Talk:Stormfront (website)

What does this sentence mean?

"Stormfront has been the subject of controversy after being removed from French and German Google indexes, for targeting an online FOX News poll on racial segregation, and for having as one of its members a candidate for political office from a major political party." Is it suggesting that Google pulled this site from it's index for "for having as one of its members a candidate for political office from a major political party"? That doesn't really make sense. e.g. Most politicians seem to have their websites indexed by Google. Some clarification would be nice. (It also seems like the grammar of the sentence could be reworked)... Ok, I get it now. It still seems like it could lead to some confusion :) Setitup (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit war

I'm seeing an edit war going on between Jpgordon and an IP user here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stormfront_(website)&diff=351267597&oldid=351262331 . I'm in agreement with the IP user. The edit of the IP user has the sentence read less subjectively and more objectively. 65.31.103.28 (talk) 07:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

As a fan of WP:AVOID and hating hippies, I see what you are saying. In regards to your edit summary though, it is his personal take on things. There is also a similar thing up above that is not addressed "The site received considerable attention in the United States, such as in Hate.com, a 2000 CBS/HBO documentary television special which focused on the perceived threat of white nationalist and white supremacist organisations on the Internet." So if you want to fix both that is something to consider. If not w"hat he considers" means the same thing but might be less shocking semantically since it further addresses it being attributed to him.Cptnono (talk) 07:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Edit war? The IP made a change. JPGordon reverted it. That's it. "Edit war" seems a bit alarmist. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Err... I must have misread the reversions. I thought Jpgordon was reverting the edit to 'the' from 'perceived' but it was actually the IP user that was doing that and vandalizing the article. My apologies all. 65.31.103.28 (talk) 18:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Error when trying to preview

I get an error when trying to preview changes to the entire article page, but not if I am only previewing a section. This makes it impossible to change the intro. Lumenos (talk) 03:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this possibly related to supposed service outages that are being "reported" here -> http://www.ezyang.com/wikistatus/ ? Lumenos (talk) 03:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

This Page is biased

Hey, not sure if you guys noticed but the SPLC is not a neutral source. They are on opposite sides of the idealogical spectrum and have clear and obvious reliability issues when it comes to being biased/unbiased. ~D2525 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.120.205 (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if you noticed, but saying the SPLC is not a reliable source on the subject of Stormfront is a little like saying the FBI is not a reliable source on Dillinger. It has no reliability issues at all on this subject and if you think it does, you'll have to show an example of something they got wrong. There's no reason not to use that source in this article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

That's like saying that the United Kingdom is a racist country because different peoples views are allowed and free to be aired (at least for now...). Whether or not Black was a KKK member etc etc etc is irrelivent, that's like saying that because a criminal sets up a forum discussing crime, that it's a site that JUST promotes crime.

The fact that there are lots of citations calling Stormfront a Nazi organisation and such is also a ridiculous reason for Wikipedia to state such an idea as fact, rather than the article being written as: "many organisations consider Stormfront racist... etc". If lots of Nazis, KKK members, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, or whoever, made websites and statements online claiming that a Jewish forum was a Semite supremacy website would that mean Wikipedia would state that as fact aswell?

There are pleanty of citations that state Golliwogs and other visual stereotypes as racist; that doesn't make such accusations fact.

If there were 18 citations saying/suggeting Adolf Hitler was a nice guy, would Wikipedia start off the article saying "Adolf Hitler was a nice Austrian bloke who loved his dog Blondi."? No? I didn't think so.

Having been on Stormfront to read some bitsnbobs a while back, I can say that it is full of Nazis and other such people; however, not everyone on there is, as far as I'm aware; nor does the site itself actively promote such things - Black, moderators and other members may, but to say Stormfront is a Nazi site is like saying Islam is against freedom, despite there being pleanty of Muslims who aren't. People are individuals: there are people on Stormfront who are just members because they hate the double standards that work against white people in todays Western societies; I expect this article is included in their lists of such doublethinks. --Kurtle (talk) 14:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is by asking a rhetorical question about Hitler. The question is clearly irrelevant. I think it's pretty clear if you've read Stormfront that it is a neo-Nazi website. You admit that it's full of neo-Nazi's. Just because the administration is careful about trying not to look like a hate site doesn't mean that they don't advocate neo-Nazi ideology. Even if many of the stormfront posters hate what they consider double-standards, that doesn't change the primary vision and ideology of the website. It's very obvious that most of the posters there dislike people who are non-white, want to maintain geographically separate borders for non-whites, blame the "decay" of western civilization on non-white, admire Adolf Hitler and the Nazi's (you can find discussions where the mention how the swastika makes them proud of what white people can do and fills them with hope), etc. It's clearly a gathering place for people who adhere to neo-Nazi ideology. Even if not everyone there would consider themself a neo-Nazi, that doesn't change what clearly is the main attraction of Strormfront for its members. Yes, people are individuals, but the article isn't about exceptions to the rule. It's about the website and it attracts people for its neo-Nazi ideologies. I don't see how you can deny that. 74.13.3.57 (talk) 23:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC) Not logged in.

Great reason why Wikipedia is a terrible website anymore

There are lists "proving" it a hate/neo-nazi website yet these "sources" fail to qualify their accusations. Think about it. When you go to SF it alleges to be a "White Nationalist" website. That is from the horse's mouth. But what about neo-nazi? SF never claimed it, some of the member are neo-nazis but not only are they not the majority there are others who condemn them who are white NATIONALISTS. At the very mosts it is a white nationalist website with members who are neo-nazis. At most. And ADL sources; seriously? We'll talk about neutrality on Wikipedia all the time but that's because most of the time it works for us.

Seriously, if we can't be honest when writing these articles what is the point of Wikipedia? Answer: there is none. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.148.43 (talk) 23:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You might have a point is we were basing it on the ADL. But we're basing it on the SPLC, the Univ. of AZ, the Daily Telegraph etc. Niteshift36 (talk)

The IP still has a point. WP:LABEL is a problem on this and other articles. Why do we need to apply a contentious label in the first sentence? There is no argument that it is white nationalist (from what I can tell) so that is fine. However, neo-nazi is disputed. We also all know that the media has a tendency to be sensationalist and does not have Wikipedia's strict and needed neutrality standards. An easy fix is to have the second line in the lead be "It is often described as a neo-nazi..." or something. Then Wikipedia would not be applying the label but giving the description the prominence it deserves.Cptnono (talk) 06:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

This as been discussed at great length. The overwhelming consensus was what we currently have. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

And people keep on complaining about it so it is a good thing that consensus can change. Can you provide a policy based reasoning on the label to be applied in the first line instead of being handle slightly different in the second line?Cptnono (talk) 20:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Since Stormfront doesn't openly admit that they're a neo-Nazi website you think that all of Wikipedia sucks.? That's just idiotic. Stormfront won't acknowledge that they obviously love Nazism because they fear repercussions. How do you justify saying that it's "at the very most a white nationalist website with members who are neo-nazis??" You object to this article claiming that Stormfront is a neo-nazi website even when it can cite references backing that claim up, yet I sincerely doubt that you could justify your assertion that any particular member of Stormfront is a neo-nazi. The website appeals to neo-Nazi's for a reason: the beliefs and ideas exchanged on Stormfront are consistent with Nazism. Stormfront denies being neo-nazi because that would be bad for their already poor public image (see for example, Warman v. Kouba, 2006 CHRT 50 - 2006-11-22 - Canadian Human Rights Tribunal — Federal: one poster talks about how he doesn't want white nationalism publicly associated with neo-nazism). Stormfront has an entire forum dedicated to "revision" - that is, the discussion about how the holocaust (allegedly) didn't happen. You'll find many of these discussions involve obvious admiration of Hitler's desire to get Jews off "Aryan" lands and how the holocaust was really a hoax and is an example of the kind of lies and deception that Hitler knew the jews were capable of and used to manipulate world politics. In particular, the *obvious* admiration of Adolf Hitler and the ideals of the Nazi regime expressed by many posters on stormfront is the best evidence that Stormfront is a neo-nazi website (I think it is OBVIOUS to anyone who reads the site that it is a neo-nazi website - how anyone can try denying this is beyond me). People post on Stormfront regularly because they identify with others who post there and like you said, many of those who post there are neo-nazis. That's precisely the reason that they're posting on the site: they want to talk with other neo-nazis and talk about how bad the jews are or how blacks are ruining civilization. To say that Wikipedia is a bad resource because of the claim that Stormfront is a neo-nazi website really just suggests that you would also rather not have "white nationalism" associated publicly with neo-nazism. I'm curious, you claim that the "sources" (there is no reason to put sources in quotes, they ARE sources) don't "prove" that Stormfront is a neo-nazi website. Have you looked at absolutely everything on those sites? 74.13.3.57 (talk) 23:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC) A white guy who's ashamed of the idiots at Stormfront.

The label is one thing, (clearly, clearly racist), but there are conditions which must be met to be neo-nazi. As far as adherence to nationalistic socialism, anti-communist sentiment, fascistic ideologies, or anti-capitalism, the question should be whether or not the contributions that make up the forum are supportive of those ideas. I don't know that they are or are not, but if I had to guess, it's probably just some racist people saying racist things, with very few posts outlining the problems of capitalist structures. Racism in itself is not NSDAP, and even a claim to NSDAP affiliation cannot simply be taken as proof. That second part has two connotations, both that if I were to claim neo-nazi membership, it wouldn't just be valid in virtue of the claim, but would require some kind of evidence, AND that if the SPLC claims it, it isn't true just because they've said it. The SPLC happens to be very on the ball, so I imagine if they've claimed it, it wasn't out of the blue. Can anyone direct me to evidence of genuine Nazi components of belief? I don't doubt that they exist, but both sides seem to be looking for this. It's potentially in these many pages of history here...137.99.147.184 (talk) 02:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

As Wikipedia editors, our job is just to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. We should not make determinations based on our own theories. that said: [1].   Will Beback  talk  03:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if this is continuing to come up it is still a problem. Good thing we have an easy solution. Too bad established editors don't want to implement it.Cptnono (talk) 07:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Which solution? Niteshift36 (talk) 13:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Removing it as a label in the first line and spelling it out clearly in the second line. This is inline with WP:LABEL. Cptnono (talk) 20:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's really an ongoing problem with the article. I think what's fairly obvious is that we have an occasional neo-Nazi visiting this talk page as an IP and claiming the he and his neo-Nazi friends are not really neo-Nazis. Best way to respond to that is to do nothing. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a neo-nazi and I see a problem with it. I kind of feel for those guys in this circumstance since their socially unacceptable beliefs causes Wikipedia editors to disregard NPOV (again, see LABEL). This isn't the only article it has been a problem on.Cptnono (talk) 03:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think WP:NPOV actually supports you in this case. As far as I know, there are no reliable sources that dispute these descriptions/labels. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Then "use in-text attribution" is required per that guideline. But instead: There is no dispute that it is white nationalist. However, if the site denies that it is the other two then there is no reason to apply the label like that. Simply say "Stormfront is a white nationalist Internet forum. It is often considered white-supremacist and neo-Nazi." There is zero way anyone can dispute that line.Cptnono (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"In-text attribution" is forbidden here, because it would imply "apparent parity between the supermajority view and a tiny minority". See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Explanation of the neutral point of view . And practically speaking it would be ridiculous anyway. Would you write "According to source1, source2, source3, source4, source5, source6, source7, source8, source9, source10, source11 and source12, Stormfront is white supremacist"? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In text attribution would be ridiculous but it would actually be inline with the standards. Alternatively, it could be simply written as "It is often called...". It would address the concern below. It keeps on coming up when it is an easy fix.Cptnono (talk) 04:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

This is one of the worst articles on Wikipedia

I'm no fan of Stormfront, but the rampant POV and editorializing presented in this article shames us all. Does it really matter who considers Stormfront a white-supremacist or neo-nazi website? Does the fact that some reasonably prominent individuals hold this opinion of the website justify us including these OPINIONS as factual information in an encyclopedia? Yeah, i don't think so either. They claim to be a white-nationalist website, so that's obviously not in dispute, but they deny being white supremacist or neo-nazi. Perhaps the opening sentence should read along the lines of "X,Y,Z consider Stormfront to be a white supremacist website, etc." rather than "Stormfront IS a white supremacist website." This is just the tip of the iceberg however, the entire article is absolutely crawling with uncited editorials and original research. If this article can't be cleaned up, then it should really be a candidate for deletion. --24.179.209.239 (talk) 06:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it DOES matter who considers Stormfront to be supremacist or neo-nazi. Stormfront may not self-identify as such, but the forum meets the definitions and they are consistently described as such in the media. Playing the "Well, Stormfront doesn't say they are X" game would be shameful. A spade is a spade, even if it calls itself something else. The description is well-cited. If you have issues with other parts of the article, by all means be bold. But be sure to adhere to NPOV and verify. Glaucus (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"it DOES matter who considers Stormfront to be supremacist or neo-nazi." Um, forgive me, but no, no it doesn't. I also dispute your definition of "well cited." What you don't seem to understand is that this is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA. An encyclopedia's job is to report facts, not opinions. No matter how widely held those opinions may be. The definitions of white supremacist/nationalist and even neo-nazi are themselves the subject of much debate so it makes little sense to attempt to state that SF objectively "meets the definitions." Who's definition? Some people believe 'white nationalism' and 'white supremacy' are the same thing, others dispute this. The point is that this is all very murky and you'll have to do better than that to justify attaching these descriptions to the website as a statement of fact in an encyclopedia.--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It is a fact that the opinion of reliable sources is that Stormfront is neo-nazi. It's Wikipedia's job to report facts -- and the fact is, opinions exist and can be cited; and we're citing the generally held opinion that Stormfront is neo-nazi. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

That would be fine, so long as it's clear that what you're reporting is opinion. As of this moment that is not the case. The opening of this article states AS OBJECTIVE FACT that Stormfront is white supremacist and neo-nazi. I don't believe this can be justified for reasons I've already stated.--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The consensus of reliable sources is that Stormfront is neo-Nazi, white supremacist, and antisemitic. That's pretty much what Wikipedia considers to be a fact. Do you have any reliable sources that dispute this assessment? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Virtually every one of the "reliable sources" cited is an article in online news service or journal. This is all moot anyway because, as I have stated, the very definitions of these terms is highly controversial. I'd have no problem finding numerous reliable sources, or at least what wikipedia considers reliable sources, that disagree on the very definition of these terms. At the very least, this murkiness should be acknowledged in the article in some fashion. By the standard presented here, we would be justified in stating as objective fact that the Mona Lisa is a brilliant work of art. It would be no problem finding numerous "reliable sources" that consider the Mona Lisa to be a good/great painting. Does that justify opening the Mona Lisa article with "The Mona Lisa is an objectively fantastic work of art?" We could state that the Mona Lisa is a highly influential work, or we could state that the Mona Lisa is widely regarded as a fantastic work of art, but simply stating that the Mona Lisa IS a great work of art is obviously problematic for an encyclopedia--24.179.209.239 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• How does their being available online have any bearing on their reliability? The only people this is "murky" to seem to be IP editors with relatively few edits on unrelated topics. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The sources are not unreliable because they're online, they're unreliable because they're almost universally "special investigations" or editorials. This is all beside the point. As to the "murkiness" I point you to white nationalism. The entire article is devoted to the controversy surrounding the definition of the word. Can my fundamental complaint be addressed, and would anyone object strongly if i we're to reword to the opening paragraph to something along the lines of "SF is a white-nationalist website that is also widely regarded as supremacist/neo-nazi etc" and then cite the pre-existing references?

"Virtually every one of the "reliable sources" cited is an article in online news service or journal". First of all, if true, why would that matter? Moreover, it's simply not true; half the sources are printed books. In any event, Wikipedia relies on the consensus of reliable sources. Do you have any sources that dispute the fact that Stormfront is white supremacist and neo-Nazi? Please make sure any future responses include references to reliable sources about Stormfront that dispute these characterizations. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)