Talk:Spanish phonology

b/v as a voiced labiodental fricative (ie English v)

Perhaps we should include the fact that some native speakers, perhaps in an attempt to be "educated", pronounce both the b and the v in Spanish as a voiced labiodental fricative (English v). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.246.153.217 (talk) 04:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If we can find a reliable source that says so, I don't see why not. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on the dialect you're speaking about and mostly if the speaker had learned another mother language at the same time which does distinguish between the two sounds. But for standard spanish there is no distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.174.167.23 (talk) 06:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Trapezium vowel diagram

Hi, can someone add a trapezium to the vowel diagram, please? Thanks. --Kjoonlee 02:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, that's a toughie. The Journal of the International Phonetic Alphabet has a chart with formant values, but it's not the typical trapezium and I'm not sure how to convert it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

If you post the table, I'll see what I can do. Maybe the table will work just as well, with some work. --Kjoonlee 06:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahh?

— Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Peter Ladefoged has tiny vowel trapeziums for Spanish, Japanese, and Danish in his 1975 work A course in phonetics. If anyone has that work and would like to scan it, we may be in business here. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Diphthongs from Hiatus

Bowen & Stockwell (1955) say (p 237) "In normal transition, two unstressed vowels are [v̆v]" with the first being shorter than the second and gives the following examples.

[ĕa] /beatiˈtud/ beatitud ('beatitude')

[ăe] /maesˈtrita/ maestrita ('little teacher')

[ĕo] /leoˈnes/ leonés ('Leonese')

[ŏe] /poeˈtisa/ poetisa ('poetess')

[ăo] /aoˈrita/ ahorita ('right away')

[ŏa] /toaˈʝita/ toallita ('little towel')

Does that mean that Martínez-Celdrán et al (2003) are incorrect in transcribing maestro as [mae̯stɾo]? Bowen & Stockwell also seem to transcribe /iw/ and /uj/ where Martínez-Celdrán et al as well as Sparkman (1943) and Harris (1969) have transcribed or implied /ju/ and /wi/ respectively. Sparkman also cites Navarro Tomás (p 64) in pointing that ui is [uj] northern Spain (meaning it is [wi] elsewhere).

I'm not really sure what sort of generalization to make/accept in regards to the process of Spanish diphthongization. Any Thoughts? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If the work by Martínez-Celdrán you are referring to is Castilian Spanish, in this article the authors explicitly state that they are studying formal pronunciation of Spanish. Other authors might rather be speaking of everyday speech. In some parts of the Spanish-speaking world differences between formal and informal pronunciation can get strikingly large. --Jotamar (talk) 22:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

True, but I'm wondering if Martínez-Celdrán et al might be incorrect in their transcription of maestro, not that they're describing a hyperformal variety. It seems fishy to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Onslaught of unconstructive edits

It has occurred to me that the recent series of reversions and counterreversions might seem like an edit war between two uncompromising editors. If it were simply an issue of sources, I would be willing to mark certain statements with {{fact}}. However, the anon editor has shown on this page and others to be deliberately dishonest in attributing sources. Here are some examples:

• at voiced labiodental fricative, they attempted to add Spanish as an example by citing Martínez-Celdrán et al (2003). However, this source does not mention [v] as an allophone of /f/
• at voiced velar fricative, they added Spanish, again citing Martínez-Celdrán et al though the source specifically states that they're approximants.
• Here at Spanish phonology, they again falsely attributed Martínez-Celdrán et al to /f/ -> [v]
• Also here, in this string of edits, they
  • falsely attributed Martínez-Celdrán et al to a claim about dialectal variation,
  • changed the Andalusian allophone of /as/ from [æ̞] to [ɑ] (despite what the source says).

This false attribution is enough for me to do blind reverts and to not trust any anon editor who behaves like the series of IP addresses who have been adding and re-adding these and other edits. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There are so many mistakes on this article

Since when this is necessary to know:

| opaco || /oˈpako/ || 'opaque' || opacidad || /opaθiˈdad/ || 'opacity' |-

| sueco || /ˈsweko/ || 'Swedish' || suecia || /ˈsweθja/ || 'Sweden' |-

| belga || /ˈbelga/ || 'Belgium' || bélgico || /ˈbelxiko/ || 'Belgian' |-

| análogo || /aˈnalogo/ || 'analogous' || analogía || /analoˈxia/ || 'analogy' |}

Even, that Spanish is wrong; belga is Belgian and Bélgica is Belgium.

I see very uncompleted this article. Spanish has got a lot of allophones, which should be included in parenthese on the Spanish sounds chart. They are real sounds, although they are not distinguishable, they are articulated by the Spanish speakers. It is unfair how other languages as German, French, etc. specify loan sounds from other languages on their phonology articles, and you see such a poor information about the Spanish language. 84.120.160.122 (talk) 17:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I made an error in this table. I'm sorry if you feel the table is not "necessary." I don't see it as any more unnecessary than other parts of the article.

Because there are so many allophones (most of which require diacritics), the table might get too cluttered with such sounds. Is there perhaps a way of distinguishing major vs minor allophones so that we might include such a handful? Otherwise, IMHO the article's prose does a pretty decent job of covering allophones.

Also, I'm not familiar with Spanish loanword phonology. If the German and French phonology articles have info on that it's probably because editors have found published articles that say something about it. If we find anything, we can certainly include it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving the article

I suggest to modify the Spanish consonant table, or just add another table under it to show the Spanish consonants /b/, /d/, /g/, /s/, /θ*/, /f/, /x/, and /ʝ/ can turn into [β̞], [ð̞], [ɣ̞], [z], [ð*], [v], [χ], and [ɟʝ], respectively. Along with this it should include the allophones of the archiphoneme /N/ ([ɱ], [n̟*], [n̪], [nʲ], [ɲ], [ŋ], [ɴ]); the archiphone /L/ ([l̟*], [l̪], and [lʲ]). With regards to the allophones of /i/ and /u/, these are [j]~[ʝ*] - [i̯] and [w]~[w̝*] - [u̯] respectively. I also propose to write subscript (or superscript) as in the Dutch phonology article where they explain below the situations where the sounds occur on certain phonemes.

Main dialectal variations on consonants are:

• /θ/ (Spain except the Canary Islands, and some Andalusian dialects) - /s/ (the rest of the speakers).
• Merging /ʝ/(-/j/-/ʒ/) and /ʎ/ into one phoneme (yeísmo). Metropolitan areas in Spain /ʝ/~[ɟʝ], Argentina and Uruguay /ʒ/ (or /ʃ/)~[dʒ], the rest of the countries alternate between /ʝ/~[ɟʝ] and /j/~[dʒ].
• /x/ (most of Spain, Mexico, and South America) - /h/ (Caribbean Spanish, Andalusian Spanish, and Canarian Spanish)
• /s/ or [z] (most of Spain, Mexico, and some South American countries) - /h/ or silent (Caribbean Spanish, Andalusian Spanish, Canarian Spanish, Argentinian Spanish, and Chilean Spanish). If the "s" is dropped, the previous vowel is lowered. Few dialects may geminate the following consonant when is preceded by an "s".
• /n/ (most of Spain, Mexico, and South America) - /ŋ/ or /~/ (Caribbean Spanish, Andalusian Spanish, and Canarian Spanish). The allophone [ŋ] is common to all the Spanish speakers, it is part of the archiphoneme /N/.
• /tʃ/ (most of Spain, Mexico, and South America) - /ʃ/ (some Andalusian dialects, some Chilean dialects, Northern Mexico dialect, and some Caribbean Spanish dilects as Northern Colombian dialect and Panamanian dialect).

These dialectal features should be included on a different table to see the contrast among the pronunciations of the different dialects of the Spanish language. And include them as well on a phonological chart just as on the English phonology article where you can see included /x/ and /ʍ/, being these sounds mostly present in Scotland. The main consonant realisations listed above are common to some countries and large regions where the speakers use them. The same way the sound /θ/ is included; which is, in fact, a dialectal sound present in Castilian Spanish. The sounds mentioned previously should also be included as dialectal sounds, and show an alternation among sounds from different dialects. It is as standard to pronounce "z"/"c" as /θ/ in Spain, as in Argentina and Uruguay to pronounce "y"/"ll" as /ʒ/ (or /ʃ/)~[dʒ], etc.

As it is now, the article looks disorganised to read it and follow it properly. If this article is about an in-depth explanation about the Spanish phonology, it should include all the allophones which are sounds articulated by the Spanish speakers although they don't distinguish and realise about it. Concerning the contents mentioned above, they have already been proven true with sources on wikipedia; on notes and references. JAuMeh** (talk) 16:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I do see the benefit to indicating that /θ/ and /ʎ/ are dialectal but, as I've said before, we don't need to indicate all allophones on the table and I happen to think it's better that we stick it to phonemes. Trying to put as many allophones on the table and pidgeonholing descriptions of their distribution to superscript notes may work for Dutch, but not for Spanish. The table shouldn't be exhaustive and information shouldn't be given in table-only format.

Otherwise, most everything you mention is in the article is already present; the only things I spot that you mention aren't already in the article is the appearance of of [ʃ], which I haven't yet found any sourcing for.

How is it too disorganized? How do you recommend we reorganize it? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

stops

Per this article, the voiced stops in club de fútbol are all frics. Are they really? Also, I would expect some assimilation in fútbol, with the tb maybe [db]. kwami (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's really difficult to predict how a Spanish speaker will utter that sentence, as it includes 2 foreign consonants, the 'b' in club and the 't' in fútbol; in practice I think you would get a very wide array of different pronunciations. --Jotamar (talk) 23:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd transcribe club de fútbol [kluβ̞ ð̞e̞ ˈfut̪β̞o̞l], though my transcription is pretty standard-centric. It's kind of strange that these sounds are really more often approximants but are transcribed phonemically as voiced stops. Perhaps it's typographical constraints that keep us from seeing them as prototypically approximants that are "fortified" (rather than being stops that are lenited) in certain positions. I've never heard of Spanish assimilating voicing for stops across syllable boundaries, but I wouldn't be too surprised. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The /b/ wouldn't be fortified by the adjacent /t/? kwami (talk) 06:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It might be. Fortification doesn't occur after liquids (unless they're homorganic), nor does it seem to occur after fricatives (e.g. desde). But now that you mention it, [ˈfut̪bo̞l] sounds more correct. Is that sort of cluster common in Spanish? It could be the case that fortification also occurs after other stops but that this only occurs in loanwords. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Allophones in brackets and dialectal variation charts

Many other articles of phonology add them, and these sounds are articulated by the Spanish speakers.

Spanish is a global language, it has got several major dialects juts as GA, RP, AE, etc. In the English phonology article it is well explained in different charts the variation of the vowels and diphthongs from dialect to dialect. In Spanish occurs a lot of alternation in the pronunciation from the major dialects to the major dialects (mainly consonant changes, but also vowels openings, and vowels nasalitasion, which is common in Southern Spain, Caribbean, Venezuela, Argentina... ) mainly the pronunciation of "s", which could be articulated in many ways (/h/, /s/, /silent with vowel opening/). In Spain the zones that drop "s" are Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, South Valencian Community, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, and Melilla. In South America this is common as well in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Caribbean coast of Colombia, Panama, Chile, and Argentina. This should be highlighted on the article. It is remarkable that here it is added a sound /θ/ which is only articulated by less than 30 millions of people of all the speakers of Spanish, and it forgets about the /ʒ/ articulation of ll/y which is articulated by more people than articulates /θ/. Argentinians, Uruguayans and Paraguayans cannot see their sound there represented? It is as fear /θ/ as /ʒ/. And Spanish from northern Spain is a main dialect as well, as Argentinian-Paraguayan-Uruguayan.

The charts could be based in "the innovative pronunciation of Spanish" (Southern Spain, the Canary Islands, Venezuelan, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republica, Panama, Argentina), and "the conservative pronunciation of Spanish" (Northern Spanish dialect, Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia...). And a better way would be getting based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png

Americans and Australians would not be very happy in the case they do not represent their vowel pronunciation on the English phonological article, and it would only have the Receive Pronunciation, which is far less used than the GA. Just the same happens with Spanish. Spanish as well has got different patterns and ways of pronunciation based on this map, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Variedades_principales_del_espa%C3%B1ol.png

I would be glad to help the improvement of this article.

84.120.141.138 (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article or did you stop at the consonant chart? What you are asking for is present in the article. It's not in the chart because the chart is of vowel phonemes. — Ƶ§œš¹ b>[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course I have read it, and to my point of view it is just the Spanish spoken in Spain by not all the population there, around 30 million people. If you have heard speakers from many places you would notice what I am trying to say, and this article doesn't show very good the allophones, which ARE real sounds articulated when people speak.

There are other pattern dialects aside the one shown here on this table of consonants. For those speakers from Andalusia, Canary Islands, Murcia, Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Republic, blah, blah, blah... If these dialects drop "s" or turn it into /h/, won't exist other sounds, as /θ/, /z/, /ð/ (not /ð̞/).

Also lacks some explantion about vowels. Mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ might close and open to close-mid [e - o] and open-mid [ɛ - ɔ]. And it should be said that mid-vowels /e̞/ and /o̞/ are instable and could tend to be pronounced [e - o] and [ɛ - ɔ]. Many dictionaries differences following a rule of Tomás Navarro Tomás. [Spanish] Las vocales medias /e/ y /o/ presentan unos alófonos algo abiertos y cerrados, muy aproximados a [ɛ] y [o], en las siguientes posiciones:

En contacto con el sonido de doble erre ("rr") /r/, como en "perro", "torre", "remo", "roca". Cuando van precediendo al sonido /x/, como en "teja", "hoja". Cuando van formando parte de un diptongo decreciente, como en "peine", "boina". Además, el alófono abierto de /o/ se produce en toda sílaba que se encuentre trabada por consonante y el alófono abierto de /e/ aparece cuando se haya trabado por cualquier consonante que no sea /d/, /m/ y /n/: "pelma", "pesca", "pez", "costa", "olmo". El fonema /a/ presenta tres variedades alofónicas:

Una variedad palatal, cuando precede a consonantes palatales, como en "malla", "facha", "despacho". Otra variante velarizada se produce cuando precede a las vocales /o/, /u/ o a las consonantes /l/, /x/: "ahora", "pausa", "palma", "maja". Una variante media, que se realiza en los contornos no expresados en los párrafos anteriores: "caro", "compás", "sultán". 84.120.141.138 (talk) 06:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Just comparing, the English phonology article adds /x/ in brackets, a sound I have hardly heard in English. There are sounds which are not allophones that are dialectal in Spanish, as the Scottish /x/... How many people pronounce an /x/ sound? The 5 million people that inhabits Scotland?! What about Spanish? /ʒ/, /h/, /ŋ/ etc ???!! Argentinian /ʒ/? Argentinian-Venezuelan-Andalusian-Cuban-Chilean-etc /h/? /ŋ/?? Andalusian-Caribbean-Venezuela... These are sounds as the /x/ in English. And the vowels opening in Andalusian and Murcian Spanish?

If you add /x/ in English, why in Spanish it cannot be added dialectal sounds?!

The English phonology article adds /x/ on the consonant table in brackets, and with a number clarifies it. It says:

Consonant phonemes of English Bilabial Labio-

dental Dental Alveolar Post- alveolar2 Palatal Velar Glottal Nasal1 m n ŋ Plosive p b t d k ɡ Affricate tʃ dʒ Fricative f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ (x)3 h Approximant ɹ1, 2, 5 j w4 Lateral l1, 6

3. The voiceless velar fricative /x/ is dialectal, occurring largely in Scottish English. In other dialects, words with these sounds are pronounced with /k/.

Not only the English phonology article, the French one adds /ʎ/ and /ŋ/. /ʎ/ is dialectal... It's got to be very dialectal as I have never heared it. And /ŋ/, because it appears in words as "camping", "parking". These words also exist in Spanish, and the sound is very common in Andalusian Spanish and Caribbean Spanish.

Those sounds appears on the main consonant chart of French

What that article says:

IPA chart French consonants

Labial Dental/ Alveolar Palato- alveolar Palatal Velar Uvular plain lab. Nasal m n ɲ ŋ1 Plosive p b t d k ɡ Fricative f v s z ʃ ʒ ʁ2 Approximant3 j4 ɥ w Lateral l (ʎ)4

1. The velar nasal /ŋ/ is not a native phoneme of French, but occurs in loan words in final position such as parking or camping.[1] People who have difficulty with this sound replace it with a prenasalized [ŋɡ] sequence instead of a single consonant [ŋ].[citation needed] This sequence also appears almost systematically where there is a possible liaison with the initial vowel of a word pronounced just after it.[citation needed]

3. /ʎ/ has merged with /j/ in a number of dialects (including the standard). This accounts for the appearance of [j] in the syllable coda and minimal pairs like ail [aj] ('garlic') vs haï [ai] ('hated').[4]

Why is not fear to add real sounds to the Spanish consonant chart, whereas other languages add loanwords sounds and almost non-existent sounds as /ʎ/ (I have never EVER heard this sound in French!!)and /ŋ/ in French and /x/ in English.

The thing is... The Spanish phonology article lacks of order, lacks of sounds and a better explanation of the mutation of sounds in the pronunciation of Spanish.

84.120.141.138 (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It takes a bit to chisel through your prose, so if you could cut to the point in future posts, it would help.

One thing this article does not fall short on is explaining allophones or the phonetics of consonants. I can see reasoning behind enclosing θ and ʎ in parentheses since, as you point out, this is done at English phonology and other places in Wikipedia.

I'm pleased that you've gotten information about vowel allophony. It's from Manual de pronunciación española, right? Could you tell me what page (or pages) you're quoting from? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

http://liceu.uab.es/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp

http://revistas.ucm.es/fll/0212999x/articulos/RFRM9090110075A.PDF

Spanish main dialects, and Spanish spoken in the media: http://www.colmex.mx/academicos/cell/ravila/docs/Pronunciacion.pdf

Would you please check these links? These ones contain a lot of information about the Spanish phonology and phonetics:

http://liceu.uab.es/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/variacion_fonetica_espanol.html

http://liceu.uab.es/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/IPA_vow_sp.html

http://liceu.uab.es/~joaquim/phonetics/fon_esp/fonetica_espanol_segmental.html#fonemas_esp

The sentence "Las estrellas parecen espejos" and "los dos" can be pronounced

• Traditional Castilian Spanish [las e̞sˈtɾe̞ʎas paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n e̞sˈpe̞xo̞s] / [lo̞z do̞s]
• Eastern Andalusian Spanish-Murcian-Southern Castile-La Mancha [læ̞ ɛˈtɾe̞ʝæ̞ paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n ɛˈpe̞xɔ] / [lɔ dɔ]
• Western Andalusian Spanish [las/lah ɛ̞ʰˈtɾe̞ʝaʰ paˈɾe̞θẽ̞ŋ ɛ̞ʰˈpe̞hɔ̞ʰ] / [lɔ̞ʰ dɔ̞ʰ] (the "s" in las, followed by a vowel can be pronounced [s] or [h], depending on the speaker]
• Canarian Spanish [las/lah e̞hˈtɾe̞ʝah paˈɾe̞θẽ̞ŋ ehˈpe̞ho̞h] / [lo̞h do̞h] (the "s" in las, followed by a vowel can be pronounced [s] or [h], depending on the speaker)
• Mexican Spanish [las e̞sˈtɾe̞ʝas paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n e̞sˈpe̞xo̞s] / [lo̞z do̞s] (Mexican Spanish relaxes unstress vowels)
• Colombian Spanish [las e̞sˈtɾe̞ʝas paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n e̞sˈpe̞xo̞s] / [lo̞z do̞s]
• Venezuelan-Caribbean Spanish [lah e̞hˈtɾe̞ʝah paˈɾe̞θẽ̞ŋ e̞hˈpe̞ho̞h] / [lo̞h do̞h]
• Argentinian Spanish [las ɛ̞ʰˈtɾe̞ʒas paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n ɛ̞ʰˈpe̞xo̞s] / [lɔ̞ʰ do̞s]
• Chilean Spanish [las ɛ̞ʰˈtɾe̞ʝaʰ paˈɾe̞θẽ̞n ɛ̞ʰˈpe̞xɔ̞ʰ] / [lɔ̞ʰ dɔ̞ʰ]

Bolivian Spanish: http://cvc.cervantes.es/obref/aih/pdf/06/aih_06_1_090.pdf

(/ʃ/) could be added as well, there are common English loan words, plus other, which are pronounced with /ʃ/ as show, fashion, flash, squash... 84.120.141.138 (talk) 21:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Those are some nice finds. My Spanish isn't too hot, so it might take me a while to understand them. It seems that liceu.uab.es is connected to Joaquim Llisterri and the links you've provided from that site look like thorough summaries of what different sources say. The Almeida, Ávila, and Gordon pieces all look scholarly and shouldn't be too hard to cite if they provide useful information.

It seems that the different pronunciations of a particular Spanish utterence might be better suited for Spanish dialects. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

If you need any help with anything, you can ask me :)

I think it is important, at least in Spanish to cite the main dialects on the phonology article. As English cites Received Pronunciation, General American, General Australian... I know there is just a(n) RAE. But the reality is more decentralised. Couldn't the phonology table be based at least on the four main dialects; Castilian Spanish, Mexican Spanish, Caribbean Spanish, and Southern Cone Spanish? And if this article cannot add all the Spanish allophones, can these be added on the "IPA transcription for Spanish" article?

There are two ways to spell words // and [], in a phonological way, which is only based on the proper phonemes, does not show what people may pronounce in Spanish.

This is kind of difficult to see where all these sounds fit good. And I think it is more real, at least for the Spanish language to use phonetics [] rather than pure phonology which do not show what is the real pronunciation of the sound.

Another thing, this article says: Caribbean dialects, as well as those of Panama and of the Atlantic coast off Colombia, exhibit a form of simplification of coda consonants. It should be added, this feature is also done in Andalusia, Murcia, Extremadura, South Castile-La Mancha, Canary Islands, and also in Venezuela. ven pronounced /bẽ/. However Andalusian phonology is more complex and they drop more sounds or mutate them.

Final /d/ or more real [ð̞], is common to be silent in most of the Spanish speaking countries. Nowadays it is dropped most of the times, Madrid or usted are correctly pronounced [ma'ð̞ri] and [us'te̞], and [ma'ð̞rið̞] and [us'te̞ð̞], other possible pronunciations are [ma'ð̞riθ] and [us'te̞θ], and [ma'ð̞rit] and [us'te̞t]. <http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Foro-preguntas/ARCHIVO-Foro/d%20final%20de%20palabra.htm

It is totally wrong that you have put those sounds in brakets... Those are real sounds.

It is not fear the point of writing phonology articles, does it follows the same pattern in all of them? As, as far I can see it says unlogical things, as in the French one including /ʎ/ and the English one including /x/ a sound only pronounced in Scotland. So, in Spanish can we include the sounds in Andalusia, which forms the Kingdom of Spain as much as Scotland forms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I don't see logic on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 (talk) 16:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

84.120.141.138 (talk) 06:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. The parentheses simply mean that the phonemes don't appear in all dialects. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

What is what you dont understand? You include a sound that appear only in one dialect in English, the /x/ sound for the word loch, in Scotish English... So following this pattern you should include for Spanish /h/,

/ʰ/, /ʒ/, /ŋ/, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.199.233 (talk) 22:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You're confusing phonemes and allophones. [h] is an allophone of /s/ in coda position for a number of dialects and [ŋ] is an allophone of /n/ before velar consonants and, in some dialects, in coda position. These aren't separate phonemes, but contextual variants. Similarly [h] and [ʒ] aren't separate phonemes, they're the same phoneme as /x/ and /ʝ/, respectively, with different phonetic properties. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Am I correct in understanding that Ávila is saying (page 10) that varieties that have /θ/ don’t have /ʃ/ and vice versa? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Consonant allophones

The article is not *useful* for my purpose of quickly finding a summary with dialect (how about 2 dialects ??) differentiation of allophones. It appears to lack simple tables or lists of simple examples for consonant sounds. Since I am trying to learn these I am not able to write the article; those who can - please do. I can go read Martínez-Celdrán for in-depth phonemics. Thanks ! Netrapt (talk) 03:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you, at least the explanation about the sounds' changing (consonant mutation, from voiceless to voiced) should be better explained and clearer - [z]~/s/, [ð]~/θ/, [v]~/f/, [χ]~/x/, [β̞]~/b/, [ð̞]~/d/, [ɣ̞]~/g/, etc. - It is good the table of the "N" archiphoneme and its allophones in Spanish. The rest of the allophones are sounds as well and they should be included on a table for a better view.

84.120.141.138 (talk) 06:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Netrapt, I'm really confused here. This article isn't useful to you because it doesn't summarize how dialects differ phonetically in a simple table? What makes you think that this is what this article should set out to do? What sort of "examples for consonant sounds" table are you looking for? There are three in the article already.

There are seven tables on the article right now. I'm open to what other tables people have in mind, but a blanket list of allophones is not a characteristic of a quality phonology article. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

A little problem here....

I have read through this, and thing like nasal vowels,/θ/,[z],[v],[χ], are purely dialectal and should be noted as such. Also, germination occurs in phrases such as "son nuevos" in some dialects, instead of [ˈsõ̞ ˈnwe̞βo̞s]. Does any one else see this problem? Is this not Spanish phonology and not purely mainstream European Spanish phonology? ₭øμt̪ũ (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Right now it kinda is mainstream European Spanish phonology (as is expalined in the beginning of the article. Statements about other dialects should be sourced. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So shouldn't references from other dialects be removed? And should separate pages for other dialects be made? I also think the page should be renamed to "European Spanish phonology" if it only shows the phonology of European Spanish. Maybe in the same sense that English does, one page for European Spanish, and another for Mexican Spanish( Most widespread Spanish). But, doing so, you would have to include the sub-dialects of Mexican Spanish. — ₭øμt̪ũ (talk) 01:21, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

You should include in this article the pronunciation of the main dialects of the Spanish language.

As in the English phonology article, it is so well explained the vowel alternation among American English (GA), British English (RP), Australian English... In Spanish occurs alternation in consonants, from Mexico to Argentina, and from Castile to Andalusia and the Spanish speaking countries in the Caribbean. Why can I only see the pattern from Castile, and not the most spoken pattern as the Mexico one? Or just any other pattern than this one. Mexican Spanish tends to drop vowels, whereas other dialects tend to drop consonants and open vowels, etc.

Yes, these sounds /θ/,[z],[v],[χ] are from Castilian Spanish. However these sounds are not present in dialects where /s/, /x/, and /θ/ are dropped (S-dropping dialects)

Moreover [z] and [v] are sounds from Mexican Spanish, inland Colombian Spanish, in addition to Castilian Spanish. But these sounds are not pronounced in the Spanish Caribbean dialects, Southern Spain and the Canary Islands, most of Argentina and Uruguay.

All Spanish dialects nasalise vowels when they are in contact with nasals, however this has got a point of controversy as there are dialects that may drop the nasal consonants or pronounce the nasal as velar (Southern Spain and the Canary Islands, Caribbean Spanish, coast of Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica) and the rest of dialects would pronounced the nasal consonants as it is, plus the nasal vowel.

Mexican Spanish, tends to drop vowels and pronounce all the consonants, this dialect does not drop /s/, /x/... They use [z], [v] but not /θ/~[ð] (it is not the same than [ð̞])... In fact, "durazno" is pronounced [du'ɾazno̞]. Yes the "z" is [z]. "Asno" is pronounced as ['azno̞]. In Castilian (Northern and Central Spain), "durazno" would be pronounced [du'ɾaðno̞] and "asno" the same than in Mexico, ['azno̞]. In Andalusian, and the rest of the s-dropping dialects could be, ['ahno], ['anno] and ['æ̞no] In Mexican Spanish they reduce vowels, to complete omission. Trastos [tɾasts]. 86.177.205.131 (talk) 14:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

What sub-dialect of Mexican Spanish are you referring to? I have never heard [v] in it, and I thought it was nonexistent in any dialect of Spanish( except for uneducated Spanish in the U.S.) But I have heard of the voicing of s before a nasal( from my mothers side), but its not existent in all. ₭øμt̪ũ 23:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

/v/ doesn't exist in Spanish, only by some educated and bilingual people who might use it in Spanish; the sound /v/ exists in Alicante, Valencia, Castellón and the Balearic Islands by bilingual speakers. Most people who speak catalan/valencian in these places pronounce /v/ in Spanish. There are also educated Spanish speakers from Spain and South America who pronounce /v/ and not /b/, however this is not standard as Spanish lacks of this sound.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_churro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic#See_also

What I was talking about is [v], as "an allophone of /f/", (do not get confused with /v/, the phoneme). [v] or a voiced /f/, exists in Spanish, the /f/ as /s/, needs to be in contact with a voiced consonant to be pronounced as [v] and [z]. ['davne̞] Dafne, [av'ɣ˕ano̞] afgano; asno ['azno]. These sounds are allophones. I've listened to so many singers who use /v/ all the time without pronouncing it as /b/. And I have met very educated South Americans, as Venezuelans, and Chilians who pronounce "v" as /v/ and not /b/. The s-voicing [z] doesn't exist in the dialects that drop consonants and mainly "s" (so obvious). So, if your dialect doesn't drop consonants and you pronounce /s/ you might also pronounce [z].

Another thing, in Spain the English word "pub" is pronounced /paf/, yes with an /f/. But, "club" is pronounced /klub/. So, in Spain the sentence "el pub de Marta" would be pronounced [e̞l pav ð̞e̞ 'maɾta] It is also remarkable the pronunciation of the word "ovni", which i've heard so many times ['o̞vni], yes with [v]. And also, but much less ['o̞β̞ni].

This is a never ending story. The Spanish phonology article doesn't show the main differences amongst the main Spanish dialects as the English one does. You can see on the English phonology article how the British pronounce, and also how do the Americans and the Australians. Americans use an r-coloured vowel whereas British drops "r"... Well very similar in Spanish, but the letter is not "r" but "s". So, what about the Spanish phonology article?!?! An Andalusian would pronounce different from a Castilian as an America would from a British... And what about the Mexican, Argentinian. This article continues to be so poor and deficient. You include on the English phonology article the /x/ for a sound it only appears in Scotland. Is it the most spoken English accent in the world? I don't get why you can say on the English phonology article /x/ exists for only a word "loch" where most of the speakers pronounce it with /k/ at the end. And you cannot say real information about the main Spanish dialects on this article.

The English phonology article includes sounds from the Scottish English /x/, and the Spanish one doesn't even include sounds from South America, or even allophones properly so that people can see the REAL pronunciation because you don't allow it, even though there are loads of sources with more information to put on here. The French phonology article includes /ʎ/ (dialectal) and /ŋ/ (loan from English)...

Anyway, this is Wikipedia :)

92.4.203.3 (talk) 01:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC) Jaume87 (talk) 02:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

We have some sourced information on dialectal differences. As the article's primary contributor to its present state, I can say that of the resources I've had access, there is more attention on Standard Spanish. This is one of the reasons this article focuses on Standard Spanish. This can change in the future, but all information should be sourced.

What phonemes are missing in the chart? There's no reason to put allophones. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

"Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects, especially those in Latin America".

The /ʎ/ sound does exist in Latin America, it is common in Paraguay, Bolivia and some parts of Peru and Colombia. So that sentence is wrong. 149.254.58.41 (talk) 00:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is technically correct as it isn't saying that /ʎ/ is completely absent in Latin America. How should it be worded to be less confusing? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be better said, "Consonants in parentheses are phonemes of Standard Spanish but absent in many dialects". without referring to Latin America. In Spain itself there are zones where /ʎ/ and /θ/ don't exist; as the Canary Islands, many zones of Andalusia, etc. There are zones in Spain where /θ/ doesn't exist but exists /ʎ/, this occurs in the South of Alicante, some parts of Galicia. Also, there are zones where /ʎ/ doesn't exist but /θ/ exists, many parts of Andalusia. Another thing is that /ʎ/ doesn't exist in some metropolitan areas of Spain. It exists though in the second largest city of Spain, Barcelona. 92.3.132.146 (talk) 17:53, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

this is a map that shows the distribution of /ʎ/ as a separate phoneme and this shows that of /θ/. The absence of these phonemes is especially prevalent outside of Northern Spain and not mentioning it would be a removal of important information. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, only /θ/ exists in Spain, and I think it does in Equatorial Guinea as well, I don't know that much about it. However /ʎ/ is still common in few countries of South America, mainly in Bolivia and Paraguay. So, you can say that sentence if you refer to /θ/. 92.3.132.146 (talk) 19:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

But the sentence doesn't say that the consonants are completely absent from Latin America. It says that they're rarer there, which is true for both consonants. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there are phonemes missing

I think that /w/ and /j/ (written hi- and hu- plus vowel)are phonemes, for example:

Huevo (egg) /weβ̞o/

Hielo (ice) /jelo/

Maybe in most dialects hie- and ye- are homophones, but in Argentinean Spanish and many others, there is s distinction between hie- and ye-, for example: Hielo (ice) is pronounced /jelo/ and Yelo is pronounced /ʃelo/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuuagso (talk • contribs) 19:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The article actually deals with this. This phonemic w, which differs from a nonsyllabic u, is represented as [w̝] in the article (though I have seen it argued that it is an underlyingly labialized velar plosive /ɡʷ/). The phonemic j that differs from non-syllabic i is represented as [ʝ], though, as you imply, its realization differs from dialect to dialect. The latter is widespread and is even in the consonant chart but the distribution of the former is less clear without further sourcing.

Another thing, the orthographic representation of /ʝ/, is not limited to <hi> before vowels. It's also represented by <y> before vowels as in yendo and yo. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

/ɛ̝/ = /e̞/ and /ɔ̝/ = /o̞/

For a better view, and for contrasting with the mid-close vowels, /e/ and /o/, and the mid-open vowels, /ɛ/ and /ɔ/. The Spanish vowels "e" and "o" are real mid vowels, it should be added for people to see the Spanish vowels are somehow higher than /e/ and somehow lower than /ɛ/. Same for "o". 86.177.200.58 (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That's what the diacritic is for. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 04:10, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeh I know! But both sounds /ɛ̝/ and /ɔ̝/ are just the same as /e̞/ and /o̞/, and to specify so the readers can contrast and compare the Spanish (and Romanian) mid vowels with the close-mid vowels /e/-/o/ and open-mid vowels /ɛ/-/ɔ/ that are used by the rest of the major Romance languages (Portuguese, French, Catalan, Italanian) /e/-/o/ and /ɛ/-/ɔ/.

So, for a better understanding; /ɛ̝/ = /e̞/ and /ɔ̝/ = /o̞/ in Spanish and Romanian.

86.177.200.58 (talk) 10:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

If they're the same, why would both make it easier to understand? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Because it is a mid vowel!! Both are synonymous, the same, equal sounds!! /ɛ̝/ = /e̞/ and /ɔ̝/ = /o̞/, something in between [e] and [ɛ] and [o] and [ɔ].

Let me tell you the English "r" is an approximant /ɹ/ for most of the English speakers. Currently, it is transcribed as /r/ (this is a rolled "r", coronal trill. The "r" pronunciation found in Spanish or Scottish English). Why is it /r/ and not /ɹ/?! It is so obvious, so one can understand it better. So, i am arguing about two equal sounds and not about something that is totally different.

/r/, /ɹ/, /ʀ/,/ʁ/ ([ʁ̝]: uvular fricative and [ʁ̝] uvular approximant).

Why are you so reluctant?

86.179.19.18 (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me see if I get your argument correctly. Right now, the article transcribes the Spanish mid vowels as [e̞] and [o̞], using the symbols for close-mid vowels with a lowering diacritic to indicate that they are mid. You're arguing that we should, in tandem, also use [ɛ̝] and [ɔ̝]--that is, the symbols for open-mid vowels with a raising diacritic that indicates they are mid--to represent the same vowels.

You're saying that this would help illustrate that they are mid vowels, but the diacritic serves that purpose already. Adding the other vowels would just make it more confusing. In addition, I've never seen the open-mid vowels used to represent the mid vowels of Spanish unless a source is talking about actual open-mid allophones. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Honestly it is more confusing transcribing in English /ɹ/ as /r/ and no one complains. Yes, i know what diacritics are for. And it would be just for contrasting with other Romance languages where they differenciate between close-mid vowels and mid-open vowels. In Spanish "e" and "o" are in between /e/ and /ɛ/ & /o/ and /ɔ/, so a lowered /e̞/ and /o̞/ are the same as a raised /ɛ̝/ and /ɔ̝/, mid vowels :) 86.180.91.251 (talk) 13:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)