Talk:21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg

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Unless you cite books or neutral sites this will be reversed. Citing Serb sources and using unsubstantiated "Muslims killed all Jews" in light of what's going on today in Serbia /Kosovo will be reversed. Cite or leave it alone. Keep it Fake (talk) 20:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Division of 6000?

I am adding a half division. 6500 joined and they deserted within weeks. Divisions are 10,000 to 20,000 troops Keep it Fake (talk) 22:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

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I do not think that the information of this article is entirely accurate. It seems like a sincere effort to induce people into a personal line of reasoning without concerning itself too much with historical accuracy.

It is true that the Germans constituted the division along the same lines that saw the emergence of other foreign SS units. However, the Albanians of Kosovo knew nothing and cared nothing about the National Socialist policies of Hitler. Instead they used the opportunity to take revenge on the Serb and Montenegrin population that was settled in Kosovo between 1920-1938. While in itself a despicable action, this was a response to the colonialist policies of the central government in Belgrade. Their main motivation was revenge and a naive hope that the Germans were friends that would bring about a permanent change in the region.

As a military unit the Division's role is debatable. Being constituted as a force to be engaged in anti-partisan operation it had an initial membership of 6,500 (plus change). Within two months more that 3,500 deserted as they didn't want to be deployed in areas away from home (meaning village or city). The Germans ever since had trouble in keeping up with the numbers. Eventually they gave up, disbanded the division and rolled up the remainder of those who decided to stay in the Kampfgruppe Skanderbeg attched to SS-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen". This detachment saw action in Serbia, Bosnia and some members found their way to Austria.

On a final note, the internet contains very few pages written about this Albanian SS Division. Virtually all of them are Serbian sources which, in light of the Albanian-Serbian animosity make hardly credible sources. If the division was as cruel as the writer of the article suggests it was, then sources other than Serbian would have been available. There aren't (at least as many as there are for other SS Divisions) The German or Allied sources would have mentioned it and memebers would have been brought to international justice. As it happens, they were not.

Well, I'd disagree. You say that "Albanians of Kosovo knew nothing and cared nothing about the National Socialist policies of Hitler" - how could anyone live in Europe of the time and not know that? You say that their main motivation was revenge - a revenge to what? Nikola 17:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

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I am not saying that you shouldn't state their deeds, but the way the article portrays them is akin to Einsatzgruppen, o sort of Totenkopf verbande unit which clearly they were not

If you regard the Kosovar-Albanians of the time as deeply indoctrinated people, politically savvy, and ideologically compatible with Nazi policies than reality escapes you, to say the least. One thing motivated them and thats a fact, research it if you must would be as I mentioned it the revenge toward the Serbian policy of colonizing Kosovo. Kosovo may be the heartleand of the Serbian nation - that's an entirely different discussion, but it is also a fact that Albanians, at the time, still a majority in Kosovo, were suffering from the policies of Belgrade in bringing in on regular basis colonials from inner Serbia to replace the lands made vacant from the forceful removal and deportation of the Albanians in Turkey. Then there were the economic incentives created for these colonials at the expanse of the ALbanians.

Former mayor of Vienna and Ribentropp's special counsel for Southeastern Europe Hermann Neubacher states during the initial phases of training the division was poorly led and performed terribly against the partisans. Also they prefered to rob and fight their "traditional enemy" (I believe Serbs are implied) rather than fight along military lines. Coupled with massive desertions, the disappoinment was so great that by the end of 1944 the division was disbanded. Having been conceived in February 1944, suffering major desertion in October and being disbanded, lets say, December; in addition of being led by Germans (to whom the petty differences between serb and albanian farmer would have been of little importance) I really doubt their worth as both a military and police force. Yes they did enagage in some atrocities, but I dont think you should put this out of context given the bad blood between Albanians and Serbs at the time. Therefore I wouyld call this revenge. Again, dont ask "how could anyone live in Europe of the time and not know that??" That is not a realistic question. A population, steeped into feudal patterns, virtually illiterate, completely cut off the influence of Western civ.,... even if they knew it, they wouldnt have cared about it.

Bernd J. Fischer, an author who wrote about it reports Germans were popular in Albania, but the majority didn.t believe in the final victory of the Axis. They respected Hitler, but abhorred fascism. It is ironic to read such contradictory viewpoints. In fact the respect of the ALbanians for the Germans came from the times of the WWI when the Austrian-Hungarian armies had accoupied large tarritories of Albania.

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I could agree with some of your points, but I don't think that the article says what you say it says. For example, when you say above that "Albanians of Kosovo knew nothing and cared nothing about the National Socialist policies of Hitler" - I disagree, but anyway, it is not stated in the article. And I don't regard Kosovo Albanians of the time as deeply indoctrinated, but the article doesn't say that, either. And so on. Nikola 09:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

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Again, I am not against the accusations that Albanians killed Serbs and Montenegrins during their unification stint with Albania proper. It is highly unrealistic to expect the contrary especially since for the last 70 years or so Albanians and Slavs just vented at each other. The Serb retreat in 1915 thru Albania is another example. However, I am against the general feel of the article which makes Albanians appear as they are indoctrinated Nazi Einsatzgruppen. The artticle doesn't state this, but the reader is left with such an emotion. In order to prevent inaccuracies, I would add, since it is your article, the reasons behind that prompted the creation of the division, why they were so dead-set against the Serbs and Montenegrins, and so on and forth. One more thing, what make you disagree with the quation?

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I did not write this article; most of it is written by User:Catalan. I don't think that the article has such feel, but if you do, edit the article, and change it, and I will tell you if you disagree.

By the way, when on talk page, you should sign your text with ~~~~. Nikola 07:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Author of the Article

I'm not a serb, I have dual citizenship to the United States and Spain. The source material is not Serbian either, it's British. So until you provide YOUR OWN verifiable material, your edits are going to be COTINOUSLY reverted.

JonCatalan 18:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Now, it says that the division's original intentions were to purify the race. The division was created by the Germans; specifically, under the orders of Heinrich Himmler. There is nothing false, and indeed, it would only make sense. The only sentence that says that the division actually carried out its task is the final sentence, and it would become notorious for murder. But that's not to say it was the only thing killing at the time. There were dozens of Serbian groups and fighters that massacred Macedonians, Albanians and Croats during the war as well. But you cannot edit the article, vandalize it, and claim that it's all written under Serbian nationalism, when it's simply untrue. Please, have a bit more etiquette. JonCatalan 19:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have marked the article as vprotected because vandalism. I also suspect sockpuppetry at work of the like going on the Kosovo article. Asterion 18:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Jon Catalan

That book of Chris Bishop is published just recently (in 2005) in an attempt to revision the history. But given that books with historical distortions do not have a wide range of readers, you seem to act as a marketing manager of Chris Bishop to advertise his book on Wikipedia.

I now start refuting your comments. About Ottoman Empire: have a look at what you have written (I am copying your original text): The division arm patch consisted of a black double-headed eagle on a red background, and the division was named after George Kastrioti Skanderbeg (1405 - 1468), who was renamed Iskander Bey after fighting for the Turks, who captured him earlier. He later led the unsuccessful attempt at Albanian independence against the Ottomans. Now, have a look at my previous comments about who captured him earlier. Whether Chris Bishop or you are saying so, it does not matter. What matters is that it is a lie. You have also received a remark by someone, not in the talk page but in your text, about Skanderbeg’s unsuccessful attempt at Albanian independence against the Ottomans, who told you: who writes this stuff, Skanderbeg fought and won against Ottomans for 25 years. Had Skanderbeg not been successful we won’t see Serbs speaking Serbian today. Come on let’s be serious, he concluded.

You also wrote that the task of the division was to establish a pure Albanian race in the region, among others, free of Jews. By the way, have you clicked on the link that I provided in my previous comment about the relation between Albanians and the Jews during WWII? Is that a CREDIBLE source? For you it may be not, for the rest of the world it is. You know why? Because it is written not by Chris Bishop, any Spaniard like you, but by a Jew called Haroey Samer who titled his thorough and detailed investigation Rescue In Albania: One Hundred Percent Of Jews In Albania Rescued From Holocaust, published by Brunswick Press, California, 1997. If you want to read it click here http://www.aacl.com/index11.html

Kosovo had the highest Jewish survival during WWII after Albania in occupied territories by Axis. Of total 520 Jews in Kosovo on the eve of WWII, 320 or over 60% survived (Source: read the book of Cambridge Professor Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History, New York University Press; New Update edition (November 2000).

You or Chris Bishop (it does not matter who) wrote that: It was originally designed to combat partisans in Yugoslavia, but it was used early on to massacre Orthodox Serbs in Kosovo, forcing over ten thousand families to flee north, and allowing ethnic Albanian farmers to settle in their stead. To prove that just the opposite has happened, you should not read any other book of Chris Bishop, but the facts published by some Serb scholars. Here is one source: Obradovič, Milovan (1981), Agrarna Reforma i Kolonizacija na Kosovu 1918-1941, (meaning: Agrarian Reform and Colonization in Kosova 1918-1941), Institut za Istoriju Kosova, Priština. This is a PhD dissertation showing who was massacring who, who grabbed the land of Albanians in Kosovo, who was fleeing from the terror to Turkey, and many more. The book is in Serbian and follows a vast number of Serb families by names and last names, their location where they came from to settle in Kosovo in the land taken by terror. Agrarian reform and kolonization continued until 1999.

Who needs more CREDIBLE sources?

I will revert your writing on this topic as long as an administrator allows you to post inaccurate things for marketing purposes, i.e. promote the book of Chris Bishop. By the way, I am an economist and know marketing better than you and Chris Bishop.

Isa Mulaj

Jewish population

The article said:

Not one Jew was handed over in Albania itself, which was the only country to come out of the second world war with a larger Jewish population than it had at the beginning of the war.

I've changed it to:

Not one Jew was handed over in Albania itself, which was the only Nazi-occupied country to come out of the second world war with a larger Jewish population than it had at the beginning of the war.

This corresponds with statement on the AACL website[1], and is probably what was intended to be said in the first place. Jews were obviously not deported from Allied countries that were not occupied. -- Arvind 15:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well Albania wasn't occupied by the Germans but by Italians, who unlike the Germans didn't demand Jews to be rounded up, so the fact that Jews in Albania had a high survival rate is hardly a surprise. In any case, this information is irrelevent to this article, because the SS Skanderbeg operated in Kosovo, not Albania, and consisted of Albanians from Kosovo. So events that occured in Albania do not belong in this article. Edrigu 20:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Weeell, Germany occupied Albania on September 1943 after Italy surrendered and pretty much controlled the country until November 1944, so it seems you were WRONG. Do you double-check before posting such nonesense or is this how you always act? Presenting information as if it is undesputed fact? - PG-Rated 04:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Objection

It’s shame that article about SS division contains information about saving the Jews. I didn’t know anything about this humanitarian aspect of SS. I think that these information should be excluded from this article.

I believe that Albanian families who participated in saving the Kosovo Jews in World War II do not deserve to be mentioned together with members of SS. They deserve special article that will talk about their humanity. All the members of Wikipedia who want to write on this subject can find relevant information on official website of United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC. --Marko M 10:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

More objections

One more objection. In further reading, there are more books, articles and sources that doesn’t relate to this article or its subject. This article speaks about one of the SS divisions.

How can this book Milovan Obradovič, Agrarna Reforma i Kolonizacija na Kosovu 1918-1941, Institut za Istoriju Kosova, Priština (1981) be considered as further reading when it doesn’t talk about Second World War, or Waffen SS. As its title said it covers historical period before the division was founded.

Second, how this source Haroey Samer, Rescue In Albania: One Hundred Percent Of Jews In Albania Rescued From Holocaust, Brunswick Press, California (1997) relate to the article when it covers rescue of the Jews in Albania. The division was formed in Kosovo, from Kosovo Albanians and it didn’t participate in rescuing the Jews.

Third this article The Jews, the Serbs, and the Truth by Stephen Schwartz talks about Serbs and Jews, not about Kosovo, Waffen SS, Albanians or anything else that has connection to this article.

I suggest that these books and article should be deleted from the chapter further reading since no other article about SS divisions has such a diversity of unrelated sources and references. --Marko M 12:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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I removed the link to an article on frontpagemag.com because I found another which is more precise. The article claimed that SS Skanderbeg turned 210 Jews to Nazis, which is oversimplification because, as the more detailed Serbianna article shows, 281 Jews were turned of which 210 were killed. Nikola 23:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

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"I removed the link to an article on frontpagemag.com because I found another which is more precise." You print it from Serbianna, and you call that precise? Keep it Fake (talk) 01:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

POV -sources

Article states "In Kosovo, the division embarked on ethnic cleansing of the Serbs and other non-Albanians." and gives two sources. Unfortunately, both of them ([2], [3]) are extremely non-neutral pro-Serbian pages. Article should really has more neutral sources for such a strong claim. BTW: The fact that this was a SS-division doesn't necessarily mean it did ethnic cleaning or other heavy human rights violations (allthought chances may be good it did). For example a SS-battalion formed from Finnish volunteers haven't been connected to human rights violations. --ML (talk) 16:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Use of sources

I have added a POV template because the sources used in the article are all Serbian and we do not know if the information provided in the sources is accurate. With the Albanian- Serbian conflict still going on, I believe many of the sources used in the article are not neutral and they were written for propaganda purposes. The whole article should be rewritten based on neutral sources and not on articles written by biased Serbian self-declared historians. --Noah30 (talk) 07:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

-- One needs to read what this character Savich (a Serb nationalist), who calls himself a historian writes: "The uniforms and the acronyms have changed from the Waffen SS to NATO and the political sponsors have changed from Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini and Heinrich Himmler to Bill Clinton and Tony Blair and Madeleine Albright, but the Greater Albania ideology remains exactly the same, identical to that enunciated by the 1943 Second League of Prizren, and the 1878 First League of Prizren." http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/July_23/2.html

Should he be used as a source?

Keep it Fake (talk) 01:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

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On the Serb site this is the text: (notice how it starts with an inflammatory headline only to show that Jews is Serbia had it much worst. Did they cut and paste too fast?)

"Albanian extremists target the Jews of Kosovo

At the beginning of the second world war, Kosovo had a population of 550 Jews. Altogether, 210 perished in German concentration camps - the only Jews to be killed in the war in Kosovo - representing 38.18% of the Jewish population. This compares with Belgrade, were only 1,115 survived the war out of almost 12,000 (9%), and Croatia, where an estimated 25% of the Jewish population survived. Thus, you were more likely to survive the war if you were Jewish and lived in Albania or Kosovo rather than Belgrade or Croatia. However, this is not to say that it was any easier for Jews, Roma or Slavs - the three national groups designated by the Nazi's as "subhuman races", and top of their list for extermination or deportation by the Nazis or their quislings in Croatia, Serbia and Kosovo.

In fact, one of the first acts of the SS Skanderbeg division in April 1944 was the arresting of 281 Jews in Pristina, and "510 Jews, Communists, Partisans and individual suspects". According to Bernard J. Fischer, writing in Albania at War, 1939-1945 (Purdue University Press, West Lafayette, Indians, USA, 1999, p. 187). All 281 Jews were deported to Germany - probably to Bergen-Belsen death camp. However, the German occupation authorities allowed Albania an unusual degree of autonomy and, for the most part, refrained from deporting and/or murdering the majority of Albanian Jews. Most of the tiny Jewish population of "old Albania" (about 200) survived the Holocaust. The Germans, however, confiscated most Jewish-owned property in 1943-1944."

This entire article is based on Carl Savich--a known Serb apologist--and this .yu site. I will post a check for accuracy tag as well. If true, they should state the fact and where they got the info from; throwing numbers around in a politically sensitive topic to make one side look bad should not be allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 07:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

reverts

Could someone at least clarify why the sourced info here is removed? I am certainly not trying to defend the SS or the Albanians, but good reasons must be named for the removal of referenced info. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The references promote a common misconception. The colonization program was unsuccessful, and nearly all colonized families were forced out of Kosovo before WWII started. Serbs who were killed or forced out of Kosovo by SS Skanderbeg were indigenous Serb population, not the colonists. Nikola (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really Nikola. Why did Tito pass the law NOT to allow settlers to come back? Who forced them out before WWII??? Because they were there and thrown out. The colonization failed because Albanians had more children and settlers didn't change the numbers that much. See "The Expulsion of Albanians" or this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fnbw1wsacSAC&pg=PA191&dq=serb+settlers+wwii+kosovo+italians&sig=_-xAaonJ7rOR7SDQ31mFEgTLwEA

http://books.google.com/books?id=GghxFpyBH7MC&pg=PA144&dq=serb+settlers+wwii+kosovo+italians+serbian&sig=Fcvk0F57-3J5X26IFLqta8GYbS8

(after talking about land confiscation from Albanians and driving out 50K Albanians she states) "The tables were turned during WWII...(ejected an estimated 70K) of the newly arrived settlers"

Let's not play games. I know and you know, the didn't give a rats @ss about Nazis, just as Chetniks didn't. Keep it Fake (talk) 15:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC) ok I understand, that should be included and explained, but the sources are not biased (at first glance), and the removal of the quotes is against Wiki policy. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources missing

Ok, where can I find the sources, especially for the last paragraph? I am putting this article on the notice board.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 11:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello all. I hope that we can keep this peaceful. Some are concerned that the article is too -- aggressive -- for lack of a better word. I however believe it omits a lot. Although this is not a neutral source, and for some may not be credible, please see the "Mike Savage discusses Kosovo" video on YouTube. The beginning discusses the 21st SS division. I believe that it is important to keep accuracy in history. I also want to note that there is NO nation that doesn't have it's blemishes. Signed: Mira, 11:36, 07 July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirakres (talk • contribs)

Hoax and propaganda

"SS Skanderbeg" was formed from a Albanian battalion from SS Handzar with only few houndred soldiers, they tried forced recruition but they failed because all true Albanian patriots were anti nazi, all those numbers with 5000 soldiers or more are all false.

After the war Jugoslavian propaganda first said that the number of this division was 40000, then after this number seemed ridiculous they changed the number to 10000, now it is from 1500 to 5000. While there exist many photos from all other SS divisions even of Serbian SS soldiers, there are no photos of "SS Skanderbeg" the few ones that are supposed to be from "SS Skanderbeg" are either false or presumed.