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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Outcast44 (talk | contribs) at 14:06, 14 December 2010 (→‎Angela Slatter: Added comment to clarify keep position). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Angela Slatter

Angela Slatter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Non-notable author lacking GHits and GNEWS of substance. Appears to fail WP:BIO and WP:CREATIVE. ttonyb (talk) 05:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - I believe the author qualifies under WP:BIO, specifically "# The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." Five Australian Science Fiction Award nominations. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 06:17, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Please let me know who you believe an expert in the field to be and I will get an answer from them. Suffice to say that the Ditmar and the Aurealis Awards are the two most important and respected Australian SF Achievement Awards. These awards are archived on Locus - a recognised source. How much more proof do you need? Punkrocker1991 (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From Locus http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/Ditmar.html "The Ditmar Awards are the Australian equivalent of the Hugos, given by members of the Australian National Science Fiction Convention for professional and fan works by Australians." These have been awarded since 1969.
http://www.locusmag.com/SFAwards/Db/Aurealis.html The Aurealis Awards are given to works of SF, fantasy, and horror by Australians. They differ from the Ditmar Awards by including young adult categories, omitting fan categories, and by being judged--in fact, there are separate judges for each division. These have been awarded since 1996.
  • Comment – The point I was trying to make was I am unfamiliar with the Australian awards listed. If you are saying they are adequate then, I can only assume they are. Assuming as such, the article will most likely survive the AfD.
  • Comment The Aurealis and the Ditmar are the two highest achievement awards that may be given for a piece of work in the Australian SF community. They both have international recognition, and the nominees and winners are reported widely in SF publications all over the world. There are even wikipedia pages for these awards, so I would assume that this means the awards have satisfied wikipedia's standards for notability.Punkrocker1991 (talk) 01:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ditmar and Aurealis awards might be important and respected, but according to the article Slatter didn't win them. She was nominated for one, "shortlisted" for the other. That plus some dust-jacket blurb is the best that seems to be on offer. EEng (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:BIO states "or has been nominated for one several times". Five nominations for two sets of national awards is more than several, satisfying the criteria (it appears your objection relates more to the evidence required to satisfy the criteria). I would also ask if you have any experience in either the Australian Science Fiction community or the publishing/library industry, to determine whether you are suitable to judge the notability of reviews (including starred reviews) in Publishers Weekly. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 01:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I also believe that the author does qualify under WP:CREATIVE, specifically "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." Numerous independent reviews of her work, including two reviews in Publishers Weekly, one of those being a starred review. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 06:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I respect your right to hold an opinion and voice your opinion. In this case, I am seeking to ascertain what additional material I can produce to sway your opinion. Angela Slatter is a well respected and notable writer in the Australian SF community. As such I seek your help in demonstrating this so that she can be recognised in Wikipedia. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 01:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I do not see a significant body of work. What work is well known? How has her work been the subject "of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews?" ttonyb (talk) 01:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment

Reviews of her first collection, Sourdough and other stories

Reviews of her second collection, The Girl With no Hands and other tales

These are only a selection of the reviews out there in independent periodicals. i can provide more if you request. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete (see later comments) - No reliable secondary sources are provided in the article - they are all self published or blogs. One is even a deadlink to a facebook page. Punkrocker, thanks for providing the sources above, but I do not believe these qualify as reliable sources. They simply appear to be blogs without editorial oversight. At least one of them is signed "Punkrocker1991". Producing expert opinions in itself is not going to help, unless said opinion has been reported in a reliable source. Publishers Weekly might get close, but I don't know if they are notable, and more to the point, I can't verify their review exists. Other acceptable "evidence" would be a review in a major magazine or newspaper, or some other demonstration that the work is of major importance. It fails both WP:CREATIVE and WP:GNG at the moment, and a quick google search doesn't produce anything better than that mentioned above. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 03:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the Ditmar and Aurealis Awards are notable award nominations for an Australian science fiction author and it appears as though Slatter's work has been the subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. This meets WP:CREATIVE. - Outcast44 (talk) 03:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned above, she didn't win these awards. And CREATIVE (which is the same as AUTHOR) requires a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work that has been the subject of multiple articles or reviews. A short story or stories being mentioned in an article coverering a bunch of different authors doesn't meet that standard. EEng (talk) 23:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As mentioned above, the criteria isn't only about winning, it is also about multiple nomination. She has fulfilled this criteria. She has had two books published, both were reviewed in Publishers Weekly. Combined with the other reviews, this fulfills the "collective body of work". Right now, i can go to all of the major online bookstores, and purchase two titles written by Slatter. Both publications are from award-winning independent publishers, and are not self published. One title, Sourdough and other stories features an introduction written by World Fantasy Award-winning writer Robert Shearman (who has also written for Dr Who). Punkrocker1991 (talk) 05:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment How does Slatter not meet WP:CREATIVE when she has received five national award nominations and multiple reviews in established publications such as The Australian and Publishers Weekly for two books and several short stories? Several of the reviews listed by Punkrocker1991 are from online sources, but these I see as support for the 'subject of multiple articles or reviews' criteria of WP:CREATIVE. When all is added together, I believe the author's notability is sufficient. Yes, this author is not Mark Twain, John Grisham or Stephen King, but WP:CREATIVE doesn't require that level of notability. Outcast44 (talk) 14:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment These are the full text of the two Publishers Weekly reviews -- as Publishers Weekly has a wikipedia entry can I assume that PW meets the criteria for a notable and reliable source
10/25/2010 Fiction Web Exclusive Sourdough and Other Stories Angela Slatter, Tartarus (www.tartaruspress.com), $50 (238p) ISBN 9781905784257 "Australian author Slatter (Black-Winged Angels) displays a rare gift for evocative and poetic prose in this collection of 16 dark fairy tales featuring characters that will be familiar to readers of the Brothers Grimm, but themes (such as long-simmering vengeance and unnatural death) that push them out of the kids' stuff camp. The knockout short but powerful opener, "The Shadow Tree," about a royal servant's response to the cruelty of the king's teenage children, climaxes with a chilling resolution. And "Little Radish" neatly tweaks the well-known tale of Rapunzel. Yet Slatter doesn't always rely on the creations of others for her ideas, as the title story, with its baker narrator, amply demonstrates. She has a knack for crafting opening lines that almost hypnotically draw the reader in ("The sight of the inn picks at the stitches of my memory. The splintered shingle, emblazoned with a faded golden lily, swings in the breeze"). Her considerable talent should translate well to the novel-length fantasy she's currently working on. (Sept. Starred Review)"
09/13/2010 Fiction Web Exclusive The Girl with No Hands (and Other Tales) Angela Slatter, Ticonderoga (www.indiebooksonline.com), $22.50 (210p) ISBN 9780980628883 "In this collection of 16 previously published and new stories, Slatter presents twisted, fractured, illuminating fairy tales and dark fantasies that beguile in their elegant simplicity. Many of the stories are reiterations of classic fairy tales from all over the world. But by retelling the tales in a more intimate manner, Slatter illuminates the symbiotic relationship between pleasure and pain. The sexually candid "Bluebeard" is an empowering tale of a whore and her daughter who best a monster. The wholly original "The Living Book" personifies the intimate act of reading, while "Skin" reworks the Gaelic legend of the selkie into a tale of revenge and redemption from the seal woman's perspective. An afterword elucidates the source material and intent behind each tale. Dark and sinister, these shorts place strong, empathetic female protagonists into harrowing, horrifying, or humble circumstances and see them triumph. (Aug.)" Punkrocker1991 (talk) 05:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Having a Wikipedia article is not a guarantee that the subject is a reliable secondary source. 04:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Can I ask then what is a reliable secondary source? I am beginning to feel frustrated at trying to meet ever-changing arbitrary standards. You may also wish to know that SF Site won the Locus Award for best SF Website. Does this make the source more reliable? If someone can give me a benchmark I will try to reach this, and if I cannot reach this benchmark I will not oppose the deletion of this entry. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – There is nothing arbitrary about the definition of sources. Please see WP:RS. Can I ask that you please help by following the format of marking your your comments with the Comment title. It makes it easier to read the threads of thoughts. Thanks... ttonyb (talk) 05:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have read that page extensively. Can you please tell me whether Publishers Weekly is a reliable secondary source? Similarly can you please tell me if the SF Site is a reliable source? See below, can you please tell me if The Australian newspaper is a reliable source? Punkrocker1991 (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – If they meet the criteria in WP:RS they are. If you notice I did not say the articles were not valid sources, I said just because the entity that published the source had an article in Wikipedia, it did not guarantee that it was a valid source for the article. There would be a high probability that anything published in the entity would be, but not a guarantee. ttonyb (talk) 05:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment How about this review in The Australian newspaper http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/imagination-that-deftly-defies-northern-gravity/story-e6frg8no-1111116985682

"Dreaming Again demonstrates that there is a distinctive Australian voice in speculative fiction, heard in the irreverence and humour of the stories and in the use of Australian landscapes. Indeed, reading this anthology makes it obvious just how much of the best overseas work is derivative of US and British culture and locations. It is a pleasure to see something as out-worldly as science fiction and fantasy writing grounded in our culture and landscapes.

An excellent example is Angela Slatter's The Jacaranda Wife, about a woman born of a jacaranda tree. It weaves together themes of colonisation and indigenous lore on a 4000ha sheep station. It could only have been written here and is one of the best stories in the collection."

Does this add to the argument in favour of this entry? Punkrocker1991 (talk) 05:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • A review in The Australian - now we're talking. Slatter's mention is brief, but probably more than trivial as required in WP:GNG. I don't think any of the other sources make the grade. It's a pretty thin basis for notability, but it might just get it over the line. Thoughts?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:05, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete WP:AUTHOR: The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. Also-ran for some awards? Phrase-length mention in review of an anthology? No, sorry. EEng (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:GNG Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material. Two phrase length reviews singling out her work in a 35-story anthology seems to satisfy this criteria. "Some awards"? These are internationally recognised national awards. A bit like calling The World Series "some baseball game". Punkrocker1991 (talk) 01:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:GNG Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material. My understanding is that a trivial mention would be along the lines of, "Dreaming Again features stories by a, b, c, Angela Slatter, d, x, y and z". To have a story singled out for description and praise in a review of a 35-story anthology, in a major newspaper, where not all stories are mentioned, is non-trivial. To have this same story mentioned and singled out in two such reviews (by different reviewers) surely carries some weight to satisfying the criteria. Punkrocker1991 (talk) 01:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said, an argument could be made that such critique is "non-trivial", but it's still not a strong basis for notability, particularly in light of the fact that there are no reliable sources that deal with her work exclusively. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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