Talk:Left-wing nationalism

This article was nominated for deletion on 10 April 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Merge with Nationalism

Overlap – There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article meets notability standards, and is not a "dictionary entry." This is a distinct topic, with a great ddeal of material which has been in it. Oppose merge. Collect (talk) 16:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also oppose all the removal of prior discussion from this page as violative of WP protocol. Peole should be albe to read the prior posts here. The prior proposal was only removed all of one month ago. If there was no support for this merge a month ago, it is unlikely that it has support now. Collect (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There has never been a proposal to merge with Nationalism. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The article on nationalism isn't much better and is 31K, which is large enough to support sub-topics. Topics of this sort seem likely to sprawl and ramble and so it seems sensible to prefer a tighter focus. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not even remotely a dictionary entry, but clearly an article about a topic. There's a lot more to be said, but it's a good start. DGG (talk) 02:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This topic is notable, and Nationalism is big enough and would be overly large if the material here were to be merged back in. Guidelines are that when the parent article gets too big, if the issue is notable, a sub-article should be spun out, with a short summary in the parent. Both articles badly need to be cleaned up, but that's not a reason to merge. LK (talk) 03:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have replied on your talk page. The Four Deuces (talk) 03:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge While this topic is indeed notable, their are no links to it from Nationalism. Much of the size of the article is reduced when one takes out the introduction (which is largely repetitive of what is in nationalism), and the list of organizations which can be merged with List of nationalist conflicts and organizations. In addition, left wing nationalism is a classification of nationalism, and the nationalism page already includes several other classifications, so why should this be any different? ClockSpire (talk) 16:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There is no generally accepted concept of left-wing nationalism. It is not a defined ideology and there is no academic literature about it. Certainly the term has been used but not in a consistent or agreed manner. Basically this article is a list of political movements or parties that are both left-wing and nationalist. Unfortunately there is no universal agreement of the meanings of those terms either. Therefore this entire article violates "no original research" (WP:NOR) and "no synthesis" (WP:SYN). The Four Deuces (talk) 16:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge. Four Deuces, please don't go back over the deletion discussion. Left-wing nationalism is also called "left nationalism", and it is often discussed in scholarly sources, e.g. [1][2][3] On a topic when it is easy to rattle off examples such as the Irish Republicanism, the Basque nationalists, Civil War Catalonia, Milosevic's regime, the SNP, Plaid, you need a good reason to get rid of it. Left nationalism is distinct from right-wing nationalism, and deserves separate treatment. Fences&Windows 21:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot find any definition of left-wing nationalism in any of these sources, nor is the term used consistently. If you want to keep this as a separate article it would be helpful if you added a definition to the lead. The Four Deuces (talk) 21:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral I'm not sure what to say about this one. I was initially opposed to merging or deleting the article because there are a few sources that acknowledge a different strand of nationalism with leftist attitudes, but preserving the article as it is now would imply that right-wing nationalism is its opposite pole, and I have yet to come upon an exact definition of what that is (equating general nationalism with right-wing nationalism, as our current situation implies, is nonsensical). So I respectfully bow down to neutrality on this one. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge. I oppose the merge, however I think the main Nationalism article should include something about Left-wing nationalism(s) under the "Types of nationalism" section. Same for the Types of nationalism article. -- Mathieugp (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Oppose Merge*

I oppose the merge but I also think that it is important to recognise that both types are nationalism. It would be lying to say that they are the same or that they are completly diffrent. While Wikipedia is not a dictionary it is important to relise that people will want to research things separetly. If you are doing something on right-wing nationalism then you don't want to read through alot of stuff on left wing nationalism and vise verser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golden Bookworm (talk • contribs) 00:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge. I oppose the merge, and I plan to add something about Left-wing nationalism under the "Types of nationalism" section of the Nationalism article. Benny K (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone please

write a paragraph about the diferences of Left-wing nationalism and National Sociolism (Naziism) cause a lot of peple don't see it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 (talk) 16:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the Bellamy cousins to the North America section of Left-wing Nationalism

The current North American section is only representing Canada, and I believe that there were active left-wing nationalists in the US. The cousins Francis and Edward Bellamy are prime examples. Francis wrote the Pledge of Allegiance and Edward started a "Nationalist" movement in the late 1800s. Below I list sources and block-quotes that back up these assertions:

Francis Bellamy [4]

Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Baptist minister and Christian Socialist[1] who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892.

Edward Bellamy [5]

Edward Bellamy was born March 26, 1850 in Chicoppee Falls, Massachusetts. Son and grandson of Baptist ministers, Bellamy studied law and worked briefly in the newspaper industry in New York and in Springfield, Massachusetts. Although he published four novels and several essays in his lifetime, he is remembered most for his 1888 work Looking Backward, 2000-1887 and it was this novel which influenced the formation of the Nationalist political movement and several accompanying utopian living experiments during the 1890's. The novel became so popular that by 1900 only Uncle Tom's Cabin had sold more copies.
Looking Backward, certainly considered by many as within the genre of utopian fiction, anticipates a future America (the year 2000) of nationalized industry, equal distribution of wealth and the destruction of class divisions--this vision counters the problems Bellamy saw with his contemporary society. In this utopian world, loyalty to the solidarity of the state holds the society together. Bellamy called this philosophy Nationalism. Although his fictional story in Looking Backward is unique, Bellamy owes much of the philosophy behind his vision to an earlier social reformer and author, Laurence Gronlund, who published his treatise The Cooperative Commonwealth: An Exposition of Modern Socialism in 1884. Bellamy's novel gained so much attention after it was published, Gronlund stopped the distribution of his work and endorsed Bellamy's vision as the means to a new socialist society. The combined vision of Gronlund, Bellamy and the soon to be formed Nationalist movement helped to spark several utopian living experiments during the decade.
By late 1888, the first of the Bellamy Nationalist Clubs was formed and the movement soon spread across the country attracting such notable personalities as authors William Dean Howells and Edward Everett Hale. The main purpose of the clubs was to create and promote the practical realization of Bellamy's utopian vision. Members became involved with other reform political groups and the Nationalists were represented at the 1891 Populist Party convention. Eugene Debs, the up and coming Socialist leader, also advocated some of Bellamy's programs. However, the Nationalist movement stressed an evolutionary not revolutionary approach to social change. A small group of educated leaders, not masses of laborers or workers, would usher in the new society. This attitude alienated some of the more radical Socialist and Populist supporters of Nationalism. Despite temporary solidarity with these groups, the Nationalist movement lost popularity and was essentially dead by 1894.

So if nothing else, I nominate that the Bellamy cousins be added to this article.

DaveRazz (talk) 00:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]