back it up, but it's not unlikley as the SAAB 92 was designed to be "a modern DKW". // Liftarn

Hybrid vehicles

On http://www.aircaraccess.com/pics01.htm there is a mention of a hybrid car. It gives very little details, but it seems to be from sometimes in the early 20th century/late 19th century thus beating Toyota Prius with about 100 years. Does anyone know more? // Liftarn

I think there were a handful of gas-electric hybrids made in that time frame, such as the Woods Dual Power (http://www.petersen.org/default.cfm?docid=1043). The main section of this article is for post-WWII cars, though there is a pre-war section where it could be mentioned. DoktorRocket 04:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It says "except for the Firsts section" so it should go in there. // Liftarn

Belgian Auto-Mixte (there is a book in the French language about this brand) was the first "modern" hybrid car, as it used the same kind of techniques; regenerating energy from braking, petrol engine kicking in when extra power was needed etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.134.94.21 (talk • contribs) 15:31, November 8, 2006.

According to this page, the Lohner-Porsche beat the Auto-Mixte (and the Woods Dual Power) to the punch using an almost identical system. --DeLarge 16:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The Lohner-Porsche sounds like it may have had electric transmisson rather than a hybrid drive. // Liftarn

Technically speaking, that still makes it a "series hybrid" ... and it had a bank of "accumulators" (i.e. batteries, or capacitors, depending who you ask/what language you speak) charged off the combustion engine that then powered the electric motors. Though it may have been constructed to solve different problems than modern-day hybrids (limited engine speed range and durability, poor engine power for efficient standing starts (could charge up the accumulators at a standstill then rapidly near-drain them to get going), lack of decent geared transmission technology, etc, vs fuel/energy economy and noise/emissions), the technical concept behind it and the execution of such still hold. It looks like quite a piece of work in fact - hub motors, over 80% drivetrain efficiency, beautifully simple arrangement, etc, and 105 years old! 82.46.180.56 (talk) 21:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Some possible corrections...

1. "Best-selling American Sedan - Ford Taurus (more than 7,000,000 sold in 4.5 generations sold between 1986 and 2006)". Do we really need market-specific superlatives? For example, with a bestselling American sedan present, could be disallow an editor adding in what the bestselling sedan in The Philippines was, or the bestselling pick-up in South Africa? There's also the small matter of the Chevrolet Impala possibly outselling it, if I could find sales figures for the sedan body style of the Chevy...
2. Honorable mentions for "Lowest selling vehiles". I don't see any reason for inclusion for these:

• "Sports car - avg. 79 per month, Bricklin SV-1 (2,857 sold in 3 years)"
• "SUV - avg. 200 per month, Suzuki X-90 (7,205 sold in 3 years)"

I'm going to be bold and delete every one of these entries, unless there's an objection. --DeLarge 16:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. --DeLarge 19:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

A new reference is needed for the Veyron's 0-100-0 time, the current external link is dead. Meio 18:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Power Ratings?

Are all these power ratings to the wheels or to the crankshaft? --Russoc4 19:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

To the crankshaft. Manufacturers generally do not rate power to the wheels. TomTheHand 19:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Thanks. --Russoc4 00:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

First directional headlamps

1928 Willys-Knight 70A Touring. Notice the directional headlight.

For the heading "First directional headlamps" we have an mention of the 1948 Tucker Torpedo, but it wasn't first (Tatra had it in the 1930s) and it didn't have directional headlamps on the production models. So why mention it? // Liftarn

I found this (pictured) 1928 Willys-Knight 70A Touring that obviously have a directional headlamp (zoom the pictre and you shuld see the mechanism). They sold well so the number of manufactured shouldn't be a problem. However this is a bit OR and I don't know when they started using the system. // Liftarn

common rail

where is the first common rail car? metin emre

--86.111.231.50 13:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC) First common rail car was Alfa Romeo 156, then Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI appears.

First fiberglass monocoque

Currently it's listed as being the 1959 Lotus Elite, but I wonder if it may be the 1956 Berkeley T60. It depends if they were actual monocoque (it may be body-on-frame with a fibreglass frame). They were made in fibreglass with aluminium bulkheads and steel sections for the engine support. According to http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/berkeley-t60.html they had a "box-shaped substructure and suspension and engine compartment reinforced with aluminum, forming a fiberglass monocoque structure". // Liftarn

No objections? Alright then. Lotus Elite gets bumped. // Liftarn

Well... according to this link [1], the Elite used fiberglass "for the entire load-bearing structure of the car". According to this link [2], the Elite "featured an all-fiberglass, monocoque chassis". According to the wikipedia article, it did use a steel subframe for the engine and front suspension. I realise this is subjective, but it sounds to me like the Elite was a little farther along in this area than the Berkeley. Perhaps you would reconsider the bump. Maybe a good compromise would be to switch the cars and give the Berkeley an honorable mention? --SpinyNorman 08:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Your first source is just an older version of the Wikipedia article (compare [3] and Lotus Elite). The Berk did have fibreglass chassis so it's first. I found some pictures at http://www.coldplugs.com/berkstoday01.htm that shows how it looks. The Elite chassis is more advanced and it's also a larger car, but the Berk was first. // Liftarn

In that case I'll change it from Berkeley T60 (1959 3-wheeler) to the Berkeley SA322 (1956 4 wheels)Meio 18:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

First all-aluminum body

It is now listed as the 1961 Lagonda Rapide, but what about the Land Rover? Ok, they use an aluminium-magnesium alloy rather then pure aluminium, but still... // Liftarn

The Riley Kestrel preceded this by several decades - 1932. I have changed it accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.186.108.9 (talk) 00:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Most powerful Diesel

Looks like the 2007 Audi Q7 will demolish the most powerful Diesel record... They're saying 500 hp, which is probably 500 PS, but that's still WAY more powerful than any other Diesel! --SFoskett 15:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

And the torquiest as well, at 1000 Nm. However, it won't go on sale just yet. Sales will begin early 2008 only. --Pc13 07:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Drag coefficient

What's the lowest drag coefficient for a production car? General Motors EV1 has a low value (0.195), but they weren't sold to the public so is it Tatra T77 (0.212)? It seems odd nobody have made a more streamlined car since 1935. // Liftarn

Just out of curiosity, what's the source of the Tatra T77's drag factor? And I mean who measured it, not where was it published. The reason I'm asking is that 0.212 seems extraordinarily low. The old Audi 100 made a big fuss in the early 80s when they got to 0.30 using flush windows and so forth (they even had a sticker on the rear side windows), and the even slippier Opel Calibra was only about 0.28 or thereabouts. The Tatra, while streamlined, doesn't seem like it would be such an order of magnitude better than today's cars, and I'm wondering if they had a different way of calculating drag factor back then. --DeLarge 17:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I've googled a bit and added a few sources. It is etraordinary low, but the T77 was from the start designed to be aerodynamic and they did extensive wind tunnel testing. T77 had thing like a flat underside and door handles inset in the body rather than hanging out. Allt o make it as streamlined as possible. Also keep in mind that it's easier to get a low drag with a smaller surface area. It may also help that the T77 was air cooled so it didn't have to force the air trough a radiator. So I think the value is reasonable. The Audi 100 has a quite reasonable drag coefficient. It's for instcane significantly lower than the Ferrari F40. The GM Calibra is at 0.26, so it's quite aerodynamic. // Liftarn

Just a note: though low surface area reduces drag, I don't think it has anything to do with drag coefficient, which is determined by shape. I am equally skeptical about the T77's drag coefficient. It just doesn't look far more aerodynamic than more modern cars designed for minimum drag coefficient. It may not have to push air through a radiator, but it's still got to push it through the engine's cooling fins. I agree with DeLarge; I would very much like to know who measured a drag coefficient of 0.212, not just a list of places that repeat the figure. TomTheHand 15:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Drag coefficient is the ratio of the drag of the object in question compared to the drag of a flat plate of notionally zero thickness, with the same frontal area. King Hildebrand 11:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The drag coefficient is more properly defined by pulling it out of the following formula... $\mathbf {F} _{d}={1 \over 2}\rho \mathbf {v} ^{2}C_{d}A$ as seen in drag equation. (kevinthenerd, a mechanical engineering student.)

It's probably in the details. For instance notice the inset door handles. It also has a flat underside (most modern cars don't). Also most modern cars also has at least some focus on creating downforce and thus increases the drag. The T77 was designed to be aerodynamic and they also used a wind tunnel to design it so it's not impossible. Other old cars have acheived impressive figures such as the Saab 92 (0.30 in 1947 despite the flat windscreen) and Rumpler Tropfenwagen (0.28 in 1921). It did have to get the air over the cooling fins, but the engine was in the rear so that may be easier. // Liftarn

Also, given the era and the experimental nature of the time, it probably sacrificed some quotient (maybe a lot) of practicality, handling, economics etc in order to achieve that incredible Cd figure and distinctive profile... plus it may have a large surface area even so :) Modern cars that do similar generally have to compromise on e.g. interior room or affordability, but we're getting better at it. I seem to remember coming across a couple webpages of enthusiast owners who had modified a Honda Civic VX and Geo Metro XFi respectively to be very streamlined (and therefore even more efficient than the original thrifty versions). Neither were particularly minor conversions, though the Civic did at least retain the interior room (unlike the Metro which became a 2-seater), having what amounted to a major and somewhat retro, Tatra/Citroen DS-esque bodykit added, noticably increasing the weight and length (and lowering the ground clearance because of underbody boarding, side skirts, mini spoilers behind the wheels etc)... but it still reached 60 faster (once wind resistance became more important than pushing the weight up to speed) and had a top speed so increased from stock (with no engine or gearbox modifications) that the owner had not yet discovered its terminal velocity. And remember, this was modifying FROM a reasonably modern car that was supposed to be a fuel miser... 82.46.180.56 (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't underestimate how much the skinny tyres of the day effected the cd. There would be a large saving right there compared to any modern car. --LiamE 13:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

All good points. I'm not as skeptical any more. Thanks, guys! TomTheHand 13:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but under what heading should it be placed? // Liftarn

Holden Maloo fastest pickup?

I'm a little iffy on the Holden Maloo being listed as the fastest pickup truck. It's not a truck; it's a "ute", or a car with a pickup bed, similar to the El Camino. Does anyone else have a similar issue? Does an open trunk area make a car into a pickup truck? TomTheHand 15:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I see your dispute, and kind of agree with it; you're maybe thinking that it should be limited to crude old things with a separate chassis? Unfortunately... "The Chevrolet El Camino [is] a car-based small pickup truck..." , and "A pickup truck or pick-up is a light motor vehicle with an open-top rear cargo area", both of which suggest that the Maloo qualifies.

Personally, I'd call it a pickup, but not a pickup truck, but that's just me... --DeLarge 17:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, those are good points. Would anyone be opposed to an honorable mention to the Dodge for fastest body-on-frame pickup? I'm not a Dodge fan by any means, but to me an open-top cargo area does not turn a car into a truck. TomTheHand 15:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the usual usage in the UK is that a pickup is pretty much based around a car design with a conversion to an open cargo deck, usually with intrusive wheel arches. The vehicle with a separate chassis and a load deck above the wheels is a dropside. The sides are usually removable to turn it into a flatbed. --King Hildebrand 11:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

First electric park brake

Wasn't there a Saab from the 1960s with an electric park brake? I'm a bit dubious about the first one being on a Lincoln in 2003. - Richardcavell 05:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the Lincoln may have been proceeded by quite a few. IIRC the outgoing 7-series (E65/E66) had one in 2002 and some Phaeton's seem to have had it as well although that might only be in line with the Passat from 2005. 83.231.210.146 (talk) 17:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

# First aerodynamic design - 1921 Rumpler Tropfenwagen

I'd like to suggest something earlier, what about the 1914 Alfa Romeo Castagna?

http://shl.stanford.edu/Bucky/dymaxion/cars.htm

Thanks for your consideration,

bs

That was justa prototype. The Rumpler Tropfenwagen was a production vehicle. // Liftarn

Cleanup help on Fast cars

Hey guys,

I was hoping to recruit some of you to come have a look at the article Fast cars. I was thinking we could possibly turn it into a list showing the cars that have held the "fastest production car" title through the years. I figured it might be a topic of interest to all of you, so if anyone is interested, could you come give your opinions on Talk:Fast cars on the direction we'd like the article to take? TomTheHand 19:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Two-cylinder engines

Citroen used horizontally opposed two-cylinder engines in its 2CV and derivatives. I believe they started at 435 cc in the 2CV, appeared in a very popular 602 cc version in the later 2CV, Dyane and Ami, and there may have been a late model with about 800 cc before the whole lot disappeared in the 80's. I think these are worth a mention!--King Hildebrand 11:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just checked the 2CV article here, which gives detail of the initial 375 cc engine, and the final 652 cc one. Just for the record, and to start the ball rolling, I'll enter these as smallest and largest two-cylinder engines in the main article. Please feel free to supersede these with better info! King Hildebrand 12:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Horizontally-opposed engines

There's apparently no mention of the horizontally-opposed configuration in this article. Are they considered as a 180° V-layout, and therefore not entitled to their own section? VW beetles and Citroen 2CVs (see above) ran on HO engines, and I doubt if they were alone. I'm not arguing particularly for their inclusion separately but it might be worth mentioning them as a subset of Vs. King Hildebrand 11:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No, flat engines are not the same as 180° Vs, and if we're gonna have 'superlatives' for seemingly every engine variation then horizontally opposed engines should be listed too. We'll leave it up to you then KH, remember to look up Porsche and Subaru as they still use flat engines. Meio 18:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I put in a section on HO twins, because I know a bit about Citroens, having driven Ami, Dyane and 2CV in the past (and now own a Berlingo!). I'm no expert on the subject, so I'm afraid I'll decline your kind invitation to venture into Porsche and Subaru territory!

BTW, please enlighten my benighted ignorance and explain what is the difference between HO and 180° V. (Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound sarcastic - I really want to know!) Thanks. --King Hildebrand 14:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

According to the article on flat flat engines pistons across from each other on HO engines do each stroke at the same time, while on a 180° engine one is two strokes behind the other. Does that make sense? Zephyrus67 17:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Odd, those two definitions just sound like two boxers with different cylinder timings to me... would one of them share a conrod when the other doesn't, anything as concrete as that? As a boxer still needs seperate ones (in order for each opposed pair to move in or out at the same time, for balance), as would any alternative timing other than the complete opposite (which would allow the shared component) and would even be a valid way of doing a "180 V" anyhow, that's the only way I can see of making a firm seperation between them. Also, whoops, I missed this on the way down the list earlier - added to the bottom of this talk page is my own contender for smallest flat-4, the Steyr 50 ("The Austrian Beetle", though it wasn't quite as such, as it predated the VW), noticably smaller than the Ami or even the preproduction Beetles (985cc), at all of 978cc. Strangely, not particularly small for a 4-pot engine, just smallest yet found for this config for whatever reason. 82.46.180.56 (talk) 21:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The difference between a horizontaly opposed (boxer) engine and a V180º is that in the V180 two rods are in the same crakshaft journal, and thus when piston #1 is in TDC the piston sharing journal is in BDC. In a HO every rod has its own journal resulting that when #1 is in TDC the next is TDC also, then BDC, then BDC... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1913boxer (talk • contribs) 20:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Trucks

I understand that this article is about road cars, with goods and industrial vehicles excluded. Yet there is an honourable mention for a Mercedes truck under four-wheel steering. If this one is allowed, then the power and torque of truck engines deserve honourable mentions throughout. I think, for consistency, the Merc should be ruled out. --King Hildebrand 11:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Similarly - Largest V12 engine - 11,508 cc (702 cu in) - 1960 to 1965 GMC Twin-Six "702" for commercial trucks. List seems inconsistent, and I thought that this kind of 'Guiness Book of Records'-type list was discouraged on WKP. If there has been a discussion of the basis for this article, can anyone point me to it, please? Centrepull (talk) 15:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Electric cars

IMO this article should list most powerful & fastest electric cars also. - G3, 13:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

As it has to be reasonable volume, production passenger cars, the list could be a little embarrassing thus far. Hybrids are almost certainly out (as the performance comes mainly from the ICE), and I'm not even sure the EV1 would count (the best so far, until the Tesla FINALLY enters production), as it was only available on lease and was reclaimed from customers when GM decided to revoke such - therefore it was only really a "rental" car, rather than one you could buy. Therefore something awful like the Reva / GWiz would be the title holder, or maybe the less embarrassing but still performance-marginal Th!nk City. 65mph, 120 miles between lengthy charge-ups, woo. Maybe leave it a couple years... the best statistic to use might be "first electric car" which would be not too much later than the first ICE one :) 82.46.180.56 (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Biggest I4...

Actually, I know that 3.6 liter can't be the biggest straigth four ever because my cousin owns a Hino truck equipped with a 4.6 liter straight four diesel and Hino also produced 4.0 liter I4. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.82.198.101 (talk) 00:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

That's true, truck engines typically are large, but this article is pretty much intended for passenger cars only. The 3rd criteria says that commercial or industrial vehicles are ineligible. VectorD 01:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The Toyota Mega Cruiser (similar to an H1 Hummer has an I4 slightly larger than 4.0 liters, and I believe it as sold to the public http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mega_Cruiser —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.215.68.59 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks like a good contender. However, the wiki article says it was only sold to the police and firefighters. I haven't been able to find much from external sources other than to say a few were sold to Australian mining companies it seems. If it could be confirmed as actually being sold to the general public for personal use, then it looks pretty good. VectorD 10:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Production periods

Any room for a superlative for models that have been in continuous production for the longest (and the shortest)?Meio 18:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

GT40 is not a production car.

why is it included in the lowest height. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.21.2.5 (talk) 23:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

Wasn't the Mk III a production road car? // Liftarn

Redlines

Anyone want to include a section on highest redlines for each engine configuration? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.21.2.5 (talk) 23:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I think creating such a section would be difficult. If by redline you mean the bit of red marked on the tachometer, then I think a comparison wouldn't be all that helpful. Manufacturers these days seem to arbitrarily mark the redline anywhere they like, and it could be above or below the actual point the engine stops revving (some cars don't even have a redline!).

But I'm assuming you're referring to the engine cut-out point, which may be a better indication of an engine's capabilities. However, this also poses problems. Old style engines don't necessarily have a set cut-out as such so they can theoretically rev forever until they run out of air or just self-destruct.

I suppose it's possible to make a section using a hybrid of both redlines and cut-outs but I'm not sure how successful that'll be. Perhaps it might be workable. VectorD 08:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Weeeell, why not seperate sections for "highest rev limiter" (which is easiest to check, at least by someone who has access to a candidate car), and "highest manufacturer recommended maximum safe engine speed" (obviously needing a snappier title) which would be the place at which the physical "red line" is at / red zone starts, or even the rpm the user manual recommends you do not exceed other than momentarily/emergencies, in order to "avoid engine damage". (In the case of my two most recent cars - 6500 limiter and 6000rpm redline/recommendation, and 6000 for both). 82.46.180.56 (talk) 20:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Smallest V10 honorable mention.

I added Connaught Type-D GT with a 2.0L V10 in the smallest engines category as a honorable mention since the vehicle is awaiting production currently. It was deleted. Any reason for it?

Here are the specs http://www.connaughtmotorco.com/performance_gt.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.44.168.185 (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

The list

Is this list for car models, brands or part suppliers?. lots of missing model information, so its impossible or very hard to verify those details, some reference or source should be mentioned..--Typ932 13:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Straight-8's

What about Straight 8's? There were plenty of post-war straight-8's made in production cars. Ayengar 20:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Country specifics

Now we have both "First American V6" and "First Japanese V6 engine" and soon we will have "Fist Swedish V6", "First French V6", "First Egyptian V6" and so on for every engine type. It will soon get silly. Can't we just nip in the bud? // Liftarn

These should be removed..., the whole page needs overhauling, lots of errors, when ever possible should exact car model and year be mentioned, if its whole model range that should be mentioned (makes verifying lot easier), maybe 1-3 honorable mentions per case. And the intoruduction should tell if this page is for Car models, Car Brands or part suppliers otherwise there is all kind of stuff, ... ...--Typ932 15:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Honorable mentions are not for second places, they're for one-offs, low volume cars, prototypes, unused projects and special editions. We use them only when warranted. --Pc13 18:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I didnt mean that there should be second places, but there should be clear rules, 20 or more examples produced BRAND and MODEL , not Hella or Goodyear ;) Honorable mention - 1985 Lancia Delta S4 (Homologation special, only 200 road cars produced for Group B regulations) this is clearly over 20 produced road legal model, why its honorable ? or what about Straight-8 Honorable mention - 1920 Duesenberg? where is the model? or First overhead cam engine - 1898 Wilkinson, no info no source link nothing....just some thoughs to make this article better... --Typ932 21:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you're right, I hadn't noticed some of these (the list is very long nowadays)! There's no point in having the Group B homologation specials as honorable only. As for the 1920 Duesenberg with 8 cylinders... I imagine it was available on both the Model A and the Model J. I don't know, pre-WWII cars are not my forte. And these cars are the ones that need proper sourcing, that's for sure. As for technologies, agreed, of course, it's the use in a car that makes them important. --Pc13 21:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that the four group B cars are honorable mention under the "first MR AWD" category because it was unclear which one came first. Seems like it would make more sense to either dig up some data on which one was the first to release 20 road going samples, or to declare it a four-way tie for first. Either way is preferable to bumping them to honorable mention and giving the prize to a car that was released years later. --DoktorRocket 21:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

As far as I can tell this page is complete original research, unless there are sources for these items saying they are the biggest smallest etc. they should probably be deleted, especially as some appear to be contentious. --Daniel J. Leivick 23:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

While there were a finite number of vehicles released for public use, the list is quite lengthy. Would anyone be willing to help me compile a spreadsheet with the relevant data for every single consumer vehicle ever made? We could split our efforts to various manufacturers or countries or eras, and we could tackle this daunting task through distributed efforts. User:kevinthenerd

That is not going to solve the original research problem. Secondary sources indicating the superlative nature of each vehicle will, unfortunately no one seems inclined to provide them. --Daniel J. Leivick 22:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, Kevin! I think you are a trifle overambitious with that one! How many lifetimes do you have to spare? You are right to call for help, but I'm afraid I can't volunteer. Mine is just a passing general and superficial interest. But I'd love to see the results. Good luck! --King Hildebrand 14:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Daniel's point still doesn't seem to have been addresed. This article NEEDS direct, inline citations to other sources that state that "x is the xxxest production car ever built". If this is not done then the list contravenes WP:OR and ought to be deleted. Pyrope 02:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Honourable mention

Why is this even included?　This could, potentially, be extended to include any car an editor wants it to. A list of cars by power seems sketchy enough for a wikipedia article to me, this just seems silly though. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a car magazine... -- Phoeba Wright^OBJECTION! 07:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Well in some cases the car that actually holds the record is disputed by certain wikipedians, so it makes sense to have honourable mentions, for example The Ultima GTR is the world record holder for 0-60 , 0-100-0, and a whole host of other performance superlatives, but the factory have not stated how many they have made (I have even emailed them, but they state that the record is self evident and any google search will find them in an instant so why should they bother publishing up to date production figures - which might be complex for them - so that a bunch of tossers on wikipedia can be 'satisfied' that the GTR is a production car [paraphrased :)]) so we cannot be sure they have made more than 20 GTR720s, so it does not fit within the rules of the list. Other examples of cars that blatantly do not fit, but are included because someone really likes that model and cannot bear to see it excluded (Sledgehammer for example) should indeed be removed IMO. Meio 04:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Split this page / cleanup

This page needs some serious cleanup. This brings up the possibility of making "firsts" a separate article. "Superlatives" and "Firsts" really don't belong together. Zephyrus67 18:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Fastest estate/stationwagon car

I Removed the MG Rover ZT-T 765 Bonneville from the fastest estate car. This was NOT a production car. To the best of my ability, I've found the fastest estate car to be the current model Dodge Magnum SRT8 clicking in at 173 MPH. There may be some obscure European car which is faster so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the Magnum in it's production is indeed faster than the production MG ZT. Here is a gallery of the ZT-T Bonneville specially modified to make the record breaking run: Click

SSChicken 19:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Bore to stroke

I'd like to see superlatives for the most oversquare and most undersquare motors. An undersquare engine has a long stroke for its bore, and an oversquare engine has a big bore for its stroke. Race engines are typically very oversquare for horsepower, but cheaper street cars are typically undersquare for cost, efficiency, and torque. kevinthenerd

Unimog U5000

The 2002 Unimog U5000 is now listed ins eral placed, but does it fullfill the requements to be included? // Liftarn

Well... it sort of fulfills the 3 conditions set at the top of the article, though I would consider an Unimog to be an industrial vehicle (failing point 3). I think the scope of the article should be limited to, as the automobile article states: a passenger vehicle constructed principally for the transport of people rather than goods. I honestly don’t think an Unimog is build with that purpose. --Van helsing 12:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion, many Unimogs of that type are purchased as expedition vehicles or for transporting crew and equipment to remote sites. I could post a link to the brochures and specs, but we're all web enabled adults here. Maybe you're suggesting we disclude anything with substantial cargo capacity such as any other pickup. Meio 13:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course it’s just my opinion; I’m suggesting that we include vehicles with the primary purpose of transporting people, not excluding everything capable of doing something else. And even that’s not a good description, as far as I can see we can still include a bus under current article scope conditions. --Van helsing 15:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is the definition of 'commercial', I have interpreted the relevant condition as 'available for purchase by private individuals' and 'Likely to be used by private individuals as a means of transportation'. If you feel that the U5000 is too extreme, remember that this is a superlatives page. I have also noticed that at 14,500lbs the International CXT is the heaviest vehicle on this list by far. Meio 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I really think that the unimog is not a passanger car. Of couse it can carry people (also a bus can) but it is not car in any way. If we allow the unimog we have allow a lot of trucks.

Remember that if you get rid of the U5000 then there is a very strong argument for also removing the F350, H1 and CXT. Maybe all pickup trucks should indeed be removed.Meio (talk) 17:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggest removing U5000 altogether. If it qualifies, so would a great number of body-on-frame vehicles available for consumers, like passenger vans and light trucks. U5000 has height of 2740 mm (90 in) and has 4,8 litre I4 engine, which would qualify it in additional categories. Also, condition 1) in article states, that vehicles on this list must be "constructed principally for retail sale to consumers, for their personal use, and to transport people on public roads". U5000 clearly fails this, as it is primarily an off-road vehicle aimed for construction, utility and rescue purposes, thus counting as industrial vehicle. At the very best, it could be given honorary mention, but I motion it be removed altogether. --213.216.255.63 (talk) 00:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

'N synchro?

The article says it was first available on the '29 Cad. It was also available on the '29 Lasalle, according to G. N. Georgano, Cars: Early and Vintage, 1886-1930. (London: Grange-Universal, 1985). Did Cad debut first? Trekphiler 13:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

What style

I also notice, there's no mention of the first sedan delivery. Harley Earl 13:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

What would that be? Morris Oxford Van, 1913? Meio 12:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Not so fantastic 4

If the idea is to list production cars, shouldn't "First 4-valve engine - 1913 Peugeot Grand Prix" be replaced? Victor von Doom 14:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Mercedes CLK GTR horsepower

What is the source for the 775 hp figure for the Mercedes CLK GTR? Zephyrus67 13:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Are there accurate production numbers for some of these exotic models?

For example The SSC Ultimate Aero TT is the superlative model of the SSC Aero which according to the page here on wikipedia will be limited to a total of 25 cars for all variants. Will there then be at least 20 of these be built up to Ultimate Aero TT specification, leaving only 5 of other specifications? Maybe the numbers on the SSC Aero page are wrong. According to the rules here the Ultimate Aero TT should be bumped until confirmation that at least 20 have been built can be made. Meio (talk) 19:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Smallest V4

Changed it to the 500cc Honda V4 found in the Magna and Interceptor.129.173.188.67 (talk) 21:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverted. It's automotive, not for motorcycles. --Pc13 (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

First automobile manufacturer

How can Mercedes-Benz be the first automobile manufacturer? There was no such thing as a Mercedes Benz until 1926 when Daimler and Benz merged. The Benz company was indeed founded in 1871, but surely a car manufacturer is only a car manufacturer when it manufacturers cars? something Benz did not do until 1885! By the same logic you could say that Land-Rover should hold this accolade given that its antecendent companies, Rover and Starley were making bicycles in 1869. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.179.248 (talk) 12:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Largest bore and stroke

This article should have the largest bore and stroke. What are the numbers? The biggest bore I can think of is 4.30in, the Cadillac 472 and 500 engines. The longest stroke I can think of is the Vortec 8100 with a 4.37" stroke. 99.240.243.25 (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Many brass era cars will beat both. The '21 Napier, for instance, was 4×5″ bore/stroke; the Stearns 45 5½×5⅜, the '15 Austin (later the Highway King) stroke was 6", to name just 3. Trekphiler (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah there were certainly some odd engines back in the day. A 13L Bugatti inline-4 is going to have a pretty big bore and stroke! What about postwar cars? 99.240.243.25 (talk) 22:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Album version?

I see 1st in-car radio, but not 1st in-car record player, which was an option in some T-birds in the '50s & '60s. Trekphiler (talk) 12:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Smallest flat-4?

I know I would be on shaky footing proposing the VW Kubelwagen as having the smallest 4-pot boxer (at 985cc), as it was a military vehicle (and therefore, not "bought" originally) despite it a/ having a big production run, b/ being for purpose of transporting people and c/ being on sale since (2nd hand...)... and although some of the engines made it to production beetles (kommanderwagens etc), there probably weren't enough. <-- much of my info nicked from the Beetle article as I was sure I remembered it having a sub-1.0L engine, in contrast to the Ami However, regardless of that, I can pip the Ami just with info from an article linked from the VW Bug one... the Steyr 50. 978cc engine (977.5) as standard, with a storming 22 horsepower, proper private-owner passenger car with a reasonable production run, and even an external website reference to "verify" such. Does it qualify? (I altogether wouldn't be surprised if there were even smaller flat 4s than that) 82.46.180.56 (talk) 20:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Higher diesel rpm

I would like to know which is the car with the fastest-turning diesel engine. The fastest I know is the Mercedes Benz OM-604 which is cutting injection at 5300rpm. Does anyone knows any higher? 1913boxer (talk

Least Expensive car

The list shows the Tata Nano as the least expensive car, but the Nano is not yet in production, hence the price is an "illustration" rather than a reality. 842U (talk) 13:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

First Standard seat belt

I am sure that the Volvo Amazon, which came out in 1956, was the first car to have seat belts as standard equipment. The Volvo Amazon was also the first car to have three point seat belts as well. Indigo iMac (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

question to answer

what is the longest wheelbase for a american production vehicle. what year and model

A note about BMW 2.0 twin turbo Diesel power output

This engine, listed as highest specific power for a forced induction engine, does not produce 204ps as stated. The car (123d) has 204ps but this is not all from the diesel engine. The efficient dynamics package is a low level hybrid system so there is an electric motor which provides power when needed. There seem to be no specs on how much the electric motor provides but looking at the difference across other models in the BMW range when they introduced it, 13-14ps, although with the new 7-series they have also claimed 20ps. So the engine is not 204ps, but perhaps 190ps, you just can't tell. Alpina also offer a tweaked version. 83.231.210.146 (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

EfficientDynamics is an energy recovery system. It does not generate power. --Pc13 (talk) 22:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Longest commercial vehicle update

The longest vehicle is actually the Mercedes Sprinter Jumbo, which is 7.3 metres long Davez621 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC).

Oh! My head!

I started to work on corrections (*Cough*Subaru 360*cough*) and then walked away. Wayyyy too many categories. Largest W16? - Richfife (talk) 22:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

New Most Powerful Naturally Aspirated Car

The new lp640sv is said to have around 670bhp when it comes out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.228.27.233 (talk) 13:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The McLaren F1 LM's engine is still more powerful at 680hp, and you must realize that the actual measurement for the LP670-4 is 670PS, not bhp. The actual HP rating for it is 661hp. IXetsuei (talk) 02:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Prod

I'm neutral on it. I don't like the article, but it's kind of inevitable. - Richfife (talk) 18:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to see if something can be made of the article, but my edits shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of its existence. - Richfife (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I proposed the prod, and I was one of the main contributors during the article's infancy, but right now, I feel a deletion is inescapable. I admit most of the stuff I added counted as OR, because I actively searched for items that trumped existing ones, but I didn't try finding a source claiming they were the first, or smallest, or largest. The "rule" for 20 examples (which was used mainly for the engine categories) was not by me, though, although I enforced it. --Pc13 (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

First air conditioning?

"First air conditioning - 1938 Studebaker Commander"

I had always heard it was the 1939 Packard. All the cross-referencing I've done corroborates this. What source cites the 1938 Studebaker Commander? Rael007 (talk) 17:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)Rael007

If you have a reference for it and the existing entry doesn't, don't hesitate to change it. This page is a "My uncle knew a guy that met a guy in a bar once who's brother in law worked with a guy who said he once saw a Foo with Fee attached to it" disaster area. - Richfife (talk)

Correction / Question re: Most torque & Performance

The article says most torque for a petrol engine is the Veyron at 1250 Nm, however in the article for the SSC Ultimate Aero TT it is mentioned that it has 1,483 Nm. Also, the list mentions a 0-60mph performance of 2.3 seconds for the Ultima GTR while the article for the car itself mentions only 2.6 seconds. I think the Veyron should be placed here with a time of 2.46 according to http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Bugatti-Veyron-8.0-W16/217427/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.71.152.62 (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Most specific engine output (power per unit displacement)

The Caparo T1 is listed many times on this list... such as

Most specific power (power to weight ratio)

   * 1045 hp/metric ton (1.91 lb/hp) - 2007 Caparo T1 V8 engine 575 hp (429 kW) and 470 kg (1036 lb)

when I do the calculations, it has a specific output of 164.29 hp/liter. from 3.5 liters (naturally aspirated) The currently listed car is 142.3 hp/litre - 1994 JDM Suzuki Cultus Suzuka edition R13B (138 kW (188 PS/185 hp) 1.3 L I4) - furthermore, it is marked "citation needed" and I can't find anywhere that actually states that engine was used in that car. The wiki page for the car states that the cultus used b family engines and not r family engines so I am beginning to doubt whether this is correct anyway. Can someone please confirm this and change it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.248.177.227 (talk) 18:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The BMW S42 engine, a racing variant of the M42 engine, produced up to 315 bhp from 1.999 ltr, which is approximately 157.6 bhp/ltr, more than the currently listed engine, although slightly less than the V8 above.