Talk:Blasphemy

Swapped Order

I have swapped the order of the basic and the broader senses of Blasphemy, as it seemed to make the initial flow of the article progress better.

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Idiots

I have removed the Gibson-esque 'damn Jews' which someone had added to the middle of the article.

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Artist Convicted of 'Blasphemy'

Mon Jul 21, 7:24 AM ET

WARSAW (Reuters) - A Polish artist who exhibited an image of a man's penis attached to a cross broke the Roman Catholic country's law on blasphemy, a court has ruled, according to Poland's top-selling daily on Saturday.

Gazeta Wyborcza said the conviction of artist Danuta Nieznalska in the Baltic port of Gdansk was the first known instance in Poland of anyone being convicted of offending religious sensibilities.

"The cross is a symbol of suffering, because on it Christ died. There is no doubt that this cross has been desecrated," the paper quoted as Judge Tomasz Zielinski as saying.

In addition to a 2,000 zloty ($500) fine, the judge imposed on Nieznalska a six-month foreign travel ban, saying her legal notoriety would likely increase her demand in international art circles.

"I am shocked by such a severe sentence," the paper quoted the artist as saying after the verdict. "The court was totally biased. The judge admitted he was no art expert."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&ncid=583&e=5&u=/nm/20030721/od_nm/poland_blasphemy_dc

Hey, that link didn't work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.22.207 (talk) 07:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

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Not touching the above quote with a ten-foot pole, I was under the impression that Finland had repealed its blasphemy law circa 1990. -- Kizor 10:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On research it appears that it hasn't, but I couldn't see anyone save the freethinkers caring about this. There have been three convinctions of it in the recent years, all fines, and at least two were quite unambiguously asking for it. FYI. -- Kizor 29 June 2005 14:30 (UTC)

Blasphemy and the Church of England - A divisional court did state that English law protected the beliefs of the C of E, rahter than Islam, but this is not a strong precedent, and in isolation would misrepresent the scope of the blasphemy laws. I altered that sentence to indicate that the law referred to God, Jesus & the bible, which is better supported by other precedents and the actual legislation - Paul 20:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I subdivided the blasphemy laws section of this article to make it a bit more organized and hopefully a little bit easier to read and understand.
JesseG 04:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

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I tried to edit the main paragraph but the article always gets truncated in the edit box.--84.188.185.146 04:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad cartoons controversy relevent?

I'm not sure whether it's really relevent to include a link to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy in the section on blasphemy in Islam. Wasn't the controversy mainly about iconism rather than blasphemy? In any case, a link at the bottom seems out of place, if it is really relevent it would surely be better to include a sentence of two description of the controversy, focusing on the issue of blasphemy, rather than just pointing towards it without fitting it into the wider context of blasphemy and Islam. Daduzi 23:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Following a discussion with User:Tom harrison the link has now been moved into the main paragraph and put into some context. Daduzi 16:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Blasphemy law in Britain

The article says that blasphemy laws are still on the book in Britain, but there's no handy set of brackets afterwards to tell me which law(s) that's referring to. If someone could put that info in I'd be interested to read it. --Hughcharlesparker 21:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Blasphemy laws in France?

Some court decisions in France suggest that there are blasphemy laws on the books; for example, the ban on an advertisement that used the Last Supper in a way that the court ruled constituted "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs". None of the news articles make clear precisely what law is being used in these prosecutions, though; does anyone have another source that might clarify that? --Delirium 03:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Not every single case about blasphemy can be notated, and blasphemy laws in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and all other members of the European Union may be represented in unison by the section European initiatives in the article. But, for Finland, also a EU Member, the law was stated in its own section. I would consider adding this to the article yourself. IlStudioso 08:32, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Blasphemy in Islam

Blasphemy in Islam Blasphemy in Islam constitutes speaking ill of Muhammad, of any other prophet mentioned in the Qur'an, or of any Biblical prophets. Speaking ill of Allah is also blasphemy. Blasphemy is considered a very serious offence and may be punishable by death if charges are proven. British author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses was seen by many Muslims to contain blasphemies against Islam, and Iranian clerical leader Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa in 1989 calling for Rushdie's death. More recently, the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons were criticised in part on the basis that they were blasphemous against Muhamed.

This paragraph says "Blasphemy is considered a very serious offence and may be punishable by death if charges are proven". Which country is this effective? Can the author make this clear?

Odd sentence in Blasphemy in Christianity

What is "The more metaphysical aspects of early Christianity being now occluded by the dogma of secular religious authority." supposed to mean or refer to? And what is "secular religious authority"? Mairi 06:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Vilied?

In the United Kingdom section I find the word "vilied". Is this a typo or a real word? I cannot find this word in any dictionary. Please add a definition at Wiktionary or replace it with a word I know. I would fix it myself, but I am not familiar with the incident and can't figure the intent.-- Randall Bart <wiki@randallbart.com> 20:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Great word! Yeah, it should be vilified, I think. Have corrected. Bluewave 21:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Blasphemy in Christianity

That seems to contradict the Bible a little bit, especially because an outsider like me has no clue what "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is or means.

Paris Hilton?

In this article, it is written in the section "Blasphemy in Islam" that "Paris Hilton's existence is a blasphemy for most people" or something like that. This is surely innappropriate. User:DYBoulet July 29 2007 10:19 AM (AST)

Dubious

I find it highly dubious to say Ireland has a blasphemy law. No source is provided - the one given is an extremely vague link to the article on the constitution, but a constitution isn't the law. It's the constitution (there's a huge difference). Also, the only mention in the constitution of anything remotely like that is (as far as I can tell) one which holds the state (not the population) to respecting religion. Can someone please clarify or provide a more specific source - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 01:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know "subject to public order and morality" (Article 40.6.1) has been accepted by the courts to accept any blasphemous libel. See, for example, The Corway Case. As obscure as it is, blasphemy laws do exist in Ireland because of this mention of public order and morality.

And the Constitution is the law. It is the most fundamental legal doctrine in our countries. Any other laws which contrdict it are not, in fact, law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.84.35 (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems this has become law now see http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0723/crime.html (talk) 14:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.214.51 (talk)

Jerry Springer the Opera

It is incorrect to say the Jesus appears "dressed as a baby". The first half of the play is an episode of Springer's chat show; the second half is a dream sequence where he imagines himself doing a show in the Afterlife. The actor who played the "baby fetishist" in Act 1 plays Jesus in Act 2. The audience is certainly encouraged to draw a connection between Jesus' loincloth and the nappy that the fetishist wore, but it's wrong to say that Jesus appears in a nappy. There is enough in the play that is genuinely offensive to Christian sensibilities (e.g the implication that the Virgin Mary was "raped by an angel") that it's a pity to pick on something that isn't really there.

Andrew Rilstone (talk) 14:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I summarised the example from the main article on Blasphemy law in the UK...I haven't actually seen the show! I think the important thing is the court ruling. Feel free to edit! Bluewave (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Blasphemy disrespectful?

"Blasphemy is the disrespectful use of the name of one or more gods." Is it possible to be blasphemous without disrespecting God(s)? I can be blasphemous towards the Christian God without disrespecting him: "Jesus Christ! You really did that!?". It's a part of my language and is not meant to be disrespectful! People take offense by it. Just as if I take offense by people that wears blue sweaters, it's not disrespectful for them to do so.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thymo (talk • contribs) 08:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I was just about to ask the same! And, what I always wonder about is when we precede a word, especially slang words, with the word holy, as in holy f*ck!, holy cow!, etc. Is this blasphemy, or otherwise what other sin would it go under, or if it already covered in an article, may I please be told the name of that article? IlStudioso 08:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

To say "Jesus Christ! You really did that?" is not blasphemy but a possibly even pious invocation of the Name of God Who created the neighbor of yours in question that just comes from doing such an astonishing deed. That's a prayer and who said we could only pray with following prayer formulas, with all respect to prayer formulas? or that we need an occasion for prayer that a capital-lettered Society judges a fitting occasion for prayer? To utter an Hallelujah upon finding a lost thing is worship and praise. However, if it's part of your everyday language, you might think about avoiding to use God's Name in vain, that is, to speak without careful thinking about Him Who would deserve a careful, deliberate (but not scrupulous) use of His Name. But even uttering God's Name in vain is, though forbidden, not yet blasphemy. St. Thomas says blasphemy is a sin of unbelief, through not believing in His infinite goodness, and as opposed to the confession of faith.

In my view it is definitely more problematic to confirm facts, even true facts, by an "I swear" in everyday language (even without explicitly using the Name of God) which amounts to taking an oath (what are no problem is solemn oaths in the situation where oaths are used). An example for blasphemy from Grimmelshausens "Simplius Simplicissimus" is: "Let's in the name of God drink this barrel of wine", with the intention of getting drunk on purpose. When the same Simplicius Simplicissimus utters, on account of an astonishing fact, the names "Jesus Mary!", he is not accused of blasphemy, and why should he, but of Papism for the reason of talking about the Mother of God. (What an accusation...) It was the clerics that introduced the practice of greeting with "Grüß Gott" in Bavaria and Austria.

However, it is another story that we shouldn't do what we know that other people will take offence if it can unproblematically be avoided.

"Holy cow" and "holy fuck" are blasphemous, as giving the Name of God (which Holy is in this place) to a creature - we're not talking about saints who partake of the Love of God, nor practically about Creation as created by God wherefore in an abstract sense, a cow could be called holy, but which is not the thought behind such expressions. Besides, it is an intolerant disrespect against Hinduism, and the holy act of marital love. (And it does seem strange to me not to want to write the word "fuck", but not to have a problem to write "holy" which produces the blasphemy.) I would in all earnest suggest to replace these expressions by a good old "Good Lord in Heaven!".

I've read that even what is blasphemy can be a venial sin if it has so much become the habit of speaking that the speaker has practically lost the ability to avoid it, provided that he makes sincere efforts to lose that habit and, of course, frequents Holy Confession. -- However, all this are just some private and, as you might have seen, quite German thoughts on the matter which can of course be wrong, and to get information it would be better to ask your confessor that on the Wikipedia talk page.--93.133.213.147 (talk) 09:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Blasphemy and the United Nations

This section needs extensive chopping and re-writing for WP:NPOV. Examples of POV and WP:SYNTHESIS:

• "...contains articles which militate against the idea that..."
• "By adopting these articles, most nations, it seems, in 1948, accepted the idea that..."
• "...those states had not, it seems, accepted that blasphemy should be abolished because..."
• etc. Per Ardua (talk) 13:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The tags relating to this and other sections were removed yesterday, but I don't see any evidence that the issues were resolved. I added one myself just on glancing over the section - I agree with Per Ardua that it reads as if written as a piece of synthesis to further a particular point of view. I don't particularly like Sharia, but this isn't the place to convince people of that, nor is this going to. In fact, a lot of this section seems barely relevant, and too detailed to be useful in an article about the generic term "Blasphemy". If you want to show what people think about this, line up some secondary sources that do analysis themselves and go write Blasphemy and the United Nations with it. GreenReaper (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I will turn the section into an article very soon. The re-write is going more slowly than I had anticipated. PYRRHON  talk   23:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Section: Blasphemy laws

I have added some references to the section, which is merely a summary of the main article:Blasphemy law. The main article is another summary of the articles within Wikipedia about blasphemy laws. Those articles have hundreds of references which could be put here. The United States State Department, the United Nations, Amnesty International, the International Humanist and Ethical Union, and other reliable sources have information on their websites about repression in countries with state religions. Because of that repression, information about some countries is not available or is unreliable. Editors are invited to add more references. PYRRHON  talk   19:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Revert by TechBear

I made alterations to the article to improve its organisation and its accuracy. I amended the lede because it was dreadful as it was. The lede was dreadful because:

• it is not necessary to be familiar with semiotics to understand what blasphemy is;

• blasphemy is whatever the ruling religion says it is -- blasphemy need not involve a god or gods;

• "using sacred names as stress expletives" seems to be some pop-psychology lingo for "cursing";

• the core of blasphemy is "irreverence", which was not stated in the lede.

I removed the definition from Webster's because it is parochial and antiquated and incorrect.

I moved all the content that has to do with colloquial usage to one place because I find no good reason for having such content scattered, and such content does not belong in the lede. The lede is merely a summary of what is in the article.

I provided references to the terms that are related to blasphemy such as "defamation of religion" because I thought the references would be helpful. PYRRHON  talk   19:40, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Examples

Examples would be super good!

Examples

Examples would be super good! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.73.78 (talk) 12:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Blasphemy laws

This section currently reads "Countries use blasphemy laws to victimize non-members of, and dissident members of, the ruling sect or cult. Countries with a state religion are the most punitive users of blasphemy laws." Hardly neutral?? Balance should be added, or the text that's there should be removed. Bunburya (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Misrepresentation (or at least controversial interpretation) of Exodus in Blasphemy in Christianity

The article quotes the following: "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain" (Exodus 20:7) as a prohibition against blasphemy. This verse is understood, at least in Jewish commentary, as being specifically a prohibition against swearing an oath that is either pointless or false. The Talmud Bavli (Shevuot 29a) mentions, as examples of vain oaths, an oath that a wooden object that is made of wood (which is tautological and therefore pointless); and an oath that an obviously wooden object is made of gold (which is obviously false and therefore pointless). The prohibition against taking the Lord's name in vain also extends to casual utterance of The True Name of God (which is why the Name is rendered as "Ad-nai" in prayer and "HaShem" in everyday utterances by orthodox Jews, to the extent that the pronunciation of the Four-Letter Name is no longer known) and, obviously, fraudulent or trivial oath-making.

Other commandments also implicate blasphemy, including the creation of idols. Yaletiger (talk) 04:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That is indeed not only the interpretation of the Jews, but of St. Thomas Aquinas as well, who explicitly deals with the reasons why there should be a Commandment against perjury if there is already a Commandment against Wrong Witness (its extending to every lying is correct but secondary). However, St. Thomas says that blasphemy is "as well and even more" taking the Lord's Name in vain. But indeed, blasphemy is not the name for transgressions of the Second Commandment. But you might understand that Christians who have got used to deal with truth under the Eighth Commandment may think of other things when talking of the Second Commandment. But still, we find in the Catechisms the prohibition of oaths wrong, rash or taken without religious reverence listed under the Second Commandment.--93.133.213.147 (talk) 09:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)