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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 173.70.113.42 (talk) at 18:14, 6 February 2011. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

D'Jais

D'Jais (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Look, here's what we need to know:
(1) Why is this bar somthing people all over the world might want to know about?
(2) Where is the answer to (1) written down, in a newspaper, magazine, or book?
EEng (talk) 19:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I see on the talkpage thay you say there's a one-page (really?) NYT article. Can you point us to it ?But you need to know that restaurant reviews, travel articles, etc., aren't going to be enough.
  • I'm not sure that everything in Wikipedia meets standard #1. Some people would want to know about it, though.

Basically, I would not have posted this page if I hadn't seen the New York Times articles. My argument is that this bar is iconic enough that when the NYT publishes something about shore clubs, or needs to report the response of shore clubs to an issue, one of the people they contact is Frank Sementa (or Kipp Connor) at D'Jais. D'Jais is a significant a part of youth culture in this region of the states. I don't think I said there was a whole page dedicated to D'Jais - I just listed the page number of the article. I just looked and there are 5 NYT articles, 1/2 to 3/4 page long. They are about issues affecting D'Jais and other clubs, but D'Jais is highlighted. Two feature both pictures and text pertaining to D'Jais: "Is Tourism necessary?" - small picture of Kipp Connor and D'Jais, 1/2 page article. "Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion" - 1/4 page picture of Frank Sementa in front of D'Jais, 1/2-3/4 page article.139.84.48.251 (talk) 21:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC) The 5 articles are in addition to the restaurant review.139.84.48.251 (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC) I am the author of the D'jais Wikipedia page, but forgot to log in. 139.84.48.251 = Smm201`0 (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused how you could read the D'Jais page and not see the references. Don't you have to read the page to review it?
References
1.^ a b Glickson, G. (1992, September 6). If you're thinking of living in Belmar. New York Times, p. R5.
2.^ a b Cowen, R., & Shih, E. (2007, September 2). Sun, sand, surf combine for a fine end to season. The Record, Bergen County, N.J., p. A01.
3.^ a b c d DeMasters, K. (2002, August 18) By the beach, a club and a club sandwich. New York Times, p. NJ12.
4.^ a b c Dellisanti, A. (1990, May 27). A beach fee dispute and a question: Is tourism necessary? New York Times, p. NJ2.
5.^ a b Entertainment/News Editors (2004, July 9). 18th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest Attracts Over 9,500 Visitors; More than 350 Entries of All Ages Competed in Belmar Event. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
6.^ a b c Entertainment/News Editors (2003, June 20). Record Turnout Anticipated for 17th Annual New Jersey Sandcastle Contest in Belmar Business Editors/Travel Writers. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
7.^ a b Entertainment/News Editors (2002, June 26). Sand Sculpting Expert to Offer Free Clinic on Building the Perfect Sandcastle. Business Wire, New York, p. 1.
8.^ Robbins, L. (2005, August 29). After break and break up, Clijsters makes a fresh start. New York Times, p. F4.
9.^ McAleavy, T. (1996, Jun 14). Towns teach bouncers a thing or two. The Record, Bergen County, N.J. p. 020.
10.^ a b Larsen, E. (2007, April 3). Resort towns look for balance. Knight Ridder Tribune Business News, p. 1.
11.^ Shaheenbelmar, J. (1986, June 8). Belmar tries to soften effect. New York Times, p. NJ22.
12.^ Special to the New York Times (1986, June 22) Jersey town shuts bars early - and stirs debates. New York Times,p. 34.

Smm201`0 (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to read WP:N, WP:RS, WP:NOTTRAVEL. In most of these sources the word "D'Jais" appears only once, one of a list of beach bars, or "Celebrity X is hanging out at D'Jais before returning to Belgium", plus there's one short review. 5,6, and 7 mention that D'J sponsors a sandcastle contest -- sponsoring a sandcastle contest doesn't make a place notable.. I don't want to hurt your feelings, but this isn't going to cut it, sorry. But there's a few more days, maybe you'll come up with more. EEng (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC) P.S. it doesn't matter about other articles. There's plenty of stuff in WP that shouldn't be there. See WP:OTHERSTUFF[reply]
  • Your description of the references is clearly selective since D'jais is clearly mentioned in a substantive way in the other articles that you chose not to mention. I suspect that your involvement is at the request of your friends since your initial comment was made without having read the article.

Smm201`0 (talk) 02:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uh oh, you mentioned that you're new to Wikipedia, and you're off to a very bad start. You are encouraged -- in fact required -- to assume good faith on the part of other editors; see WP:FAITH. I commented on the articles that I was able to accesss, although I can't say I tried as hard as I could for all of them. The rest appear from the titles to be unlikely to be about D;J in any substantial way. That remains to be seen, but you'll be very lucky to find any editor who will wade through the sand-castle articles trying to find one article that lends notability (and more than one will be needed, by the way). So again, for the third time, will you please read the notability guidelines and tell us which, if any, of your sources qualify (and please provide live links to those sources if you can)? The article's already been deleted once and it's your job now to see that it doesn't happen again, if that's what you want. EEng (talk) 03:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I cannot provide live links to the print New York Times articles or post them online because they are copyrighted. I have access through a university to full text newspaper articles, which is how I located them. Others with access can verify their existance.Smm201`0 (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, if you have live links to any of these articles you can and should supply them -- copyright has nothing to do with it. That makes things easy on everyone.
Beyond that... this is now the 3rd or 4th time I've asked:
  1. Please say 'which' of the articles listed above are the ones you claim satisfy the notability criteria at WP:CORP, particularly WP:CORPDEPTH?
  2. For each of those articles , if you haven't supplied a link then please quote the passage that mentions D'J. I predict they are very short.
I'm asking this very directly because, as I've said before, it appears from those of your sources I'm able to see, and (for the others) from their titles plus they way you use them in the article, that they are trivial mentions and reviews.::EEng (talk) 00:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Look, once again, will you please' say which sources -- listed in the article or not -- establish notability under WP:CORP? I keep asking you to do this. A pile of 22 sources -- most of which seem (by their content for those linked, and by their title for those not -- e.g. sandcastles) to be trivial and to mention or likely mention D;Jais only in passing -- plus your statemtn that "there are additional sources" is no help. Which ones do you claim qualify the bar for notability. If the notability-establoishing sources aren't linked, then please quote the bit that talks about D;Jais. Please, will you do that? EEng (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listen, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I feel I've already provided my rationale. You've already suggested that it be deleted. Have a good night. Smm201`0 (talk) 05:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked several other editors to give their opinions, so it won't be just you and me. One in particular is very good a digging up sources for notability. EEng (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gene93k (see above) has already linked this discussion to different AfD topic forums in order to encourage discussion. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smm201`0 (talk •contribs) 15:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note (by EEng): Smm recently posted the below at the article's Talk -- I'm copying it here to centralize discussion
Rationale for KEEPING D'Jais in a nutshell. D'Jais is a significant a part of youth culture on the East Coast of the US. D’Jais is one of the most, if not the most, famous nightclub catering to college age youth on the Jersey Shore. This bar is iconic enough that when the New York Times (which is the most respected newspaper in the Northeast US, read by people in the highly populated NY, NJ, PA, and CT metropolitan areas as well as many across the world) publishes something about an issue affecting Jersey Shore clubs, they contact D'Jais management for an interview. In addition to brief statements used to support the facts included in the Wikipedia D’Jais page, a good amount of the space in some of the 1/2 to 3/4 page NYT articles is dedicated to D’Jais in particular. For instance, two articles feature both pictures and text pertaining to D'Jais (e.g., "Belmar tries to soften effect of summer invasion" features a 1/4 page picture of Frank Sementa in front of D'Jais and "Is Tourism necessary?" includes a picture of Kipp Connor and D'Jais). The quantity of articles referring to D’Jais is also a sign of its significant notability. There are numerous NYT articles that cover D’Jais and still others in the Asbury Park Press and local papers (e.g., Coast Star, Coaster). Topics covered include issues related to the tourist industry, impact on local community, sandcastle competitions, charity events, regulatory decisions, reviews, club culture, and general news stories. There are also many web sites and blogs that discuss D’Jais at length, but I chose to focus on the highest quality references to document facts. Smm201`0 (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
quote above submitted by EEng. Smm201`0 (talk) 15:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC) I'm striking out the foregoing because it gives the mistaken impression that I wrote the above. As my introductory note (just above your text above) says, the above is your posting to the article's Talk, copied here to centralize discussion. I've clarified the introductory note to make it clear I did the copying. EEng (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Delete - I checked the New York Times citations given and see no indication of notability. The Times citations, links (where available) and my comments below.
    • 1.^ a b Glickson, G. (1992, September 6). If you're thinking of living in Belmar. New York Times, p. R5.[3] Single mention: "The most popular dining place in town is Evelyn's Seafood Restaurant. D'Jais, Reggie's, Paul's Pub and Tropical Pub are beachfront night spots that attract college students."
    • 3.^ a b c d DeMasters, K. (2002, August 18) By the beach, a club and a club sandwich. New York Times, p. NJ12.[4] Restaurant review, no value in establishing notability
DeMasters, Karen (18 August 2002). "Quick Bite/Belmar; By the Beach, a Club and a Club Sandwich". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 February 2011.- D'Jais, the Belmar bar and dance club, has been a Jersey Shore institution for young people since the 1950's, but some people are surprised to learn it also is an outdoor restaurant with excellent food. The casual restaurant, which has a roof over the tables, overlooks the ocean. The menu has been developed by Mary Fallon, who has cooked for the owner, Frank Sementa, for more than a decade. Mr. Sementa, who played at the club in a local band during the 1970's, bought the establishment in 1979 and added the restaurant 12 years ago

I hardly see this as having no value. - Theornamentalist (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, it really does have no value. This is an utterly routine, caapsure review of the same kind done by NYT of hundreds of restaurants a year. Statement "has been a Jersery Shore institution" is the kind of throwaway line found in most reviews. See WP:CORPDEPTH. EEng (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, when did you gain the rights to say exactly what is a "throwaway line" or what, is in fact "routine"? We are just here to report what other people have reported, not to pick and choose. This bar gets coverage, period. I think the article simply needs a proper rewrite at this point. - Theornamentalist (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • 4.^ a b c Dellisanti, A. (1990, May 27). A beach fee dispute and a question: Is tourism necessary? New York Times, p. NJ2.not found in archives
    • 8.^ Robbins, L. (2005, August 29). After break and break up, Clijsters makes a fresh start. New York Times, p. F4.[5] Single mention, where this celebrity is taken to her boyfriend's "favorite dance club"
    • 11.^ Shaheenbelmar, J. (1986, June 8). Belmar tries to soften effect. New York Times, p. NJ22.not found in archives
    • 12.^ Special to the New York Times (1986, June 22) Jersey town shuts bars early - and stirs debates. New York Times,p. 34.[6] Named as an example of a club losing money due to early closings; an 11-word comment from manager Sementa is quoted; not enough for notability
    • (not listed) Where the Party Is Perpetual[7] Single mention as 'a wildly popular club' in an article about summer house sharing, not good enough. --CliffC (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Archives issue. Online article archives may be different from print archives. I located the print articles through a university full text article database. It may be possible to access print archive databases through public libraries.Smm201`0 (talk) 16:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why should we repeat work you've already done? You've been asked over and over and over to quote, from the articles to which you have spacial access, the bits mentioning D'J, just as CiffC did above. The reason you should do this is that the article titles suggest they would have very little to do with any particular bar, including D'J, and would only mention them in passing. Even of D'J's owner is the "go-to guy" for quotes on town-tourist friction, that might have something to do with his notability (if this were an article on him), but not the bar. EEng (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2011 (UTC) P.S. Please don'e misunderstand me as suggesting that you should start an article on the bar's owner. He'd need a lot more than that to be notable.[reply]
Sounds like a good idea to me. I'll do that next.173.70.113.42 (talk) 18:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

173.70.113.42 (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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