Talk:Northeastern United States/Archive 2

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Editing

Can someone edit this page? It seems to have been vandalised..."hello sexy" is throughout the page.

Virginia and Maryland are DEFINITELY NOT part of the Northeast. Virginia is part of the Southeast, and Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic state, or border state between North and South. I wouldnt consider D.C. part of the northeast either.

• I disagree, at least with regard to Washington, DC. Though its culture certainly has roots in the South, it is the southern boundary of the BosWash ubermetropolitan area and thus also has a strong connexion with the Northeast.

This page is incredibly poorly written. It needs a lot of help. 69.142.76.165 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes

Native Americans

I fully realize that this is about the official US designation of "New England." But that there is no reference to the Native Americans is quite appalling, not even to mention that many of the names of our states and towns are Indian names. History here begins with the colonials as if everything was tabla rasa.Brosi (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Language, ethnicity, and religion

The tone/quality of this section is pretty good. The problem is that there have been a lot of contributions with slightly different slants, some geographic, others, origin. It really needs to be reorganized somehow. The problem (as you might guess) is there are a heck of a lot of ethnicities to deal with! A bit of a mess right now IMO. Maybe even repetitive or slightly contradictory. There's always "whoops. Forgot these six people from Tibet and eight Aleuts." Don't want to omit anybody. I think conciseness is important here. Accounting for every group in the world is just not possible nor desirable. Student7 (talk) 20:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a statement that Catholics are a "plurality" in the Northeast. This used to be true. In Vermont in 2007, "no religion" came in first ahead of any other religion, including Catholicism. So the general statement is not quite on the money anymore.Student7 (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Voting patterns

It's been a long while since any president got more than 50% of the vote of registered voters. I don't think it happened nationwide in 2008, though selected areas and municipalities may have achieved this. Most regions of the country cannot claim to have captured the "hearts and minds" of the majority of registered voters in it, except maybe Washington DC. So extravagant comments should be avoided IMO.

The main thing the vote shows is the demise of the party system. Student7 (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Overuse of the word "many"

This article, out of many, wins the award, for overuse of the vague "many" used many times without many footnotes. Usually without any footnotes. As an attention grabber it fails from overuse. Many editors should not be trying to "grab" attention IMO. Many footnotes should be used so many readers can draw many conclusions on their own!  :) Student7 (talk) 11:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is Virginia shaded?

Why? The Census has never included VA in the northeast, the EPA never has, AAA never has. Why is Virginia shaded?--Htgrgwwew (talk) 04:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I was about to ask the same question myself. Not even the article claims Virginia is part of the Northeast. It seems that whoever made the map took liberties in applying his own idiosyncratic views. 69.228.104.168 (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Invasion

Zebra Mussels are invading the northeast —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.251.250 (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio

It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast. What's the big deal? I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast. Ohio is certainly a mid-western state. Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast. The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Northeast megalopolis extends through Washington D.C. or even Richmond according to the recent Virginia Tech studies (see megapolitan area) in spite of the difference with traditional cultural definitions. On the other hand, western Pennsylvania and New York are closer to the Midwest in urban connectivity and dialect. (e.g. Inland Northern American English) So the best definition depends on what field you are talking about. --JWB (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I respect your viewpoint, but I must argue that you're pulling at strings. I believe that even taking into account abstract ideas such as "megapolitan areas," most people would not consider cities in southern states, like Richmond, are part of the northeast while western Pennsylvania and New York are mid-western. Upon further thinking, I would actually argue to include Delaware in the northeast region, because it is considered above the Mason-Dixon Line, which has traditionally symbolized a demarcation between the Northern United States and the Southern United States. Again, I could see an argument being made for Maryland, but Virginia is definitely southern-Atlantic. Also, I cannot agree that New York or Pennsylvania could be considered mid-western, especially when Missouri is often considered central mid-west.Xfatmoe (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Megapolitan areas are not "abstract ideas" but rather very concrete analyses of the movement of goods and people within a given area. Even more to the point, if you've lived in and traveled around the Northeast Megalopolis you would know that there are no clear lines where one metro ends and another begins. Trying to separate Baltimore and DC from Philadelphia and NYC is more ludicrous than trying to say that San Diego and LA are in different regions. In any case, I'm not sure what bearing a cultural survey taken 250 years ago (mason-dixon) to delineate attitudes toward slavery has to do with the present day economic and cultural realities. It was done well before the fall of slavery, before the industrial revolution, before the advent of high-speed rail, automobiles and the interstate highway system. Likewise, what does it matter what the Census says about it? The FBI and EPA say something different. The also think that the Virgin Islands are part of the Northeast. Western PA and Western NY have far more in common, culturally and economically, with Ohio and with each other than they do with NYC or Philadelphia. Delaware is clearly part of the Northeast. People there watch TV broadcast from Philadelphia, listen to a lot of radio from Philadelphia, have commuter trains to Philadelphia and New Castle County, where most Delawareans live, is part of the Philadelphia MSA. Metro Baltimore and metro DC, where most Marylanders live, is inextricably linked to the rest of the mid-atlantic. Anyone who has driven on I-95 or taken Amtrak or Megabus or Boltbus or any of the Chinatown buses is acutely aware of this. Even for the best of ears, trying to distinguish a South Jersey accent from a Maryland accent can be impossible. Ancient maps and ideas are just that. The flow of goods and people is what matters and by any measure DE and MD are linked to the northeast much more than to the southeast. While one can make persuasive arguments that parts of Western MD and the Eastern Shore are more culturally southern one can also make persuasive arguments that Northern Virginia counties such as Arlington, Fairfax, Loudon, etc are more culturally mid-atlantic. `69.142.76.165 (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC) JRes

I always find this amusing. To me Northeast is synonymous with New England. In other words, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut. If I'm feeling charitable I include New York. Nothing south of New York should be called "North" anything IMHO. That being said, it doesn't really matter what our opinions are, as North East is an established region per the U.S. Census Bureau.

Mattlach (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Maryland is definitely a part of the Northeast. I'm getting sick of the Mason-Dixon line being the end all say all on the division between the two regions. The line was made in the 1700's and was more about a boundary dispute between MD and PA! How is that relative or useful to todays society? Baltimore and Philadelphia are always linked together as very similar cities - and I agree with above - Philly, Baltimore, and S. Jersey dialects are almost identical. If you want to make this article about the census designation, then fine, but take Delaware off the map too. I'm sorry the Eastern Shore of MD has farms, but this doesn't make Maryland a southern state. The culture/geography of the Eastern shore is very tightly similar to rural DE and NJ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.22.116 (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The culture of the Eastern Shore is NOTHING like the culture of South Jersey! That is such a ridiculous statement and you have destroyed your credibility. I would like to invite everyone reading to take a trip to Maryland's Eastern shore - spend some time in Harriet Tubman's hometown of Cambridge and perhaps enjoy some crabbing in Crisfield. Then, feel free to explore South Jersey and let me know if the Eastern Shore of Maryland is "Northern". What a ridiculous comment. I am someone who has lived on Maryland's Eastern Shore my whole life and if you came here, I, along with everyone else here, would laugh in your face.

There was never an argument being made for the region of South Jersey to be likened to Maryland's Eastern shore. The term "South Jersey" was specifically NOT used as it encompasses far too large of an area and diversity in culture. When people think South Jersey, they think Philly suburbs and Atlantic City - that is not what I was referencing. The term "rural Jersey" was the intended message. I grew up in St. Micheals and have found that driving down towards Cape May in Jersey is very similar to a trip down Route 50 through Talbot and Dorcester counties - farmlands, marshlands, simple, laid back, and some similar coastal towns. Obviously, nothing compares directly to Chesapeake culture - it's highly unique and precious and I would never pin it as either southern or northern - it is what it is. I agree with you that at first glance the remark "The eastern shore of Maryland is like South Jersey" is a little ridiculous - please remember that was never my argument. However, if I wanted to make that argument, it wouldn't be too difficult - in addition to everything I've already said, Cecil County is a part of the Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical area, suburb of Philly, as are parts of south Jersey that border on rural areas much like those of the Eastern shore - you'd be surprised how similar Elkton is to other S. Jersey towns, not to mention the South Jersey Shore being just like the stretch from Ocean City, MD up through Rehoboth and Bethany - not a fantastic argument, and I probably wouldn't make it, but it could be done. (You didn't bring this up, but for the record, the argument that Delaware and Maryland's Eastern shore are not similar simply cannot be made, Delmarva is Delmarva - obviously less populated as you get down into the Virginia part, but still pretty consistent.) I apologize if I offended you, there is pretty much nothing that can be like the old waterman towns like Tilghman's Island or Deal Island or the dissapearing marshlands of Dorchester county. Places like Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michael's, even up in Chestertown are uniquely Maryland/Chesapeake and I never meant to take away from that. I simply meant to propose the question of why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 01:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Well worded argument. I was the poster of the previous argument before it. But, it is exactly one of the last points you made about the unique qualities of watermen's towns and Chesapeake culture that I was getting at. This is something unique and something treasured by my people. It is sad to see much of the development and loss of tradition as the years go by. That said, the Chesapeake culture that you speak of is actually an important part of SOUTHERN culture. And people around here do not like to be told otherwise. Especially myself, who resides a few miles from Harriet Tubman's birth site. Parts of Maryland, along the I-95 corridor are Northeast - but that is because our Chesapeake culture is being eroded, and, therefore, Southern tradition. It is much easier for the tradition and culture to bleed southward from an industrialized, highly-populated place like the Northeast, than it is for rural and Southern culture to bleed northward from sparsely populated regions. Maryland and Maryland tradition is Southern, so I will vehemently disagree with you there. Your original assertion about people believing the Eastern Shore of Maryland is southern just because it is rural is false. History (and the culture of natives in current times!) proves that assertion wrong. South central Pennsylvania is rural, yet nobody claims it is southern. The Eastern Shore of Maryland is a large area, and almost no one here thinks of Cecil County as the Eastern Shore. Central and Lower Eastern Shore is undeniably southern. Of course Cecil County appears not to be- it is a few miles from Philly and NJ! But you cannot argue the same for Cecil County the same as you can for Somerset. Also, it is undeniable that the Eastern Shore of Maryland is way more similar to the Eastern Shore of Virginia than it is to rural New Jersey. So, if you are going by association, the argument still does not hold water that MD's ES is Northeastern. The culture/geography of the Eastern Shore is more tightly linked to that of the Chesapeake areas of Virginia, and not to DE and NJ as you stated. That is for sure! You state that MD's ES is influenced by Delaware, a northern state in your view, yet you fail to recognize it is also influenced by Virginia, a southern state- the third part of DelmarVA. You state "why certain things like farmlands and low population density have to be indicative of a southern state when undeniably northern states less than 30 miles away have those things as well." When did I say the Eastern Shore is southern because of farmland and low population? Sure, that adds to making it more Southern, but I am arguing that it has SOUTHERN CULTURE (Chesapeake culture, the roots of slavery including the fields toiled by Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, Large Plantations still preserved throughout) and SOUTHERN LAND (The Chesapeake, Bald Cypress, Loblolly forests, etc.) In my opinion water doesn't hold trying to say that The Eastern Shore of Maryland has more in common with rural New Jersey (the north) than with Virginia (the south), of which it shares a the same landmass, delMARVA, and culture of the Chesapeake. The statement you made, therefore, "Maryland is definitely part of the northeast", is not credible.

Alright, I see your point and thank you for allowing me to clarify what I had said before. To clear up one more thing, I wasn't saying that YOU had said the rural aspect of Maryland's ES and low population density was why you thought it was southern - I was discussing my original reason for posting, and that is that A LOT of people go around saying "Maryland's Eastern Shore is southern because of how agricultural it is, etc." I don't enjoy that comment at all, it just sounds uneducated and ignorant. Again, I know that wasn't anything you had said. Also, I must say that I was not surprised when I saw you had written that most people on the Eastern Shore don't consider Cecil County a part of it - :-) I had anticipated that argument, and I kind of have to agree! hah! But it was worth a shot! It is definitely true that Maryland holds a lot in common with Virginia because of the Chesapeake. I am aware that that tie goes all the way back to Colonial times. Maryland and Virginia both were labeled Southern Colonies, but a special distinction for them was made as Chesapeake Colonies simply because it altered our economies dramatically from that of the north or the south, and I also agree with you that even today, we still have much in common with Virginia for this reason. There is no way to actually settle this debate simply because it hasn't been done for 200 years and it's not about to happen via wikipedia chat. In all honesty, I'm strongly in favor of the mid-atlantic label before anything else. I just don't like to be excluded from the Northeast simply because people let the Eastern Shore represent us. And vice versa, I'm sure the ES doesn't like to be excluded from the Southeast simply because people let Baltimore represent the state. My supporting arguments for Maryland being the Northeast do not lie within the ES being a Northeastern region - I only wanted to say that it shouldn't be the reason why we're excluded because plenty of Northeastern States have their equivalents of "Eastern Shores", or things and cultures that are southern. I disagree with you by saying that nobody claims south central PA as southern, because people most certainly do. Given it is usually rednecks, but I've seen it - the confederate flag flying high and everything - no one ever argues it though because Pennsylvania has never been up for debate. I lived in South Carolina for four years and I must say, THAT is southern in ways that neither Maryland or Virginia are. I also discovered that that part of the south (NC down), doesn't really want us. I've found that a lot of southerners are beginning to disown Virginia as well. However, the same argument goes in reverse - once you begin to get up to the New York area, no one there will claim Maryland as part of the North. I suppose in Maryland, if you're a yankee or a southerner is your own personal choice - you can make an argument for yourself either way. I'm very proud of Maryland's diversity and our dispositions. I've read before that a large consensus in Maryland during the civil war was that they didn't like the South seceding, but also didn't like the North's attitude towards the South. Talk about level-headed and well thought out. I just don't think it's fair to ignore Maryland's ties with the Northeast simply because it also has ties with parts of the South, and I suppose vice versa. I apologize that this wasn't as organized and thought out as well as my previous post. Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and the opportunity to redeem myself and not appear completely insane! Any Marylander is a friend of mine. :-)

This has been a great chat - and very productive! Sane points have been made by us both. I agree with you though - whenever I was in school and whenever I had to say a "region", I would say Mid-Atlantic. I think there are two Mid-Atlantics: the census-defined region which is a subset of the Northeast (NY, NJ, PA) or the colloquial one that makes more sense to me VA, DC, MD, DE, PA (NJ & New York has always been Northeast to me. In my family it has always been that when someone said someone was a Yankee or from the "northeast" we would always think New York, or sometimes Massachusetts). I would say that Virginia and Maryland add the Southern influences, PA and DE a more neutral transition zone, and NJ and NY add the true "Yankee" influences. Taken as one, it really is a transition zone, with Pennsylvania doing a good job at being the center of this cultural variation. I have spent a large amount of time in the true Northeast and it seems you have spent a good amount of time in the Deep South - so I believe that gives us our individual opinions to which region MD is more closely tied. I can see that parts of the state are more northern-influenced, and parts are more southern-influenced and I am glad most people just say Mid-Atlantic because I'd like to think we have the best of both regions! Can't wait for crabbin season to come into full bloom : p Hope we have a higher yield this year!

Me too, man, me too! I just got a new fishing boat that I'm fixing up and I can't wait to get out there. I'm also ready for some crab feasts. And I agree, this was a great conversation. I really like hearing opinions from other Marylanders that actually care about this topic and have researched it. I really am tired of hearing, "Maryland is the south because we're below the mason-dixon line". That immediately tells me that person knows one simple rule-of-thumb history fact and they haven't cared to research it beyond that. Same with, "Maryland is the north because we stayed with the Union." Those remarks aren't what someone thinks, it's just what they've been told and I have no interest in it. Anyway, just out of curiosity - what town are you from and what is your dialect? I spent a lot of time in St. Michael's growing up and other Eastern Shore places (my Dad and I used to take trips all over there and go fishing), but I actually lived most of my life in Anne Arundel County, south of Bmore and north of Annapolis. To say the least, I'm fluent in Baltimorese, which most of the time I'm proud of and other times, well, not so proud of - hah! The other part of Maryland we haven't discussed at all is Western. I know it's a whole other monster, one of which I know least about, but from what I've gathered they embody the Appalachian culture and Garrett and Alleghany counties have a pretty strong affinity towards Pittsburgh - seeing as how it's only 90 some miles away in some places. Thoughts? And yeah, we do have the best of both worlds, the greatest state in the nation - easily.

I am originally from Baltimore, spent summers on the Shore with my grandparents in Crisfield and I live not far from Cambridge (for the past 20 years). I work in Annapolis - so I wouldn't say I have a specific regional dialect from an area of MD - moreso a hodgepodge of Baltimore & Eastern Shore tidewater. My brother has a very thick Baltimore accent that I can hear and identify, after him being there all 32 years of his life & I guess I can hear it because of living over here for so long. I think in MD regardless of region, all natives are pretty much guaranteed to pronounce long "O"s - I'm sure you know what I mean by that. I really have no experience whatsoever with Western MD - I couldn't tell ya. My parents bought us camping someplace around Hagerstown back in the 80s, but I don't remember much - just the old trains. Anyone I've met from that area, though, tell me that there's really no discernible difference between Western Maryland and West Virginia. I am sure they all share a common culture of Appalachia with the nearby parts of PA. We do have the best state (so long as the suburban nightmare with transplants not interested in native MD culture doesn't spread from MoCo & Prince Georges) and I would be glad to argue it with any other state because we have everything I can think of, with the exception of desert - which I believe is a welcomed omission : p

Honestly, I'm thrilled that D.C. is so close and accessible - you know how that is, it's really cool and is an awesome place to take guests that are visiting. However, I DO NOT like what it is doing to the area and the culture. When I'm away on a trip for whatever reason - I will sometimes, by chance, meet a stranger from Maryland and inquire as to what part they are from. If they reply with "Bethesda" or "Greenbelt" or "Rockville", etc. - I usually say, "No, no, no, - you're from D.C. - that's not Maryland." It's just not. And it's unfortunate because D.C.'s sprawl and growth is having a bigger and bigger effect every year on the surrounding area. I'm very worried about Anne Arundel county becoming much like PG and MoCo. Baltimore really needs to pull itself together in the next decade here or else that city will fall into shadow underneath D.C., much like Wilmington, DE did under Philly. If there isn't an influence to counteract D.C.'s growth, then the entire western shore of Maryland will eventually be one giant suburb of D.C. I know Virginians feel the same way about Alexandria/Arlington - the growth is out of control. And yes, I know exactly what you mean by the, not only long, but frontal/nasal "O"! :-) In my experience, I've heard that nasal "O" sound all the way from the Norfolk/Chesapeake area of VA up to Philly and some of south Jersey - William Labov at UPenn actually attributed it to what he calls a part of the "mid atlantic dialect". How appropriate :-). You commute all the way from Dorchester to Annapolis each day? Please tell me you do it by boat - hah!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.197 (talk) 07:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

To those who claim that Pittsburgh has far more in common with the Midwest than the rest of the Northeast, I must respectfully disagree. Many studies including this one from Gastil put Pittsburgh in the same cultural region as South Jersey http://faculty.smu.edu/RKEMPER/anth_3346/ANTH3346_Maps.htm#GASTIL%20NORTHEASTERN%20CULTURAL%20REGIONS. Additionally, the prevalence of row housing in Pittsburgh is a staple of the older coastal cities, including Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC. The very large percentage of Italians (about 16% in the CSA), Catholics and lack of Evangelicals in Pittsburgh, in addition to traditional connections to Philadelphia (e.g. PA canal, Steagles, Pirates-Phillies and Pens-Flyers rivalry) again offer significant evidence that Pittsburgh is more Northeastern. Concerning language issues, most who have studied the Pittsburgh accent recognize that it is more in common with "Highland Southern" accent of W. VA. and other areas of Appalachia than with Midwest (as though either the Midwest or Northeast is a homogeneous region in that respect is absurd). Yet, certain words such as "hoagie" are commonly used in Pittsburgh, Phila. and NJ, but rarely in other parts of the country. Anyone who thinks Pittsburgh is clearly Midwestern should provide actual examples of this and not merely state opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.249.116 (talk) 01:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Major cleanup needed

This article is full of unsourced assertion, opinion, and peacock language. I propose that this article should focus on the census bureau definition (so that statistics can be validated), possibly with some reference to nearby areas that some claim are part of the region (if sourced). Then we can cut down all of the opinion and leave only the statistics and facts that are sourced. Editors can add new sections when they have the RSs to support them. Anybody have thoughts on this? Hoppingalong (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

As part of the cleanup, I propose removing the third paragraph in the lead as irrlevant, original research, and not properly sourced. Here it is:

Other states are sometimes included in the definition of Northeastern United States. The International Nuclear Safety Center included on a map of nuclear reactors in the Northeastern United States those reactors that are located in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Ohio, Michigan, and Ontario, Canada.[6] The National Assessment Synthesis Team of the U.S. Global Change Research Program included West Virginia and Maryland in the Northeastern United States in its analysis of climate change in a 2001 report.[7] The same report included Virginia in the Southeastern United States.[8] In a 1961 book, French geographer Jean Gottman described what he called the Northeast megalopolis to include as far south as Washington, D.C. within the megalopolis, though he did not define the Northeastern United States.[9] The Census Bureau classifies Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, as part of the South Atlantic region,[1] part of the Southern United States.

Hoppingalong (talk) 22:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I just removed the paragrph in this edit per this proposal and, in addition, because of the various other objections to including these states on the talk page above. The map is still shaded and should be changed. Hoppingalong (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Non-consensus? Seriously? Your decisions to chop out all the disputed states from the article had [WP:DRNC|equally no consensus]]. As I stated in an edit summary, Wikipedia should be a neutral source of information and should explain the disputed point at which the northeast becomes the south, not just make the Census Bureau the end-all, be-all authority over the article. Different government agencies can't even come to a consensus on where the northeast ends!

If you revert an edit because I need to "discuss first" before editing and can't give a specific reason as to why you reverted, you might be unintentionally owning the article. …Grayshi ^{talk ■ my contribs} 17:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Read this talk page. Looks at the edits made by several editors since and while I was working this material. The paragraph I removed with this edit doesn't even support your desired inclusion of certain states, unless you want to systhesize the various souces that use different definitions (which is OR). Find RS sources that talk about this "dispute" and let's talk about them here. Hoppingalong (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)