Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 74.192.7.135 (talk) at 21:23, 24 April 2011 (→‎Tolerance.org). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


NPOV lead

WP:NPOV also applies to the lead. As well as Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead_section) Please explain the deletion of sourced criticisms. From your edit summary [1] you seem to refer to a lack of consensus. Consensus does not prefer a particular version such as the status quo. Please explain why the lead should not follow NPOV? Miradre (talk) 18:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be an issue of undue weight. The sources you cited don't say The SPLC has been criticized; rather, they criticize the SPLC. To include what is, essentially, a couple of people's opinion as a major point in the lead is the POV issue here - not to exclude it. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Criticism which almost won the Pulitzer Prize. Certainly a major controversy regarding the SPLC which should therefore be mentioned.Miradre (talk) 19:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is a matter of weight as to the significance of a 17 year old newspaper series and a couple of opinion pieces that largely rely on the old article. This was discussed recently and there was no consensus to add this material to the article lead. If you review the history of these article discussion pages you will see that there is a great diversity of opinion but, by and large, people have respected the necessity for making changes only when consensus has been reached. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is certainly no consensus above to not include this. Your description is misleading. The criticism was repeated just last year.[2]Miradre (talk) 20:58, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As well as other controversies: [3] Having no criticism and only praise violates NPOV.Miradre (talk) 21:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your link is simply a 2010 article by Silverstein that quotes Silverstein's 10 year old article which was itself based on the Advertiser articles. Nothing new other than a single sentence listing the SPLC's current reserves. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PS The weaknesses of the criticisms is discussed in the subsection above (1.1 Weaknesses of the finances section). We need to clean up the main body of the article at the same time that we address the identical issue in the lead. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To state there is nothing new is false. Silverstein states: "The SPLC operates on the same basis today. Oh, except its treasury is now up to $175 million or so, bigger than the GNP of some of the world’s smaller nations." You made no comment on the criticism against SLPC by the Center for Immigration Studies.Miradre (talk) 21:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Silverstein has done no new investigation, has he? All he is doing is drawing a conclusion from the size of the reserves. Sources such as the Center for Immigration Studies have been discussed over and over again. The CIS is not a reliable source for providing analysis of the SPLC. You really should look over the archives of his discussion page before repeating arguments and sources that have never received consensus for including. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The question is not if the accusations are Wikipedia:Truth. Wikipedia does not decide that. There has been several notable controversies involving SPLC. As such they should be mentioned in the lead as per NPOV. Currently it is an one-sided hagiography having only praise.Miradre (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment Per WP:LEAD the lead should be a summary of the main points in the article. The criticism is covered in several different sections and I think it is very reasonable to include it in the lead. The question should be one of how to formulate it and how much space to devote to it. I think a compromise could be to devote slightly less than the proposed paragraph. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The SPLC has been criticized, especially by those in the groups who have been labelled hate groups, but they have also received a lot of praise. A NPOV section in the lead would include relevant opinions from the most credible and reliable sources with due weight to varying opinions. Not a hatchet job but not a cheerleading section either. Jnast1 (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It should be noted that neither Silverstein or the Center for Immigration Studies have been labelled hate groups or racists. Here are some more criticism regarding the SPLC. "The SPLC had moved away from its early work in such poverty law fields as death-penalty cases, employment rights, and voting rights because Dees had learned that he could take in more money by exaggerating the size and menace of the Klan.""Black attorneys who had worked at the center complained of systematic discrimination against them at the center" "Donors to the SPLC often had no idea of its vast wealth and were duped into thinking that it was tottering on the brink of financial disaster.""In 2009, liberal journalist Alexander Cockburn called Dees the “arch-salesman of hate-mongering.”"[4]Miradre (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're quoting from the CIS -- nothing in WP:RELIABLE SOURCES justify calling the CIS a reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What makes SPLC's self-published reports more reliable? Miradre (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since the FBI and scholars consider it a reliable source for law enforcement cooperation and scientific research. See the archives for links. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 23:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, they are just repeating accusations by made by others, not making up some themselves.Miradre (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Center for Immigration Studies is frequently called racist.[5][6][7]. Indeed CIS started as a programme of FAIR which is funded by the Pioneer fund which is labelled as a racist hate group by SPLC.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The first source is dubious and lacks any support for stating so (except SPLC), the second source does not refer to the CIS, the third refers to SPLC's self-published report.Miradre (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, I repeat, CIS is not inventing accusations against the SLPC, they are citing criticisms made by others.Miradre (talk) 23:22, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, CIS is making a criticism against an organization that has criticized them.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Unlike SPLC they rely on citing criticisms from others instead of self-published accusations.Miradre (talk) 23:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point remains to look at what reliably sourced and credible comments about the organization have been made and then summarize them all, not just the positive and not just the negative. From the news reports I've read they are are a well-respected group and their work is often cited. That's my opinion though, we should see what all the best sources state. Jnast1 (talk) 23:41, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Beside the sources I have cited, and the sources they cite, here is another. A 2010 Charity review: "Despite written BBB Wise Giving Alliance requests in the past year, this organization has declined to be evaluated in relation to the Alliance’s Standards for Charity Accountability. While participation in the Alliance’s charity review efforts is voluntary, the Alliance believes that failure to participate may demonstrate a lack of commitment to transparency. Without the requested information, the Alliance cannot determine if this charity adheres to the Standards for Charity Accountability. A charity's willing disclosure of information beyond that typically included in its financial statements and government filings is, in the Alliance's view, an expression of openness that strengthens public trust in the charitable sector."[8] Miradre (talk) 23:47, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The key words are "voluntary" and "may". "May" gives equal validity to "may not" -- we don't need to give UNDUE WEIGHT to speculation. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The main point that should be dispositive is that between the Finances section and the Academic assessments subsection there is already more than enough well-sourced criticism of the SPLC for at least a brief mention of this criticism in the lead. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. You've got a 17 year old newspaper series and a few comments by political sources that made no efforts to research the matter themselves. Possibly enough weight to be in the article but certainly not enough to include in the lead. Why go through all this again -- has Miradre added anything to the debate that hasn't been chewed over before? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:11, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's quite true indeed. Uniformly poor or mediocre financial ratings from the only organizations that actually do such ratings. A clear mention of its proneness to exaggerate hate group threats by academic sources. Scathing criticism of the organization as a cash-cow by well-known left-leaning pundits. A Pulitzer-nominated series and nothing to indicate that the SPLC as changed its basic approach since the series was written. No, there's plenty there North Shoreman, for all but the most shillish of editors. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:26, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is simply false:

  • Charity review: [9]
  • Another Charity review giving a F ranking: [10] (Not online)
  • Center for Immigration Reform in a 2007 report also citing many criticisms made by other: [11]
  • Several criticisms by Silverstein, latest one in 2010: [12][13]][14]
  • This is in addition to the older (1994) criticisms that almost won a Pulitzer Prize. Why should it be excluded if even older law cases are cited as praise?Miradre (talk) 00:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • So there are no reliable sources that praise the work or the group? That seems odd. Jnast1 (talk) 00:24, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You need a third party source that provides an opinion on this. Otherwise you are conducting original research. TFD (talk) 00:26, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since when is a third party source needed for newspapers? Why is SPLC's self-published reports reliable but not criticisms against them? Miradre (talk) 00:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both the SPLC and newspapers are reliable sources. Criticisms may be presented provided they are notable. Notability is established through recognition in reliable sources, e.g., newspapers. TFD (talk) 00:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get it. Why is anyone suggesting that reliable criticisms aren't already in the article? Of course, both well-sourced praise for the organization as well as well-sourced negative criticism could and should be briefly presented in the lead. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What is this "well-sourced negative criticism"? TFD (talk) 00:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC):[reply]
At least SPLC's attempt to kill the immigration debate by ad hominem attacks is notable due to all the newspapers that cited it. See: [15] As is obviously the newspaper series that almost won the Pulitzer Prize. Not sure why the catastrophic Charity rankings should be excluded in favor of the hagiographic unsourced material that is currently in the lead.Miradre (talk) 00:56, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I said before it's the material found in the Academic assessments subsection and the Finances section (at the end of the article). Anything else I can help you with, Four Deuces? Badmintonhist (talk) 01:01, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here is more critical material by FAIR: [16][17][18]. Self-published, but so was SPLC's report that attacked fair. See no reason why Wikipedia's page on the Federation for American Immigration Reform should have criticism by SPLC while this page excludes criticism by FAIR.Miradre (talk) 17:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why the SPLC research on FAIR is relevant on the FAIR article is because the SPLC is recognized as a reliable source. FAIR, on the other hand, is not recognized as a reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

'NPOV does not mean hide reliable documented criticism. It means that the article should be balanced and accurate. Last week, I saw where someone placed a SPLC accusation leveled against distinguished scholar (Clyde N. Wilson) at the top of the page, as if SPLC "neo-Confederate label was both relevant and the defining characteristic of the man's career. The very same editors (e.g., Tom [NorthShoreman and Will Beback] that initially defended that edit complain when a similar treatment is given to criticism of the SPLC. I just read a Tom [NorthShoreman] quote today reverting and challenging the Center for Immigration Studies as "an unreliable source." If he is correct, why is the SPLC deemed a reliable source? What is the difference? I submit to you that Tom NorthShoreman is being duplicitous--to protect his biased POV. I am getting sick and tired of the double standard.74.192.7.135 (talk) 01:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Where have I complained about additions to this article?   Will Beback  talk  01:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

.

To repeat, we have worked on this page for a good little while by operating and RESPECTING consensus. Miradre and the IP seem to prefer edit warring to discussion. They need to stop it. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no consensus for a specific version. Material was added after discussion stopped. Do you have more to say to the above?Miradre (talk) 22:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure there is. There is a consensus for the existing version of the lead. Start back at archive 2 and the section "Compromise Solution". This produced a consensus version and every significant change has been discussed and approved by consensus since then.
My position on the current debate is clear. The "Finances" section needs to be balanced and as the article currently stands adding material such as yours to the lead would give undue weight to old and thinly supported views. Sources such as FAIR and CIS are not reliable sources and have no business being discussed here. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is certainly no consensus in the above discussion for your version with many editors disagreeing with you. Whatever may have been stated in archive 2 out 8 is not relevant for the current debate. FAIR and CIS are not more unreliable than SPLC's self-published reports. The lead is currently a hagiography that violates NPOV by only presenting praise and ignores the serious controversies the Fund has been involved in. Furthermore, why did you remove the critical material regarding its transparency as a charity from a charity ranking organization?.Miradre (talk) 23:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus to change the status quo. You have the burden of creating a new consensus.
I explained the problem with the BBB. It is mere speculation, as opposed to facts, as to why the SPLC may have chosen not to provide information. You want to give undue weight to a non-event.
Your opinion on the SPLC as a reliable source is irrelevant. It is widely accepted by both news organizations, government and academics. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus does not prefer a particular version. Numerous editors disagree with your own preferred version above. Not disclosing information to charity ranking organizations is usually seen as serious for a charity. It obviously reduces trust. The views of charity ranking organizations should not be excluded. What governmental and academic sources see the SLPC as reliable? Miradre (talk) 08:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The views of charity ranking organizations might be notable if reliable sources note they are a big deal. If only Wikipedia is doing that then we are certainly giving undue prominence to these ideas. After searching a bit I only found passing mention of this subject with one article listing SPLC among dozens of groups that got a "F"; Are you going to be waging this battle on each of those groups' articles as well? Jnast1 (talk) 00:40, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
None of us are obligated to change what is going on it other articles. Ken Silverstein mentions the SPLC's poor charity ratings in at least one of his Harper's Magazine articles. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:56, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's a mention ten years ago then? I think picking just the words out of context is discouraged. For instance the finances section omits that SPLC doesn't solicit or accept government funds. I would think the section would discuss how enormously accomplished they are at raising funds to ensure their work continues but the section implies the SPLC is duping people out of money they don't need to cover escalating mailing costs. Obviously things changed from the early 1970s. Summarizing the source would give us "The Center was one of the first social action organizations to recognize the importance of saving for the future." (other groups have followed their lead) and "As the nation's diversity increases in the coming years, so will the challenges to promote tolerance and acceptance. [SPLC] has restricted the principal and income from the endowment to cover the costs of future programs and operations. [Those who donate support] daily work [and] the struggle for tolerance and justice — for as long as it is needed." In any case it's very lopsided. I don't know of any non-profit group that wouldn't love to be in their financial position where their work which earns them regular death threats is financially secure for years to come. Many non-profits underpay everyone, struggle and fold or are merged. Jnast1 (talk) 01:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would certainly have no problem with a reliably-sourced mention that the SPLC doesn't solicit or accept government funds. Has anyone been blocking such a mention? As for the "mailing and printing costs" quote, that is their rationale for large endowment set-asides which they presented in a June 2003 article, not a June 1974 article. Since you had earlier used a somewhat out-of-place but noble sounding quote to describe the SPLC's rationale for creating a large endowment, I replaced it with the more prosaic rationale that they actually used in their article. The real point, however, is that we should be using SPLC boilerplate only sparingly and judiciously in this article. Though it's acceptable to use primary sources for non-controversial factual material, Wikipedia articles, in the main, are supposed to be based on reliable secondary sources. Obviously (I think) SPLC statements about their intentions, like any other organization's statements about its own intentions, tend to be self-serving. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Immigration "debate" section

I removed this section, all five sentences, because not only is it highly POV the entire section is devoted to criticism about a single group being hate labelled, it's not about SPLC's immigration platform if they even have one. Is immigration a significant issue to the SPLC? There was no suggestion in the text about it. Jnast1 (talk) 00:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We just went through a similar debate concerning another hate group and no consensus to add it to the article was reached. There are now, I believe, over a thousand designated hate groups and there is no reason to give undue weight to a few. The material you deleted was further flawed since it relied on a non-reliable source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus does not prefer a particular version such as the status quo. Miradre (talk) 08:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Editing policy clearly refers to an “existing consensus” (“Boldness should not mean trying to impose edits against existing consensus”).
Wikipedia:Consensus says, “Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus. Should that edit later be revised by another editor without dispute, it can be assumed that a new consensus has been reached.” The existing language meets the criteria for an existing consensus -- your repeated efforts to insert unagreed on language does not.
The SPLC is a recognized reliable source -- FAIR is not. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:26, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no existing consensus for your own preferred version. Lots of editors disagree with you above. See also Wikipedia:Don't revert due to "no consensus".Miradre (talk) 12:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus to change the status quo. As far as the essay (which is neither a guideline or policy) you reference, I have fully explained (as have others) my objections. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus to keep the status quo. The status quo is not a favored version in the policies. Again, lots of editors disagree with you above.Miradre (talk) 12:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure there is -- reread the links I provided. More importantly, there is no consensus to add your version, is there? The old consensus holds until a new one is developed. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The FBI and the SLPC

The article gives the impression that the FBI endorses SLPC's self-published list of hate groups. That is incorrect, SLPC is only listed as as "resource" on the web page regarding hate crimes. That statement should be moved elsewhere in order to avoid this misleading impression.Miradre (talk) 09:18, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BBB Wise Giving Alliance

BBB Wise Giving Alliance states that "Despite written BBB Wise Giving Alliance requests in the past year, this organization has declined to be evaluated in relation to the Alliance’s Standards for Charity Accountability. While participation in the Alliance’s charity review efforts is voluntary, the Alliance believes that failure to participate may demonstrate a lack of commitment to transparency."[19]

Obviously the views of charity rankings organization on a charity is relevant. This criticisms is thus relevant.Miradre (talk) 13:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. As I've said before "may demonstrate" equally implies "may not demonstrate". This speculation adds nothing factual to the article and adding it would give a non-event undue weight. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is more from the report "Without the requested information, the Alliance cannot determine if this charity adheres to the Standards for Charity Accountability. A charity's willing disclosure of information beyond that typically included in its financial statements and government filings is, in the Alliance's view, an expression of openness that strengthens public trust in the charitable sector." This view is particular relevant due to the earlier claims of dubious financial activities.Miradre (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So the BBB has a problem. It still doesn't offer any relevant factual information about the SPLC, does it? Your attempt to link a general policy statement to other sources is simply SYNTHESIS. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That the SPLC refuses to be transparent in regards to its charity activities is a fact.Miradre (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The word "may" clearly negates any effort by you to pass it off as a fact. In fact, the SPLC complies with all legal disclosure requirements, doesn't it? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "may" in second quote. Which also explains why going beyond the legal minimum is desirable.Miradre (talk) 14:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The second quote is not part of the evaluation of the SPLC -- it simply states a general belief of the BBB and it is synthesis to apply it to the SPLC. When they get around to discussing the SPLC, they use the word "may". Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 11:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The CIS report

Has been mentioned in by other media like here: [20] This criticism and controversy should be mentioned.Miradre (talk) 13:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant. The second source you cite is not a reliable source. More importantly, this is also a matter of undue weight. Hate groups and the defenders of hate groups often attack the SPLC. Why give undue weight to this single claim when over a thousand such hate groups have been identified? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why is not the The American Conservative a reliable source for things like notability? If there are numerous "hate-groups", as claimed by SPLC, which are critical, then we should include more critical views, if such views are notable. Do you have other notable sources criticizing the SPLC?Miradre (talk) 14:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is based on reliable sources -- there is no lower threshold for sources in determining notability. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is not exactly true. A thing may be notable just because it appears in numerous sources. Regardless, why would The American Conservative be an unreliable source? Or the CIS report itself? Miradre (talk) 14:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTABILITY refers ONLY to whether a topic merits its own article. What we are discussing is governed by WP:UNDUE. This states, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint."
The American Conservative is not a news site but is a venue for political commentary from a conservative viewpoint. WP:NOTRELIABLE states, "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or lacking meaningful editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional, or which rely heavily on rumor and personal opinion." Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 11:28, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Editorials are generally not notable. You would need to show that this specific editorial had received widespread notice in mainstream news media or in academic writing. TFD (talk) 11:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tolerance.org

The Tolerance.org subsection has all sorts of quotes, presumably from SPLC materials, that are not properly sourced. Moreover, the whole thing is written pretty much like a treacly promo for SPLC educational programs. I'd like to hear what other editors think before making changes. Badmintonhist (talk) 14:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I believe it is a friends of the SPLC piece, since so many are trying to block all reliably sourced criticism of the SPLC.74.192.7.135 (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good writing versus bad

Apparently IP editor 74.192.7.135 has a problem distinguishing good writing from bad writing. Beginning an article section by saying "starting in 1974, the SPLC set aside money for its endowment . . ." and then one sentence later saying "starting in 1974 the SPLC utilized fundraising efforts to build up its endowment . . ." is basically redundant and poor writing. This is what my edits were intended to correct. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful if 74.192.7.135 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) were to join the discussion here and to identify the specific "reliable source material" that s/he is restoring. Otherwise s/he should let the edit of Badmintonhist stand. --Walter Siegmund (talk) 14:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Error noted. My apologies for the unintended problem which I restored. I will exercise greater care in the future.74.192.7.135 (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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