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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Isprawl (talk | contribs) at 22:32, 25 December 2009 (→This article is biased). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pertinence of terms, de facto and de jure

The following was removed:

A sanctuary city is a United States city that follows certain practices that protect illegal immigrants. These practices can be explicit, or de jure, or they can be implicit, or de facto. The city is a sanctuary for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation; in short, such a city does not enforce immigration law.

This is appropriate text. It addresses in formal language the practices that involve government officials' "looking the other way" (de facto) about illegal immigration, and formal declarations of non-cooperation with federal law (de jure). Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't removed, it was made non-US-specific, per the {{global}} template that editor also added.--SarekOfVulcan 17:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the above text was removed. Just compare the history. Additionally, this is a US-specific term. Unless someone can otherwise document, the United States is the only nation-state that has a significant number of municipalities that make specific ordinances in resistance to national immigration policy. Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This however was intentional as saying de jure and de facto is inappropriate. It's not a real sanctuary city if it is not written down. Virtually every U.S. city is a de facto sanctuary city under that definition. Perspicacite 17:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This section,

"Critics have argued that a large proportion of violent crimes in some sanctuary cities result from this policy. 95% of outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants (as half of the outstanding arrest warrants in Los Angeles are for Mexican nationals who have fled the country, and hence cannot be arrested here).[4] (These data originate from a Center for Immigration Studies report which relied on data from a confidential California Department of Justice study.[5]) Two-thirds of felony warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants. Critics additionally argue that the policy provides a refuge for international gangs such as the MS-13 gang.[6]"

seems completely made up. The sources cited do not substatiate these absurd claims. Furthermore, what difference does it make if in one city a very high percentage of feloy warrants are for illegal immigrants? It would only matter if that was true in every "sactuary city." Lastly, what types of felony warrants were being issued? Were the warrants issued for illegal immigration or for nother crimes? This is an important question because the argument seems to be that illegal immigrants are committing a lot of crimes beyond just being in the country illegally. But if most of those warrants are just for being in the country illegally then illegal immigration does not appear nearly so damaging to the social fabric as it does if illegal immigrants are responsible for most of the crimes committed in cities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.124.92.254 (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also point out that the assertion is spurious because warrants become outstanding if the authorities chase their suspects out of the country, and hence out of reach. The entire section is overly and overtly alarmist. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following was removed to due to misrepresentation of cited material and for lack of citation to support included statistics: , citing one study showing that nearly half of outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants.[1] Two-thirds of felony warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants.[citation needed] 76.202.75.206 17:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of substantive edits regarding murders of police and young adults

An editor had removed a reference that linked to an article regarding the recent execution-style murder of three young women in Newark: Illegal Immigration an Issue in Newark Murders -- 08/13/2007. Of course, citizens commit murders. The concern is that the prime suspect had a long felony rap sheet, and he was an illegal alien. Community members and elected officials, e.g., Councilman Ron Rice, have expressed concern that if there were coordination between local law enforcement and federal authorities, this crime could have been prevented. Much of the activity of police is crime prevention, not merely pursuit of possible perpetrators of crimes. Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, If he had a long felony rap sheet, it's irrelevant whether he was an illegal immigrant or not. Just because they can't ask on arrest doesn't mean they can't ask on conviction, yes?--SarekOfVulcan 17:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of mention of murders of police

The following text was removed (-which also contained references to the murdered police and sheriffs, including among others: Ronald Johnson, Saul Gallego, David March):

Illegal aliens have been implicated in the killings of police and sheriffs during routine traffic stops. [2]

Again, it is true that citizens also murder police. The point is: these murders could have been avoided if the individuals in question were not in the United States, sheltered by sanctuary policies in so many cities. Dogru144 17:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mine wasn't. It wasn't relevant at that point in the article. There might be another spot it will fit, but I doubt it.--SarekOfVulcan 17:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see you're point. Of course if you increase population there are going to be more crimes. If we through all of the people out of the United States, there would be no crimes. Just because there's a random illegal immigrant out there who does a crime doesn't mean we should discriminate against them. Blacks, for one, commit more crimes than illegals, but I here no crimes for a genocide against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.251.36.143 (talk) 08:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Global template needed?

Is this term even used outside the United States? If not than I don't see how it could have a more international worldview. -LtNOWIS 20:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I came here to ask the same question. As no one has answered you in more than two months, and I can find no reference to the term being used anywhere but in the United States, I'm going to remove the tag. faithless (speak) 07:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neologism?

I heard that this term is a Neologism recently coined for this election. Does anyone know the origin of the term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.39.219 (talk) 04:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Working on it. I first got wind of it today; NPR used it somewhere around 3 times in as many minutes. I believe it was Mitt Romney using it. I would go poking around in transcripts of recent Republican stump speeches if I had time. I have a feeling that this is a new GOP dysphemism. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crime ?!

FOX News and some CNN critics have charged that these cities are dens of criminals and gangs. Recently, a woman was murdered by a illegal alien in one of these cities. Now the family wants to SUE (Can I say THAT here and still comply with being politically fucked-I mean politically correct?) the US govt, for willful and intentional malfeasance and derilection of duty to the US citizens to keep out terrorists and criminals. Can THAT be ststed in the article ? 65.163.112.104 (talk) 00:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They're saying that OTHER nations don't put up with illegal aliens and is why the US is thought of as a joke, because of Political Correctness. 65.163.112.104 (talk) 00:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence starters

In the section titled United States, there are at least 5 sentences which start with a phrase such as "Critics have argued", with a number of others starting with the names of specific critics or something like "They contend", where "they" means "critics". Yet, every attempt to insert a single sentence starting with "Proponents of such policies argue" gets reverted with a claim of POV pushing in the edit summary. Why is this? Is there some wikipedia rule about not starting a sentence with the letter "P". --Ramsey2006 11:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The overall content being changed is highly POV. Neutrality, not a 180 turn, is the goal. Perspicacite 15:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why does your interpretation of WP:NPOV apply to sentences that start with a "P", but not to sentences that start with a "C"? --Ramsey2006 16:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very clever, but not a particularly persuasive question. Perspicacite 02:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you just explain why you will not allow a single sentence describing the positions of proponents of the policies in question, while several paragraphs of statements about the positions of critics (such as WorldNetDaily) are necessary. How does this help the article maintain neutrality? --Ramsey2006 12:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ideally, all of these sentence starters should be reworked. State the facts without using weasel words. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

restore comment by anon editor

The following was the result of an anonymous editor editing a comment higher up on this talk page. It is unclear whether it was intended to be a talk page comment or an edit to the article (which the edit summary would seem to suggest), but I have reverted the talk page edit and am instead placing the edited comment as a (presumably) proposed alternative opening sentence here. --Ramsey2006 23:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A sanctuary city is a United States city that follows certain practices that protect its immigrant residents, regardless of their immigration status. These practices can be explicit, or de jure, or they can be implicit, or de facto. The city is a sanctuary for immigrants who seek to live without being discriminated against or targeted on account of their real or perceived immigration status (which all-to-often also involves issues of race and class). In short, such a city provides equal treatment and protection to all its residents, regardless of immigraiton status. Additionally, as a policy it seeks to affirmatively commit itself to protecting the human rights of all immigrants. 63.78.124.2 22:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New lead

I just removed the following text from the lead because of formatting issues, and because it made uncited assertions about the definition. Can it be rephrased so that it fits in the article?

The city is a sanctuary for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation. A sanctuary city is not a place for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation but is rather a city that simply dictates the role of the local governing body and its employees. The term sanctuary is somewhat of a misnomer as the policies do not interfere with the federal government’s ability to enforce immigration laws and protect immigrants from deportation. --SarekOfVulcan 18:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

The issue here is not semantics or minor details. The issue here is that the article itself must be about the nature and history of a political buzzword and not either a discussion of the policy it describes or a rant from either side. The article needs a new history section to explain the origin of the term. The article uses the buzzword as if it was a generally accepted academic term. The article clearly favors one side of the discussion over another, and cites unreliable and likely biased sources as it does so. I think we all need to calm down and find sources that describe the term and not the policy or arguments on either side. Encyclopedias are meant to inform, not convince. See WP:REDFLAG Fifth Rider (talk) 15:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed some of the wording but not saying that is all that needs to be done. It would be good to have an official federal government wording of this to help the article. The notion of sanctuary cities is definately a rallying point of the U.S. anti-illegal immigration movement but is still a notable enough topic for an article. MrMurph101 (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, just because you believe an article to be about a "buzzword" doesn't mean it is. The article's intent is to describe the subject, which is the cities in question, and on a controversial subject that means exactly that we describe "the policy or arguments on either side." I don't know when "academic terms" came into play but here is one source showing the term being used by both opponents and proponents of sanctuary city policy. [1] A section describing the origin of the term would be welcome though. --70.143.56.251 (talk) 19:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WTF

Criminal Law: U.S. states that harboring criminals is a criminal offense. Those harboring illegal aliens, which are criminals under US law (Don't like that hard cold fact, change the laws)are also criminals. Read a law book or two about

  • Criminal Solicitation
  • Conspiracy
  • Complicity in committing crimes by illegal aliens
  • Accessory before,during, after the fact
  • Treason
  • Harboring fugitives, multiple counts
  • Willful dereliction of Law Enforcement duties

This kind of criminal behavior perpetrated by illegal aliens and political allies is what is pissing decent, hard working people off. I've seen this on FOX News, and on the New World Order News Network, other networks. A guy in San Francisco was murdered, along with his family by a gangbanger who was also a illegal alien. What is left of his family may sue the city on those charges, related charges. Can someone keep a eye on this? IF they do sue and win, a lot of bigwigs will be going to Club FED and/or get financially ruined. This could also affect this article as well.65.173.104.138 (talk) 09:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Phoenix, Arizona is not one of these cities, since Joe Arpaio started throwing illegals in jail.65.173.104.138 (talk) 09:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to add a city to the Sanctuary City section

Madison Wisconsin needs to be added to the list of Sanctuary Cities.

Is this still correct? There was legislation that was voted on last year (March 2008) regarding funding for "sanctuary cities"... doesn't this mean that they must be legally defined somehow? Cfirst (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Out of Context

Listing specific cherry-picked anecdotes of horrific crimes is probably inappropriate anywhere in this article-- it is a case of the exception fitting the rule. There are certainly individual stories of the positive effects of Sanctuary cities.

The little mention of an MS-13 member certainly doesn't belong in a section about "Political Action". Each other paragraph talks about the actions of a politician or political group.

It is possible that the example is out of place in the article but it did draw a lot of media attention and was the focal point of discussion on the "Sanctuary" policy. I feel it merits inclusion. - Schrandit (talk) 00:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The inclusion of this single story supports one point of view (that Sanctuary cities make violent crime more likely). Would you also support stories that illustrate the arguments in favor of Sanctuary cities? There are plenty of stories about women trapped in abusive relationships, or US citizen children who are victimized, or violent crimes that are unreported in cities because they don't have Sanctuary policies. I would feel better about the inclusion of these anecdotes were they balanced as far as point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.4.160.10 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of entries

Why were certain entries removed?

ALL of these incidents were the results of sanctuary cities NOT enforcing immigration laws:

  • In March 2008, Jamiel Shaw Jr., a high school athlete, was gunned down in Los Angeles by Pedro Espinoza, an illegal immigrant gang member from MS 13, as he was walking home. It is believed that Espinoza mistook Shaw Jr. for a rival gang member. Espinoza's legal status was not checked even though had been arrested for assault and was released a day before the murder according to Police Chief Officer William Bratton. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=6013048

I'd really like to know why. I can post more evidence if more is needed.

If there is no response(s) by the end of 21 April I will re-post the entries. Zukabovich (talk) 22:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We don't list Virginia City or Newark as being sanctury cities. So are they or not? If not then the incidents don't belong here. So let's find sources to add them to the list, then add entries about controversies concerning their status.   Will Beback  talk  21:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Newark IS a sanctuary city: "The mayor of Newark, Cory A. Booker, has tried to keep the public discussion focused on his main goal: reducing the crime rate. Mr. Booker said he was frustrated that Mr. Carranza had been freed, but, responding to the debate surrounding the suspect’s illegal status, has come out firmly against involvingcity police in immigration matters.

He said such a role would hurt relationships with what he called “the most marginalized and vulnerable people within our community.” - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/nyregion/19newark.html?ref=nyregion

  • Virginia Beach WAS a sanctuary city at the time: "The city's previous rule had precluded police from asking foreigners about their status, with the exception of felony cases, but Police Chief Jake Jacocks says the new rule "is effective right now." - http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55504

Can the two removed entries be listed now? Zukabovich (talk) 22:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Newark, I don't see who is calling it a "sanctuary city". Do we have a source for that assertion? Deciding that it is one based on a vague comment by the mayor isn't the same thing.
In the case of Virginia Beach, Bill O'Reilly is the only person cited as calling it a "sanctury city". I don't think he can be considered a neutral observer in this context.   Will Beback  talk  23:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What I quoted from VB police chief Jake Jacocks pretty much stated that VB is a sanctuary city, a city that doesn't check the legal status of arrested individuals.
“My Police Department does not play an I.N.S. function,” Mr. Booker said. “We are not to be running around doing interrogations about whether someone is documented or not.” - Newark Mayor Cory Booker. In that quote Mr. Booker implied that the city wouldn't be checking the legal status of arrestees hence it's a sanctuary city. Zukabovich (talk) 23:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Implied" is not sufficient. We should have a source that calls it a "sanctuary city". It should be noted that local police are not generally tasked with enforcing federal law. Other than checking for outstanding warrants, cops usually stick with enforcing the laws thet they see being broken. So not taking the extra step of checking the immigration status of every misdemeanor suspect isn't extraordinary.   Will Beback  talk  23:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't ask (immigration policy)

This was the only entry on the talk page for the article "Don't ask (immigration policy)" which was merged with this page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposed merger with Sanctuary city

This is the first comment in the talk page. The Don't ask policy and the Sanctuary city policy appear to be one in the same. The Sanctuary city article is is better sourced and has more information. The way I figure things it would be for the best to take and extra content from the Don't ask article, move it over to the Sanctuary city article and leave a redirect just in case. - Schrandit (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Doesn't this legal theory seem to be closely related to Senator Calhoun's Doctrine of Nullification? I mean, Senator Calhoun said that if the feds passed a law the state didn't like, the state could get a convention together and nullify it in that state. Aren't the city officials in sanctuary cities saying, "We don't like the feds law, we're going to ignore it?" Samcan (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This article is biased

The information in the article supports only one point of view, that is, sanctuary policies have caused increased crime due to the fact that illegal immigrants are so predisposed. That is bullshit. This is a piss poor wiki article 15:32 26 Dec 2009

  1. ^ "Migration News Vol. 5 No. 2". UC Davis. April 1998. Retrieved 2008-08-14.
  2. ^ "Cop murder spotlights crisis of killer aliens: No government agency tracks crimes by illegals, not even attacks on police" http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52198
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