Talk:Lower Silesia

Which version is better

would someone be so kind and speak out to whether my version of the article is better or the other one.Jadran91 (talk) 21:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear Jadran, simply, you added towns from Lusatia, not from Silesia. Both countries are different. Does you have proof of opposite? If yes, of course, add these Lusatian towns. As I understand, you probably by error confuse Prussian province of Lower Silesia and country Lower Silesia. --Yopie (talk) 16:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Historically the county of Glatz/Kladsko/Klotzko was part of Bohemia and not of Silesia, why wasn't Kłodzko deleted too? Karasek (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

as can be seen here, http://www.kreis-goerlitz.de/city_info/webaccessibility/index.cfm?waid=132 , the coat of arms of lower silesia is official part of the coat of arms of kreis görlitz

as can be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Lusatia in section inhabitant, it is mentioned that silesian is still partially spoken in the east of upper lusatia i wonder why silesian is spoken there if it wasnt part of historic silesia because languages cant be imported just due to political changes

the region franconia, which makes up almost half of bavaria, and where people dont even speak bavarian but franconian also wasnt part of bavaria earlier. but i cant see an article about bavaria that excludes franconia.

its normal that historic regions change their dimensions during time

of course it can be said, that the real old historic lower sileasia ended at bóbr and kwisa, but due to the fact that the date is 1815, i think that its also historic already. cause genereations have grown up there and felt silesian, and therefore the article and the city list would be incomplete without these parts

it exists an article about województwo dolnośląskie, in which of course Zgorzelec is mentioned, one about Dolny Śląsk in which its also mentioned, one about Śląsk where its also mentioned and one about Prowincja Śląsk in which its also mentioned. To create an article about Lower silesia without Zgorzelec and other cities west of it, an article Lower Silesia prior to 1815 should be made following the example of the article Altbayern , Old Bavaria, which excludes FranconiaJadran91 (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• Dear Jadran, please read WP:RS first. We need reliable sources, not original researchand subjective feelings. About country and administrative regions - Czechoslovakia was divided to regions (kraje) (see Administrative divisions of Czechoslovakia) and one was Severomoravský kraj (Region of the North Moravia), but this region include whole Czech Silesia. With your logic Czech Silesia was united with Moravia and now is "deleted" from maps. Of course, today is this commies mistake repaired and exist Moravian-Silesian Region. Again, don't mix Lower Silesia and Province of Lower Silesia. --Yopie (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear Yopie you impute a logic to me that i absolutely dont have. According to that logic, i would have to believe that all historic regions in the former GDR are deleted from the map because they were once integrated into several gdr boroughs http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:DDR_Verwaltungsbezirke_farbig.svg this is not comparable to the situation as we have it in upper lusatia The inhabitants of the former saxon parts of lower silesia may at the beginning not have felt silesian, but within 130 years, this region slowly adapted to the rest of silesia, until it was natural for people havin been born there to be silesian. may be lusatian too, but also silesian May the incorporation of that region not have been voluntarily, but by and by it became silesian and this not only in a political context but also cultural. and why do people speak silesian there? and why is the integration of the silesian coat of arms in the görlitz coat of arms not proof enough. do they include it just for fun the region is in lusatia, but parts of lusatia are lower silesian. its lower silesian upper lusatia and why is franconia and bavarian swabia included in each bavaria article this article is not about voivodeship dolnośląskie where the towns west of nysa Łużycka could be excluded, but its also not about lower silesia in the borders prior to 1815 its about lower silesiaJadran91 (talk) 20:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• Did you have proof of this? I´m sure not and your POV is subjective original research.--Yopie (talk) 17:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

that those cities were part of lower silesia from 1815 on doesn't have do be proven since it's already in the article as a fact, so someone else must already have proven it. again, this article is not about lower silesia prior to 1815 Jadran91 (talk) 17:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• Read WP:RS and WP:OR first. CoA of region isn't proof and because in CoA is Bohemian lion, I can assume with your logic, that region is in Bohemia.Czech republic have in CoA Silesian eagle and isn't in Silesia or whole Silesia isn't in CR. BTW you are in edit war and next time you will be reported.--Yopie (talk) 10:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Lower Silesia/Lusatia

The question that is asked here concernes logical thinking. We all agree that the cities of Gorlitz&Zgorzelec are part of a historical region of Lusatia and precisely Upper Lusatia.

We all must agree that historical regions have some borders and when one historical region ends another one begins.

As the laws of logic say when a is a it cannot be b in the same time. The question is than is it possible for a town to lie both in two historical regions? Can both: Gorlitz&Zgorzelec be in Upper Lusatia and in Lower Silesia in the same time? It could be so only if Upper Lusatia would be a subregion of Lower Silesia but we all know that historical region of Lusatia was never part of a historical region of Silesia and historical region of Silesia was never part of a historical region of Lusatia. They were for some part of the history under the same rule but that connects them in a same way as Tuscany is connected with Liguria.

We need to decide something. If we agree that Gorlitz&Zgorzelec lie in Lower Silesia than they can't lie in Upper Lusatia in the same time, can they? If we decide opposite the conclusion also must be opposite. That is becouse towns can lie only in one historical region in the same time. 213.238.108.89 (talk) 17:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

why the towns Görlitz, Zgorzelec and Hoyerswerda should be included in the city list

one calls places like Görlitz a melting pot of cultures and neither one can be ignored

A

the region west of lusatian neisse belongs to lower silesia since

1. it belonged to it administratively since 1815

2. it belongs to it linguistically since the silesian accent still is spoken

3. it belongs to it culturally which can be proven by the official page of kreis görlitz

4. the lower silesian coat of arms is integral part of the coat of arms of kreis görlitz, and this not, as the bohemian lion, for historical reasons

on the official website of kreis görlitz it says:

der Niederschlesische Adler verkörpert die kulturelle Identifikation eines Teils der Landkreiseinwohner mit Schlesien

the lower silesian eagle embodies the cultural identification of a part of the inhabitants of the county with silesia

http://www.kreis-goerlitz.de/city_info/webaccessibility/index.cfm?waid=126&item_id=840394&old_item_id=0&oldrecord=48716&oldmodul=5&olddesign=0

so we have these three criteria

culturally, linguistically and administratively

what else does one need to count a region as part of a region

B

here is the constitution of the free state of saxonia:

http://www.landtag.sachsen.de/de/landtag/grundlagen/86.aspx

in the preamble it says:

Anknüpfend an die Geschichte der Mark Meißen, des sächsischen Staates und des niederschlesischen Gebietes........hat sich das Volk im Freistaat Sachsen ............ diese Verfassung gegeben

following the history of the mark meißen, the saxonian state, and the lower silesian area ..... the people in the free state of saxonia ....... has given itself this constitution

it says: lower silesian area. neither does it say: the parts that belonged to the province of lower silesia, nor does it say anything of lusatia.. it says lower silesian area

in article 2 number 4 it says

Im Siedlungsgebiet der Sorben können neben den Landesfarben und dem Landeswappen Farben und Wappen der Sorben, im schlesischen Teil des Landes die Farben und das Wappen Niederschlesiens, gleichberechtigt geführt werden.

in the settlement area of the sorbs, beside the land colours and the land coat of arms, the colours and coat of arms of the sorbs, in the silesian part of the land the colours and the coat of arms of lower silesia can be used equally

here it says silesian part of the land.. again, neither the province nor lustia is mentioned

see also: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagge_Niederschlesiens

if the parts west of lusatian neisse just would have been part of the province of lower silesia and not of lower silesia, then these parts wouldnt be called silesian in the saxon constitution

C

it exists the case that some regions are part of two historical regions like for example

Angeln which is part of Southern Schleswig which is part of Jutland

you can find an article about Franconia, and one about Bavaria, and this of course includes Franconia

Franconia roughly became part of Bavaria when parts of lusatia became silesian

in this case, franconia is like lusatia, and bavaria is like silesia

the page Bavaria leads to the page free state of Bavaria, Freistaat Bayern

the page lower silesia does not lead to województwo dolnośląskie since unlike bavaria, silesia is no political entity today

In the page Altbayern, what describes Bayern prior to the belonging of franconia to bavaria it says:

Altbayern (also written Altbaiern, English meaning: Old Bavaria) is a term used to describe the three oldest parts of the Free State of Bavaria, which were earlier known as Kurbayern

According to this, an article about lower silesia in the borders prior to 1815 would have to be created and then the parts of lusatia could be left out

D

this article just would be incomplete without görlitz

in görlitz can be found the silesian museum görlitz

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlesisches_Museum_(G%C3%B6rlitz)

the traditional hotel silesia

http://www.hotel-silesia.net/

the bank sparkasse upper lusatia lower silesia

https://banking.sparkasse-oberlausitz-niederschlesien.de/cgi/anfang.cgi

before the local government reform, parts of kreis görlitz were called lower silesian upper lusatia kreis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederschlesischer_Oberlausitzkreis

it exists the football team lower silesian football team yellow white görlitz

http://www.nfvgw09.de/spielbetrieb.asp?iid=70&mid=37

and other things that contain lower silesian, like Niederschlesischer Kreisfachverband Fussball

http://www.nkvfwn.de/

even though the name lower silesian does not exist in administration anymore, a lot of things are called like that

and this is even more a proof that parts of lusatia not just have been part of the province of lower silesia, but still are silesianJadran91 (talk) 19:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I cannot agree that you gave any real argument here aside from your desire to include Zgorzelec in the historical region of Lower Silesia. You gave a link to Bavaria which tells not about a historical region but about a, and I quote, the largest federal state (Bundesland) of Germany. The article about Franconia tells about a historical region that lies in different Federal states of Germany but that does not change the fact that Franconia has its historical borders even though it is now divided between various administrative parts of Germany.

When it comes to the historical region of Jutland as the article says it forms a territory north of the Eider River. The boundries are settled here. The word Jutland in your link is used to cover, I quote, the mainland part of Denmark. and not the historical region of Jutland which is described above. This historical region has its boundries and subregions which are: North Jutland and South Jutland. South Jutland is known also as Schleswig. In the 13th century South Jutland became a duchy. The first duke was Canute Lavard (Knud Lavard). In the late 14th century it took the name of the Duchy of Schleswig. The duchy was named after the city of Schleswig (Slesvig).

Today all of North Jutland is part of Denmark and South Jutland is divided between Germany and Denmark. The German part togeather with the historical region of Holstein forms the Federal state of Germany (mark not a historical region) of Schleswig-Holstein. Those are cases of regions dividing into subregions but it is not the case of Lusatia and Silesia because historical region of Lusatia was never part of a historical region of Silesia and historical region of Silesia was never part of a historical region of Lusatia. They were for some part of the history under the same rule but they never formed one historical region as South Jutland and North Jutland. Jutland is on the same level as Silesia and Lusatia. South Jutland on the other hand on the same level as Upper Lusatia and Lower Silesia.

Ergo. Historical regions have their boundriers. They also have their subdivisions. A city cannot lie in two different historical regions in the same time. Angeln lies in South Jutland which is part of Jutland. Wrocław lies in Lower Silesia which is part of Silesia. Zgorzelec lies in Upper Lusatia which is part of Lusatia. The administrative divisions of the modern states are something compleatly different than historical regions. 77.253.71.61 (talk) 20:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

1. the link that i gave leads to the federal state, since the historical region of bavaria and the federal state agree with each other, since the borders remained the same, whereas lower silesia and województwo dolnośląskie dont

the history of the federal state and bavaria in general can be written in the same article, since it is the same geographical entity, and of silesia this cant be done

furthermore i also gave the link to altbayern, in which can be read that altbayern are the three oldest parts of bavaria

most of the rest of bavaria became bavarian in 1806, so thats almost the same year

if we would do the same with lower silesia, an article about lower silesia prior to 1806 would have to be created

2. may it be that franconia is divided between two federal states, but that does not change the fact that bavarian franconia is a historic region of bavaria, as bavarian swabia is too

as i said, franconia is like lusatia: franconia is divided between the fed states of bavaria and baden württemberg, and lusatia between fed states of saxony, brandenburg and between poland

bavaria, however, is like silesia.. it's impossible to write a historical article about bavaria without mentioning the capital of franconia, nuremberg.. but it's also not possible to write a historical article about silesia without mentioning görlitz

all you said is that franconia is divided between several fed states like is lusatia

who said that this is not the fact

3. in the text about jutland it even says that north of the eider, but south of the border, clauses of the jutlandic code apply hence it must be part of jutland

but these regions are also in south schleswig

and schleswig is one of the historical regions of fed state schleswig holstein

see the section historic regions in the jutland article

of the six regions there are two in germany southern schleswig and holstein

and this article is about the historic region jutland

it is divided into danish part and german part

jutland itself is a historic region, because otherwise there would not be an article about the jutland peninsula... and the article itself states six historic regions within this historic region

thus, for example the town of glücksburg is in the historic region of jutland, south schleswig, and angeln for the physio geographic article see: jutland peninsula

furthermore you can see in this article even Lübeck and Kiel are mentioned whose inhabitants probably dont identify as jutlanders, but anyway it is in the article, since otherwise, it would be incomplete.. and the inhabitants of görlitz feel much more silesian than the lübeckers feel jutlandic... and a lower silesian article without görlitz is incomplete

who decides when something is to be called historic and when not

silesia also must have begun somewhere, and at the beginning it must ahve been smaller than what it is today

there are always regions which belong to a historic region longer than other parts

i explained above that the former saxon parts of lusatia slowly transformed into parts of silesia

it cant be transformed more than the culture and the language

i do not think that there is any region in which the culture of a historic region is and the language, but which is not mentioned in the article of that historic regionJadran91 (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)