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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 69.169.163.44 (talk) at 03:56, 4 October 2009 (→‎Rewrite?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

New Sections: Intend to add information about the NSBM controversy among BM listeners in "NSBM in the Broader Black Metal Scene." In "National Socialism in Early Black Metal" will probably cite Burzum's "My Journey to the Stars", Darkthrone's "Jewish Behavior" and "Aryan Black Metal" stuff, etc. Suggest that if someone actually comes along and wants to add something that they do something along those lines. --68.6.244.91 06:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC) --[reply]

About my edit: Eliminated the bit about about NSBM bands lacking an understanding as to the true meaning of "Aryan" (Criticism of Nazi useage of the term belongs in the entry about Aryans itself) Also eliminated "Some believe that Christianity originated as a Jewish conspiracy to control Aryans to push their Zionist agenda forward." I think it should stay out unless someone can actually produce a source. I'm not an expert on NSBM but I've yet to hear the anti-christian thing put this way. Few more general attempts at improvement. --68.6.244.91 05:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually straight out of Nazi rhetoric. Most of them hated Christianity and endured it for practical reasons. Nietzsche also circumspectly refers to it as a Judean religion. www.anus.com 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-- Burzum's Black Metal albums aren't NSBM, altough his latter works (mostly electronic) could be called NS music. They are, however, not BM and thus Burzum can't be called NSBM music.

- Burzum's Black Metal albums aren't NSBM indeed. As i said beneath, Varg claimed to not even be socialist on a national level, so he cannot be linked to NSBM. I believe, however, in the period he called himself a "nazi" (which he later claimed was a politcally incorect term to use for his ideas). His "Ambient" keyboard albums are more related to his "heathen", or rather, Odalistic ideas. They are not National Socialistic! refernce: A Burzum Story: "The Nazi Ghost" Darksteel 14:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I very much disagree. On the first album, 'Burzum' (self-titled), the lyrics "War between the races" can be found on the song 'My Journey to the stars'. Simply because the music isn't filled lyrically with mindless slogans, doesn't mean such music wasn't made to represent a certain ideology. Burzum is probably the founder of the NSBM genre. Nagelfar 04:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You need to give a better example than that one. The phrase appears at the end of the song, and the other lyrics have no such content. My interpretation is more of a general chaotic misanthropic feeling there at the end. It says: "Darkness, Hate and Winter Rules the Earth when I Return, War Between Races, A Goal Is Reached, Chaos, Hate". Lots of hate, but quite unfocused ;) --Unsound 17:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- Burzum may very well have inspired the NSBM genre, but that will not say it's one of the founders. Varg has said in his article on A Burzum story: "The Nazi Ghost": (reference):

I have also experienced that most of the people supporting me or what I stand for are so-called "nazis" - while almost everybody else has just condemned me and then boycotted me and everything I have done. What makes me different from the "nazis" are basically three things; unlike them I am not socialistic (not even on a national level), I am not materialistic and I believe in (the ancient Scandinavian!) democracy.

As you can see, he is not a socialist (and not even in a national way), and thus not a nazi. I will not say he doesn't interpretent Odalism in a racist way. He doesn't want to mix with other "colored" people. He says he wants to stick to his culture etc. It is not because he makes a song called "War between the Races" that he has to be a nazi. Some people need to draw a line between racism and Nazism. Also the reason why he made his BM is to boycot the Death metal scene. reference: A Burzum Story: "The Nazi Ghost" Darksteel 14:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found page www.nbsm.org where burzum is listed as one of bands. 04:59, 08 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.124.69.174 (talk)

The fragment "war between the races" is most definitely inspired by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. In case you didn't know, his stories are usually based on fantasy worlds with different races, including humans, elves, orcs etc. Therefore, I am convinced that he is alluding to these races, and not the ones of todays humans. Vikernes has stated in interviews that he was inspired by such works as the ones of Tolkien in the beginning of Burzums creation.

Let's not forget that Burzum's first works were produced al Deathlike Silence Prod., Euronymous' label. Euronymous was member in the most radical communist party in Norway, so Varg's first albums can't be labeled as NS.

I agree, and besides, the NSBM comminity may create music like Black Metal, the scene is totally different and these differences need to shown, and thus, the articles NSBM and Black Metal should be seperated. 80.57.77.199 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Euronymous also practiced in a room decked out in both Communist and Nazi flags. www.anus.com 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Euronymous maybe a WWII hobbyist, semi-historian or at least an interested of it or he might be a National-Bolshevik. 80.57.77.199 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Though NSBM is different from the Black metal scene, it is still a subgenre right? Shouldn't the template be Black Metal instead of just Metal?

how can a nationa socialist be anti christianity? i mean, the church may not be the best thing of he world but it's a important weapon to destroy jews.

I'm glad I can find intelligent thoughts on this page... marnues 06:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't Metal music be considered degenerate art by Nazis? It is rather atonal and would be traced back to what Hitler would regard as a negroid form of music. Therefore I can't believe that these people are legitimate National Socialists. Racists, perhaps and perhaps they admire Hitler, but they don't seem to have Nazi art values.

If you want to get down to it, NSs are not nazis. They are tied to NS of 30's and 40's Germany through more general philosophy than any incredible love of the word of Hitler. Besides, there still plenty of people who trace the roots of rock purely to European folk and forget about the whole blues thing. Plus metal itself is a predominantly white form of music. marnues 01:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who traces rock to European folk music? Tuf-Kat 02:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Anymore, mostly people who can't stand to think the music they love has any ties to African culture. Though it would be difficult to say European music isn't an influence. marnues 04:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

??NSBM??

unusual to find this here, because NSBM isnt even an official black metal subgenre. whether you like what i am about to say or not, i suggest this page to be deleted, because it is just a propaganda name used long ago during the black metal hype, as the media wanted everyone to be scared of black metal, saying it not only promotes satanism (which it does) and nazism (which doesnt). true, there are nazi bands out there, but they are not black metal, and do not play black metal music, whether it would be the lyrical or the musical style. it should be deleted because it isnt an offical genre, and pretty much every band in this nsbm list has no popularity, whether it'd be mainstream or in the metal underground. it is only known of through the nazi music underground. in my opinion, if this page wont be deleted, it should be put in a seperate page only, which specifies on nazi music in general, because this is not black metal. take this seriously please, as im not just some guy who doesnt like nsbm, im coming from a neutral perspective. Okram 09 (talk) 08:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could always try and get it deleted I suppose, but given the huge amount of coverage the subgenre has received it would almost certainly get speedily kept. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BDSM?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.28.73 (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 00:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Famous Bands

If a band isn't famous enough to have a wikipedia entry, it isn't famous enough to be on this list. Other more popular genres might not have this distinction, but here it works wonderfully. marnues 08:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why? People obviously look up the list to see if a band is NSBM or similar. Darksteel 15:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a directory in that sense, however. - Tiswas(t) 14:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Band list

This is starting to turn into a list. If the list is important, consider making a wikipedia list, with a link from this article to that list. Also, the current list should be shortened to the most notable bands. The first band to be in this genre would be a smart choice, and the ones with the most success. I am going to tag this article for clean up, also, because of the list.-- ¢² Connor K.   13:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed Satanic Warmaster and Ad Hominem from the list, neither of these bands support NS ideologies although both band are extremely racist and do have lyrical themes that would lead them to be placed in the NSBM scene. Satanic Warmaster stated in a 2003 interview with Terrorizer that they were not NS and that it was a "common misconception" that they were. Ad Hominem states on their official Myspace: "DO NOT WRITE IF : You are not of european descent / You are into any kind of positive religion or politics / You are into "14 words" crap, loving life and believing in white man's rebirth / You are a degenerated scumbag metalhead just finding AH cool (for sure no one will recognize himself here!!)". As a side note I hope the irony of Ad Hominem's name becomes apparent when this is taken into account.


- while an openly racist act, Arghoslent play nothing like black metal, and so cannot be called NSBM. They should not be on an nsbm list


- Astrofaes seem not to be NSBM, but only use Slavonic nationalist poetry as a base for their lyrics. They should be removed from the list.

- I deleted the bands that are not NSBM or that not have a source to prove it. 88.70.175.121 00:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strange sentence

"...NSBM might sound not much different from other metal sub-genres".

I don't understand this sentence fully. Is it meant to say "other BLACK metal sub-genres"? Surely even the avarage metal listener would be able to hear quiet a huge difference between NSBM and say Sepultura, Alice Cooper, Metallica or even "industrial" metal like Nine Inch Nails....? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.100.14.48 (talk) 12:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Satanic Warmaster is not NSBM

I disagree with the person who tagged Satanic Warmaster as a NSBM band when there lyrics focus on Facist Occultism and not Nazi ideologies. There are main differances between facism and nazism. Explore the topics more clearer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ilirik666 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Sort of OT, but still...

Not that it matters for purposes of this article, but Heydrich was not "head of the gestapo". Well, he was, kind of, but that is like saying the President of the US is the top postal official. Technically it is true (in the sense the President of the US can fire the Postmaster General, and Heydrich could fire the Head of the Geheimestaatspolizei), but it kind of minimizes the person's title. Heydrich was head of the RSHA (Reichsicherheithauptamt, Head Office of Reich Security) which contained the Geheimestaatspolizei("Gestapo"), Sicherheitdeinst (Heydrich's previous command before the RSHA was formed), and Kriminalpolizei (Kripo).

In fact, to be technically exact, Müller was the head of the Gestapo, and Heydrich was his boss. So, I know it is way off topic, but I am going to make a slight alteration and change Heydrich from head of the Gestapo to head of the RSHA within the SS, which is what he really was. (After he was the head of the SD within the SS.)

Sorry, forgot to tack some tildes onto my last comment, so here goes: 76.100.205.82 02:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply] 

-You can find a lot of NSBM bands in Last.fm: THE URL is: http://www.lastfm.es/group/National+Socialist+Black+Metal/connections  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.129.68 (talk) 06:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-nazi?

I think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.211.47 (talk) 07:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slight edit

Apologies for the slight edit with rationale. I removed the sentence stating that NSBM is regarded as an ideology not a subgenre, as it is impossible to play black metal in a National Socialist way. The rationale was two-fold: firstly, it's an unsourced and potentially POV statement; secondly, there is considerable confusion as to the distinction between ideology and subgenre... for example, people seem to get upset by including "unblack" metal bands on the List of black metal bands, despite the fact that the difference in styles is purely ideological. To maintain consistency we should adopt a consensus opinion on matters like this. My tuppence is that ideology / lyrical content is actually a fairly important part of what makes a genre (or subgenre) a genre (or subgenre). Anyway, I'll leave it for now, but regardless of consensus it needs a decent source, as I reckon it's a pretty contentious (maybe even OR) statement to make. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

November 2008

November 22 2008 AYPS: Extensively rewrote entry. Removed anti-NSBM sentiment. Attempted to clarify what NSBM is, along with some examples. Attempted to clarify confusion surrounding bands that are wrongly perceived as being NSBM. One can be a White Supremacist and not a National Socialist. One can flaunt National Socialist symbols and not support an ounce of White Supremacy. Examples, Graveland, Hate Forest, Darkthrone, Marduk. Burzum is problematic as there are too many conflicting statements, most of which have been made by Varg Vikernes himself. Removed section relating to NSBM and the broader Black Metal scene. One reference to Gardell's Gods of the Blood does not indicate whether NSBM is or is not a minority in the scene. Removed section relating to NSBM and the broader White Power movement. The late William Pierce of the National Alliance does not constitute the views of an entire movement. Ammended links. The Pagan Front is no longer "The Hammer of National Socialist Black Metal", it is currently "Heathen Metal Militia". You will note that Graveland was not listed on that site until after this change. NSBM.org is outdated, not being updated since 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.165.187 (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's little point rewriting an article in its entirety if you're not going to use even a single source, so please refrain from adding POV and/or OR information. A couple of other (more minor) points... genres are not capitalised, so it is "black metal" and not "Black Metal", and there is no reason whatsoever to simply add lists of albums by non-notable bands (see WP:MUSIC) that you happen to like and/or think are important... having said all that, the article as it stands still needs more references, but the version I've reverted to is still far superior. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely with Blackmetalbaz. ~Asarlaí 20:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by the previous entry on the article, you are hardly any authority on the subject. Learn to accept that which is superior to you, and the world will become a much better place.
Please read WP:CIVIL. And please sign your posts with four tildes, just so we can keep track of just who's being rude :) Either way, if you disagree with another editor's work, then feel free to contribute your superior authority, using reliable sources to back up your claims. Oh, and one last thing... it helps to keep talk pages understandable if you could add comments in the appropriate place; this generally means directly below the person you're addressing, not at the top of a page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 2009

We appear to have another rash of OR editing on this page. I appreciate that the whole article is a horrible mess anyway, but I am unconvinced that unsourced statements along the lines of "X is generally seen as Y within the scene" (even if this is true) are helpful to the article. This is a general plea to people to not add material to this, or any other article, without sources. This comment brought to you by no sleep and frustration at anonymous editors misunderstanding the difference between truth and verifiability. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Editing and improving the article

I have changed the article a bit, talked to Blackmetalbaz (see their user talk page) and planned to include information from the German article, which is longer and sourced. All others be informed that I use an access with a static IP adress and can be reached via its user talk page without any problems, but am not the only one to use it. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, I'll see if I can help out a bit. Great care must be taken when talking about Christianity in Nazi Germany, as relations were largely strategic and Hitler was opposed to conventional Christianity. Dark Prime (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I know we must take care, but we should not forget that there were Protestant christians like those mentioned who supported Hitler, and Christian streams in National Socialism (see Positive Christianity) as well as pagan and occult tendencies, like Rosenberg, Himmler and the Thule Society. If you could also reference the opposition of the artists you mentioned, you would improve the article a lot. I remember an interview with Emperor Magus Caligula stating he was against Nazism but found positive aspects in it (with no further details), which can either mean he spoke thoughtlessly or worse; unfortunately, I might look for that one when I find the time to do so. And Erik Danielsson of Watain is a sensitive case, too, as he mentioned Hitler as a great visionary (though this was rather a praise of destruction than an approval of Nazism) and because of the shit that happened in Germany in 2006 (see Watain article). --132.187.3.26 (talk) 08:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add the Erik and Caligula references now while I have the time. I'll find the King and Infernus ones later. Dark Prime (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, who was the Catholic bishop that endorsed and praised the Nazi concentration camps in the 1930s upon inspection? I can't remember the name (Bruning or someone, wanted to include him in the article). Dark Prime (talk) 11:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know there was a Brüning, but I am not sure if it was him. Including him would be a good idea, do it when you remember. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Darkthrone case does not fit in at the moment. If somebody wants to put it back after I have removed it, please put it into the right context. For Varg Vikernes being the main man to have brought National Socialist beliefs into the black metal scene, Blackmetalbaz wants references. I can check the German book Unheilige Allianzen, but I have no English issue of Lords of Chaos, so if someone can look it up and give a further reference, it would be great. It is either in the Count Quisling chapter or the last one. And maybe check the Möbus interview for the sentence about Christianity enslaving the Aryans according to NSBM ideology. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 10:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest removing these as well. They are of no use as links, but maybe can be used as sources, if someone dares to read them in order to improve the article. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now finished translating and will provide the aforementioned Unheilige Allianzen reference soon. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 11:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks excellent, much better than any of the previous versions. I remembered the bishop in question was Berning of Osnabruck, but I haven't found any sources on the internet that explicitly state he endorsed the concentration camps. Might check around papers and books later. Dark Prime (talk) 13:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the page looks vastly better than previous versions! One minor word of warning... don't get too bogged down in connections between Christianity and Nazism; that's very relevant to pages on that topic, but doesn't need to be covered in detail here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it will still be okay if he adds that one example.
I will remove Erik Danielsson from the list, as I find his words rather dubious, considering his answer to the question what happened in Bad Berka (and, of course, what actually happened).
I haven’t watched the Dark Funeral interview on YouTube; does it back up Ahriman’s rejection of NSBM artists?
The Möbus interview in Lords of Chaos doesn’t explicitly back up the thought of Christianity as a Jewish instrument to enslave the Aryans, though Möbus calls it a non-semite version of Judaism, and sees the Jews as the Aryans’ antagonists. I will replace the reference, revert that if you disagree.
Someone will have to help me with the German quotes. I have no idea how the citation template for original quotes and their translation works. The German Wikipedia has such a template, here’s an example (see source code): de:Reign in Blood#Neues Label. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 09:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can't remember if Ahriman himself talks about the subject in that video on youtube, although on the Black Metal: A Documentary recording (which seems to use these clips etc.) he talks about race being a pointless subject in black metal etc. Caligula goes into some depth about it in the youtube clip referenced - he said to some neo-Nazis 'put your hand down I don't believe in your fucking shit', and that when he talked about his "master race" it was a Satanist one, regardless of whether they were black, white, yellow etc. Dark Prime (talk) 09:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know War from Sweden? This band (featuring, amongst others, former Dark Funeral member Blackmoon) said something similar about a Satanic master race, according to this review. One of the other members (can’t find the interview at the moment) said he doesn’t know what IT’s intentions were when writing the lyrics, but that he has no racist tendencies (see lyrics for “I Am Elite”). Ahriman contributed to a band called Wolfen Society, which is inspired by a secret society I never heard of, which Vincent Crowley of Acheron called an “Occultic Fascist movement” in this interview, whereas that one and the band site talk about Satanism and hatred for mankind as a whole. I also found the interview with Emperor Magus Caligula I had mentioned: [1]. He says: “Ich finde es auch interessant darüber zu lesen und dergleichen, doch ich symphathisiere sicherlich nicht mit der damaligen Einstellung, auch wenn etwas davon gar nicht so verkehrt war.” And: “Ich will nicht behaupten dass die KZ's nicht schlimm waren, aber ich will auch nicht sagen dass sie so verdammt schlimm waren.” Which means: “I find it interesting to read about it and so on, but I surely don’t sympathise with the attitude, though some of it wasn’t that wrong” and “I don’t pretend the concentration camps weren’t bad, but I don’t want to say they were that bad either.” --132.187.3.26 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On War: I've known about them for sometime, and I've been quite suspicious about Blackmoon for that matter. So far I haven't seen any sources where he talks about his stances in regards to the "I am Elite" song.
On Wolfen Society: I know a bit about Vincent Crowley, but not that much, so I'm not sure what he means. From what I know of Wolfen Society, it's meant to be oriented around misanthropy (something often cited as a reason for opposing NSBM), and Lord Ahriman claims to be a serious misanthrope himself.
On Caligula's symapthy for aspects of Nazi ideology and concentration camps: I wouldn't be surprised if he was sympathetic to the repressive nature of these things in general, after he said he was "somewhat impressed" by Rodrigo Orias. I suppose he may well harbour an attitude like that of people such as Shyaithan of Impiety, who wrote about Auschwitz and Mengele in the song "Carbonised". Dark Prime (talk) 13:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I do recall Vincent Crowley being featured on Black Metal: A Documentary. I'll rewatch the bit about NSBM later to see if he had anything to say. Dark Prime (talk) 10:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he did. I finally saw it, and he says he has no problem with it if it is done intelligently, whatever that means in his eyes. I also found the Blackmoon interview I mentioned: that one. I will remove Danielsson again and Blomberg too, as he stated he thinks Black Metal is for whites again in 2007 (as he did in 1994 and 1995 in Ablaze magazine and while interviewed by Moynihan or Søderlind). The interview referenced only says he does not care about the fans, which is because he is in it for the money, which he admitted, concerning Mayhem at least. So it is no proof at all. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where did Hellhammer say that in 2007? Dark Prime (talk) 15:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, Moynihan/Søderlind/Lords of Chaos are NOT very reliable sources (having been criticised by various metal muscians etc.). Dark Prime (talk) 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He said that here, and I doubt it was satirical.
I know LOC is not necessarily reliable, but I think we can use the exclusive interviews, and if there were problems concerning those with Blomberg, he would probably have criticised that when talking about Moynihan, which he did in that one. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 12:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The first link was where I first read about Hellhammer's statements, and I found this in January - March 2006. This is older than 2007. Dark Prime (talk) 13:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But nevertheless, it is newer than the half-hearted and unsincere statement I had removed for the reasons mentioned above. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

There is a lot of vandalism on the page as of 10/3/09. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.34.209 (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite?

This article uses some lingo and writing clearly influenced by its own audience ("rapists", "pornographers" when referring to opponents). A more encyclopediac rewrite might be helpful.

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