Talk:Bar and bat mitzvah

Criticism

I support the new "criticism" paragraph, but it needs WP:CITE. I can produce references from Rav Shimon Schwab's "Collected Writings", but there may be a more generic source from rabbinic panels etc. JFW | T@lk 11:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a source book for criticism against Bat Mitzvah celebrations http://israel613.com/books/BAT_MITZVAH-H.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobover1 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It's an all-Hebrew pamphlet from a dubious website. Not much help on English Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

14 Year Old?

It states in the Introduction part that In the Sephardic tradition, a boy may enter adulthood somewhat later, waiting until after his 14th birthday.

As a Sephardic Jew I can say none of my Sephardic friends waited until 14 years old of age. Even I was 13 years 1 month old... I think this statement should be removed once and for all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iggydarsa (talk • contribs) 16:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

bas mitzvah

It is possible, when reading the New York Times, to encounter 'bas mitzvah' as well as 'bat mitzvah'. On one occasion, a Metro Diary entry addresed the difference: see http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/nyregion/metropolitan-diary-650960.html?scp=8&sq=%22bas%20mitzvah%22&st=cse

However, not being Jewish and having seen a mistake or two in print, I don't trust this enough as a source to cite it and edit the Wikipedia entry accordingly.

Would someone please add a reliable explanation of 'bas' and 'bat' usage? Publius3 (talk) 23:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

In the Hebrew alphabet "s" and "t" are basically the same letter -- well one of the "s"s anyways. In some ethnic backgrounds it's always read as an "s" and in others it's read as a "s" in some words and a "t" in others where there's an extra dot. You'll see the same thing with Shabbat, which is often pronounced Shabbas, though I've never seen it written that way.

This seems like an problem endemic to discussing words which come from other languages, or at least ones which span multiple ethnic subgroups. There's not much to say about it or you would be noting the same points over and over again for every word. 87.127.95.198 (talk) 02:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It has to do with the differences between Ashkenazic and Sephardic Hebrew dialects. Here's and article that explains it a bit more. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 02:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

readability

The basic content of the first sentence seems to be: "In Judaism, a Bar Mitzvah or a Bat Mitzvah is a Jewish boy or girl who has come of age." The sheer volume of other material makes this quite difficult to see. Suggestion: make the simple statement first, then give all the linguistic detail.

[First sentence in full:

In Judaism, a Bar Mitzvah (Aramaic: בר מצוה, "one (m.) to whom the commandments apply"; if it were Hebrew it would be בן (ben) not בר (bar). בר is "son" in Aramaic, and בן (ben) is son in Hebrew.) or a Bat Mitzvah (בת מצוה, "one (f.) to whom the commandments apply;" Ashkenazi: Bas Mitzvah) (pl. B'nei Mitzvah) is a Jewish boy or girl who has come of age.] PeterBiddlecombe (talk) 07:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I had a go at fixing that… Ant (talk)

Scheduling of Bar Mitzvah

A couple of Judaism 101 questions:
In the film Sixty Six "based on the true life bar mitzvah of director Paul Weiland", the plot hinges on the fact that the protagonist's Bar Mitzvah is scheduled for the same day as the 1966 World Cup, and the resulting conflict in priorities evidenced by his relatives and friends.
AFAIK (and I don't) it's not necessary that a Bar Mitzvah be scheduled on any specific day. Yes? No?
On the other hand, I assume that a Bar Mitvah must be scheduled so as to avoid conflicts with various holidays.(?) -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 22:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between a Bar Mitzvah (on the 13th birthday) and the Bar Mitzvah party. Most prefer to have it on the exact day and on the shabbat following it. Happy138 (talk) 07:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

B'nay Mitzvah

I'm not sure if I'm spelling it right, but when a boy and a girl both have their mitzvahs in the same ceremony, isn't it called a b'nay mitzvah?

Yes, but "bnei mitsvah" is simply the plural for "bar mitsvah"; i.e., it corresponds to either multiple boys or any mixed group (since the masculine is used by default in the case of mixed-gender groups). "Bnot mitsvah" is the plural for "Bat mitsvah"; since these are the simple Hebrew plurals for "sons" and "daughters," it is probably best viewed as a grammatical issue and probably doesn't warrant anything more than a cursory mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.68.72.108 (talk) 05:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it'd be more appropriate to entitle the article, "Bnei Mitzvah" (בְּנֵי מִצְוָה, cf. wikt:בר מצוה) because it has no disjunction and is the plural of "Bar and Bat Mitzvah"; NB: instead of a page called Jew and Jewess, ours is called Jews like יהודים (Yehudim). I think it is more practical to use the globally-gendered plural than the current disjoined mix of English and Hebrew. Additionally, the English language WP:GOOGLETEST for "bnei mitzvah", http://www.google.com/search?q=bnei+mitzvah&lr=lang_en , yields over eight million results so using it as an English encyclopaedic label should be entirely appropriate. Warmest Regards, :)—_thecurran Speak your mind ^{my past} 06:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Literal meaning

If "bar" means "son" (as in many Jewish family), and "mitzvah" is a commandment, isn't the literal meaning of "bar mitzvah" 'son of the commandment(s)' rather than 'one to whom the commandments apply', which would seem to be a metaphorical extension. Likewise with "bat" 'daughter'. Worth mentioning?

Also, the introductory sentence is cumbersome; I'll try breaking in two. 24.69.167.26 (talk) 16:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization?

Is there any reason why "Bar Mitzvah" and "Bas Mitzvah" are capitalized in the article? Robert K S (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Girls become Bat Mitzvah at 13 years statement.

I found and added a Reform reference for girls becoming Bat Mitzvah at 13. I haven't found a Conservative one so that still needs to be added. Unless we can find a reference for both. Kathyfeller (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Responsibilities?

The entry

• At times the child boy or girl has to postpone if the father and mother think it necessary.

doesn't appear to be related to responsibilities and doesn't read well, either. Not having a clue regarding the topic at hand, I ask here instead. How does that bit work? 77.164.22.201 (talk) 21:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Bar and Bat Mitzvah → Bnei Mitzvah —(בְּנֵי מִצְוָה, cf. WP:TITLE & wikt:בר מצוה) (-)Recognizability—a WP:GOOGLETEST for "bnei mitzvah" has 12.6k results but "bar and bat mitzvah" has 72.2k; only a fraction (.758) of an order of magnitude more.

(+)Naturalness—bnei mitzvah is the wikt:translingual, universal plural but bar and bat mitzvah is a disjoined mix of English and Hebrew with an inappropriate two-count constraint; bnei and bnot mitzvah avoids the count constraint but sounds less natural in both tongues.

(+)Precision—as both are similarly precise, WP:PRECISION prefers the concise one, bnei mitzvah.

(+)Conciseness—bnei mitzvah has two words or twelve characters but bar and bat mitzvah has four words or nineteen characters.

(+)WP:TITLE#Explicit conventions—instead of a page called Jew and Jewess, ours is called Jews like יהודים (Yehudim) @ the top of that page.

(+)WP:TITLE#Titles containing "and"—avoiding "and" is preferred.--Warmest Regards, :)—_thecurran Speak your mind ^{my past} 07:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose your own results shows that the current title is more recognized, 72/12 = 6, so it is 600% more prominent. Further, "bar mitzvah" and "bat mitzvah" shows half a million hits, definitely more than the proposed title. 64.229.103.105 (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)