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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Seercat (talk | contribs) at 05:13, 14 March 2011 (→‎Tericka Dye). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Tericka Dye

Tericka Dye (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Not notable either as a porn actress (fails WP:PORNBIO, lacks significant coverage in multiple reliable and independent sources of her film work) or as a teacher (fails WP:TEACHER) and fails WP:BIO, in the news only for having to give up the teaching career when her acting background was exposed in 2006 and in 2011. Per WP:BLP1E (the two job loss incidents are a repetition of the same basic event) and WP:NOTNEWS. WP:BLP also says "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."Edison (talk) 20:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 21:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - rationale is different from the nominator. Based mainly on NOTNEWS. BLP1E does not apply because they are two separate events 5 years apart even though they are similar. Further the multiple press coverage cited in the article demonstrates that wikipedia would not be the primary vehicle for the spread of claims. I agree this is sensationalistic material though low on the notability scale of the two events and would just add to the harm. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Multiple press coverage. Passes WP:GNG and I can see this article being of use to someone researching the transition of people from the adult film industry into the "mainstream". Some have done this and some have failed to make that transition. In the end, we're an encyclopedia and I see this as valuable to that end. Dismas|(talk) 01:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I first saw this story reported on USAToday, and in checking to see if it happened to be in wikipedia, I saw that the wikipedia article gives broader and deeper information. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:15, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Dismas says it has news articles (agreed) and that it is useful and interesting. Bugs says "I saw it in USA Today." These arguments do not address WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E as well as other deletion reasons given in the nomination. Edison (talk) 05:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This is a joke, right? Edison, you are joking. You have to be. Either that or you have a personal adgenda that you are pushing here. For over five years this article has been here and now you just wander by and start trying to stir things up. Name any other porn teacher who has been fired from their job before. And not just once, but twice! There are HUNDREDS of articles in Wikipedia about porn stars. Why should this girl be any different? You are just trying to push a personal agenda here. Brittany Cintron (talk) 07:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete While I understand the point by that WP:BLP1E may not apply, on the grounds that she's been outed as a ex-porn actress on two occasions rather than one, both are minor, and both can be seen as a continuum. In effect, her claim to notability here is that she's an ex-porn star who has hit the news twice when that prior life was revealed. Otherwise she is not a public figure, is trying to keep a low profile, and is unlikely to hit the news again. Meanwhile, she's be trying to move away from her (not very controversial) past by changing her name, and having this coverage here has some risk of causing her harm. WP:NOTNEWS probably does apply, but for me the main reason to delete comes down to a consideration of the harm this article risks causing someone trying to rebuild their life after being outed, compared to the public interest served in having this article in the future. Given that I can't see any special enduring value in the article, but I can see a risk of harm to the subject, I think the apparent intent of BLP (as outlined by Edison), BLP1E and NOTNEWS comes into play. - Bilby (talk) 12:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • As noted earlier, the article has been here for nearly 4 years now, and suddenly someone decides it needs to be deleted. Well, my guess is that Edison stumbled across it because of the recent news coverage. You do have a point about the potential for causing harm, given that the subject has not been accused of breaking any laws (has she?) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Given that there are 3.5 million articles, there are likely a large number that have lingered for 4 years before being brought to AFD. I would love to see an age tabulation of article that have been deleted in the last year. Granted, new crappy articles are more likely to be spotted on "new article" or "recent changes" patrol. Longevity of an article in no way satisfies WP:N or any other guideline I can think of for why an article belongs in an encyclopedia, and there is no rule at all against bringing a 4 year old article to AFD. Doesn't this article predate both WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS, so when it was created all anyone would have looked at was "Is it in the newspapers?" which is no longer a sufficient excuse to keep an article about a person of dubious notability who is publicized for one thing she is seeking to put behind her? Edison (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just in regard the question regarding breaking laws - no, there hasn't been any accusation along those lines, and she wasn't fired from either position (rather, her contract wasn't or won't be renewed). - Bilby (talk) 06:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Passes WP:GNG easily. There is ample coverage dating back to 2006; she appeared on Dr. Phil as well. This passes WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E in that these are two separate events (note she did not get suspended in 2011) and that this incident is not routine news. Routine news is a teacher having sex with kids; this unfortunately happens way too often. But national coverage is received (and a spot on Conan, too!) in notable, non-routine cases like this. There is plainly no violation of NOTNEWS or BLP1E here. The reliable sources are many and they do not stop after one month. She is (marginally) notable for being an adult film actress as well, and if BLP1E should be further argued here, this must also be taken into consideration. There is no "one event" occurring here, it is a series of events. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would also like to point out the abundance of international coverage she has received: El Comercio, La Vanguardia, El Mundo, Peru.com, Dat Viet, Ngoi Sao, La Voz Libre, El Diario, and Cho Sun, to name but a few. It is clear to me that the subject of the article being discussed here passes WP:GNG. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • There is no amount of news about one event which is not covered by WP:NOTNEWS. A teacher being exposed as a former porn star of little notability is "one event," the first time, and "one event" the second time. Edison (talk) 01:26, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Last I checked, 1+1=2. Regardless, WP:NOTNEWS covers routine news events. Otherwise, we could delete Deepwater Horizon oil spill as well, because all it ever received was news coverage. I wouldn't call being fired for the same reason twice, in two different instances, and attracting national attention both times, routine, because it does not occur regularly. The coverage in reliable secondary sources means that the subject passes WP:GNG and I'm not sure where your argument is going at this point. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 01:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • If she was trying to be 'undercover' or low profile, then why did she put herself into the public eye as a school teacher? If i did porn, the last thing I would be doing is standing up in a classroom and teaching children. it's just commonsense that parents would be really really upset at having a porn star teach their kids. Plus, after being caught the first time, why did she do the very same thing again? Monica Lewinsky is only known for one event or one thing, yet she has an article, too. Adolf Hitler only did one thing, too (kill the jews), yet he has an article. Neil Armstrong also only did one thing, and then left the public eye, yet his article continues. Brittany Cintron (talk) 04:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • Brittany, with all due respect, your argument falls apart after Lewinsky. Hitler and Armstrong have many more reasons each to have an article besides killing jews and landing on the moon, respectively. Hitler would have an article as a head of state and Armstrong did many things before and after walking on the moon. Dismas|(talk) 04:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What on earth is "neutral" supposed to mean at AfD when the rationale is, "The refrences [sic] look OK"? Yes, they look very pretty, anything else you wanted to add that's relevant to policy? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 19:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you elaborate on your last statement? How much coverage do you think is necessary for this subject to pass WP:GNG? I believe I have already covered the NOTNEWS argument above; the coverage is not "routine". /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know this wasn't directed at me, so my apologies for commenting in this part. But the GNG describes what we need before including an article. It covers necessary, rather than sufficient, conditions, thus it is reasonable to not include an article even if it meets the GNG as other concerns may come into play. That said, in this case, the idea that a teacher would not have her contract renewed because of a past indiscretion is not special - it happens all the time. The only unusual factor is that she was an ex-porn actress, which turns it into tabloid fodder. If, one day, this story becomes more important - in particular if it is cited outside of the narrow confines of the event - then I'd support including it. Just not at the moment, especially given the risk of ongoing harm to the subject. - Bilby (talk) 03:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand what you're saying, but the issue is that it was more than just one event. I have found coverage on Google News that covers multiple events: her suspension, her lawsuit to get the job back (and subsequent dropping of the suit), her appearance on Dr. Phil, her second outing. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 05:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There is a very important sociological issue involved. What this woman did in her youth, while not illegal, is causing her to suffer job discrimination. It is adequately documented that she has in effect lost two respectable jobs because, in essence, she herself is not considered “respectable.” There is no discussion that she is in anyway incompetent performing her teaching duties, nor is there any mention that she has tried to sexually influence, or corrupt, her students. There is absolutely no indication that she had or attempted to have sex with any of her students.
This is a prima facie case of morality vs. legality. The “wrong” committed by the subject of the article was to engage in sexual activity on camera, for pay, in a state in which this is not a crime. The wrong, committed by the at least the first school district, was to fire her without giving her a valid reason; instead they hid behind weasel words like “disruptive influence.” The school district realized that they were in such a weak position legally that instead firing her, they paid her to the end of her contract, and then just didn’t renew it. A hearing might very well have resulted in a finding that there were insufficient legal grounds for firing her.
That would have been unacceptable to the school district, obviously. The issue here is when does morality, as defined by the local community standards, trump individual civil rights? This woman’s civil rights are being denied her. Her legal ability to fight for her rights to practice her profession is apparently being circumvented by threats of ostracization, either implied or overt. How is this not an important story? Seercat (talk) 02:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're making a case for keeping the article, which is fine. But since you bring it up, there is no constitutional right to be a teacher, especially a teacher of the underage, so I don't think the civil rights issue would fly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh, so many people don't really understand the US Constitution. Check out Amendment 14, Section 1, the Due Process clause. That would be good a starting place. The idea that the Constitution would have to specifically enumerate each and every right of the individual was and still is a ridiculous idea, one that the Framers didn't fall for. The Constitution reserves all rights to the states and individuals except what it specifically sets aside for the Federal Government.Seercat (talk) 03:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How would due process apply here? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Her right to a hearing to protest her firing was circumvented by the first school district by the quasi legal tactic of paying off her contract, and then they refused to renew it. Her job performance was not an issue apparently. They cited a vague and subjective rational for not renewing it.Seercat (talk) 03:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The most she could expect from them is money, since they can't be forced to give her the job back. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they could be forced to give her job back. Monetary damages in a case like this would be the fall back option.Seercat (talk) 03:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Schools cannot be forced to hire or rehire someone they consider to be a bad influence or a potential danger to the kids. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they could be forced to give her job back. If they had had a hearing, she could have presented her side of the story, and tried to convince the school board that she was a decent teacher. If the school board didn't present proof to the contrary, and fired her anyway, she could have sued to force the school district to give her back her job. The reason that the Due Process Clause is part of the US Constitution is to limit unfair behavior by governmental agencies, and to protect an individual from adverse action that results in detriment. She probably would have prevailed. Seercat (talk) 04:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how. Schools have the right to protect their kids. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The school has a right to teach students that they live in a democracy, one that protects the rights of all individuals. They don't have unlimited power to restrict who can or can not be a teacher. This country was founded on the principle that all are equal in the eyes of the law. I don't dispute that the school had a right to question her qualifications, what I'm saying is that they didn't play fair. And, that was the worst possible lesson they could have taught these students.Seercat (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No one has a constitutional right to any specific job, especially one where they're exposed to an audience considered vulnerable. Can you imagine the outrage in the community if they took her back? Parents would likely sue the school district for putting their children at risk. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Really, you need to brush up on the Constitution. And, read the sources for this article too. The students and their parents supported the teacher. She was put on paid leave until her contract expired against the stated wishes of the parents of her students.Seercat (talk) 05:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do people who worship Satan or are members of NAMBLA have constitutional rights to be school teachers? I would hope not. Brittany Cintron (talk) 04:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First Amendment Freedom of Religion would indicate that they would. Satanists anyway, don't know who NAMBLA is/are so can't comment on them.Seercat (talk) 05:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fired, contract not renewed, same thing in this case. Since there was no hearing, this was what a lawyer would call a constructive discharge.Seercat (talk) 04:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. When you contract for a job, you are entitled to that job for only a specific amount of time. Once that time is up, that's it. You are done. This is very common with teachers. It is only AFTER you get tenure that your job is protected. That is what all the teachers and such are bitching about all across the U.S., that school districts and local governments want to do away with tenure so they can more easily cut budgets. Brittany Cintron (talk) 05:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Worked at UC Berkeley for twenty years, so I know something about how these things work. The question is, if her past had not become an issue, would her contract have been renewed? If it would have been, then the argument that it was just her time to go is meaningless.Seercat (talk) 05:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should have the basic decency not to punish people for something in their past as was done in The Scarlet Letter. No notability as either a teacher or as a porn actress. Just titillating tabloid journalism. Many bio articles such as this have been deleted on the basis of doing the decent thing and avoiding further harm to the subject. Wikipedia is too prominent and too permanent a forum for something such as this. Edison (talk) 04:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
More prominent than USA Today??? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, so you finally admit that your position is based upon a POV in wanting not to "punish" this lady. Morality does not have anything to do with wikipedia articles. If that were the case then a great many articles would be deleted. Anyone who opposes a particular article could then say that the article is immoral in their opinion and have it deleted. I don't see anything immoral about this article. Where or not her acts as a porn star are immoral or as a former porn star now teacher of children are immoral do not matter. Brittany Cintron (talk) 04:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I recall, in the more recent case she basically outed herself. I do share some of Edison's concerns as to whether there's a risk of harm to the subject as per BLP rules. And while I'm arguing in favor of notability. There is still some question about it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a minor point of clarification - a student identified her in a film, and she chose to inform the school. I guess you woudl say she was outed by the student. - Bilby (talk) 04:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What risk of harm do you refer to, Baseball Bugs? That people won't hire her to be a teacher cuz she's a porn star? Guess she shouldn't have done porn then. It's not like anyone is going to beat her up, so I do not see what harm might befall her. And the fact that these news articles are not only local (from the St. Louis area), but national - and international- as well, is not the fault of Wikipedia. It's her fault for not using some commonsense with her career & life decisions.Brittany Cintron (talk) 05:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And you are right, Bilby. I mentioned early on here that she should have just denied it. She looks nothing like she did when she was doing porn. Brittany Cintron (talk) 05:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can we please try to argue by policy here? If there was a significant risk, I would support deletion of the article because, Brittany, that's the point of the BLP policy. Even if there are international newspapers covering this, we (Wikipedians) have the ethical duty of protecting peoples' privacy to a certain extent. However, as I find the risk minimal here, I'm in favor of keeping per the abundance of continuing coverage. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 05:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Yes, but there is a risk of harm to all subjects. Unfortunately, she made a decision in the 1990s and she's received ample coverage from respectable sources for it. There's a risk that our article on Obama's family threatens their safety (because someone could kidnap one relative and use it as leverage against Obama) but we don't delete it because of that. The risk of harm in regards to the article being discussed here is minimal and the article tries to stay neutral and not portray her in a completely bad light (as some news reports have, astonishingly, done). /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 05:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Instead of debating the legal merits of this case, can we please focus on Wikipedia policy-related discussion on whether to include this subject or not? It makes the closing administrator's job more tedious if they have to read paragraphs of irrelevant text, such as the above. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 05:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1060625/
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