Talk:Fuel cell

Definition change

I vote to change the intro to

A fuel cell is an electrochemical cell that produces electricity from a replenishable fuel tank. The electricity is generated trough the reaction, triggered in the presence of an electrolyte, between the fuel (on the anode side) and an oxidant (on the cathode side). The reactants flow into the cell, and the reaction products flow out of it, while the electrolyte remains within it. Fuel cells can operate virtually continuously as long as the necessary flows are maintained.

Fuel cells are different from conventional electrochemical cell batteries in that they consume reactant from an external source, which must be replenished[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk) 11:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a good change. I don't think it's correct to call any kind of battery a closed thermodynamic system. Hmoulding (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the definition of a thermodynamically closed system one where the boundaries do not allow passage of mass, but does allow passage of energy? A battery is a pretty good approximation of this and a fuel cell is not. Are you sure you are not thinking of an isolated system? User A1 (talk) 19:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Dear Y'all Scientists -- Regarding the word "cell," I believe it's improper to use the word that you're defining in the definition. Without even getting past the first sentence of your article, the beginner is immediately forced to switch to someone else's article to find out what a "cell" is.

I might recommend simply using the synonym "battery" (if that might be accurate). If you want to be more elaborate, you might start with a quick definition of "cell," and then get more specific defining the fuel cell. Thanks,Nei1 (talk) 00:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

SOFC contradiction

when talking about solid oxide fuel cells the example used with methanol is actually proton exchange membrane fuel cell. I have come to this conclusion because the description suggests that after methanol is catalytically broken up the H+ produced transfers to react with oxygen to create water. Solid oxide fuel cells do not do this. They transfer O2- ions from the oxygen side to react with methanol, as it says both in this article and the main SOFC article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_oxide_fuel_cell

I would correct myself, but I don't know an appropriate example to replace this glaring error with and I don't want to cause any similar errors.

Methane-CO2-fuel cells

Aren't the "batteries" made by Mehran Keshe also fuel cells ? -->http://keshefoundation.com/powercells/ add in article 91.182.45.110 (talk) 08:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

From a cursory look at the Keshe Foundation's website, it seems like they have a lot of new physics which if true would be all over PRL, Science, Nature, and the popular press. Since it isn't, I can only conclude that they're full of shit. eigenlambda (talk) 01:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality of "In Practice" section.

"It is also important to take losses due to fuel production, transportation, and storage into account. Fuel cell vehicles running on compressed hydrogen may have a power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the hydrogen is stored as high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as liquid hydrogen.[29] In addition to the production losses, over 70% of US' electricity used for hydrogen production comes from thermal power, which only has an efficiency of 33% to 48%, resulting in a net increase in carbon dioxide production by using hydrogen in vehicles[citation needed]. However, more than 90% of all hydrogen is produced by steam methane reforming.[30]"

This passage uses several inconclusive points as evidence as drawbacks for the technology. "...hydrogen 'may' have a power-to-plant...", the information states numeric values that are not really given a true definition or contrast with current power-trains. An 'as high as xx% and as low as xx%" statement should be used to prevent non-neutral ambiguity.

A citation is critical for the power grid origin for hydrogen production and does not state the efficiency of hydrogen production, only the efficiency of electricity production. This to say, if a 100,000 tonnes of hydrogen gas are produced for every KW/h consumed, the environmental impact swing in favor of Hydrogen. If only 1 Tonne of hydrogen is produced for every MW/h consumed then it is extremely inefficient.

On these grounds I am removing the section for lack of neutrality and requesting a fact check. I will post findings here, so lets get this article straightened out.

Daniellis89 (talk) 21:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Efficiency Section

The Efficiency section is a pure copy paste from another source and may be a product of original research, suggest complete rewrite to conform to wikipedia standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniellis89 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

180.149.16.211 (talk) 11:53, 21 May 2011 (UTC)what is the maximum efficiency of a fuel cell??

Applications Section

I found a lot of out-dated information in this section that I am going to update.

Power Section- The fuel cell market has expanded a lot in the last few years, and I am updated and expanding the information in this section to reflect these developments. Stationary fuel cells have also been used by many different companies in addition to Stuart Island, so I will add in more examples.

Combined Heat and Power- Information is out of date and there are few citations (many are broken or now re-directed), I am updating information and including more recent sources.

Hydrogen transportation and refueling- This title isn't very clear, I will change to Fuel Cell Transportation Vehicles and Hydrogen Refiling,

Land Vehicles- As there are many different types of fuel cell land vehicles I will change title to Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEVs) as this is the name the industry generally refers to when talking about cars. Most of the information in this section is not relevant to FCEVs and is out of date. I will take out old information and update the section with recent numbers from the Department of Energy. (DOE) There have also been a lot more FCEVs developed in the last few years, I will add more recent developments from major auto manufacturers.

Aircraft, Boats and Submarines- I will add to these section to include more recent developments

Fuel Cell Forklifts- One of the major Fuel Cell applications is Forklifts for the material handling industry, I will create a section that talks about forklifts.

Fueling Stations- A lot of this information is out of date with broken links, I will update and include more up-to-date sources.

Market Structure- I will take this section out of applications and combine it with Fuel Cell Economics as that seems to make more seance.

Briannabesch (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cells

There are several pieces of information in this section of the Fuel Cell Wikipedia page that I found to be either out of date, not cited, or wrong. I would like to change these facts on the page.

Currently on Wikipedia: "In 2002, typical fuel cell systems cost US$1000 per kilowatt of electric power output." Correct statement: "In 2002 projected improvements in performance and operation on hydrogen led to an estimate of approximately $100/kW for the system cost" Source: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/tiax_cost_analysis_pres.pdf

Currently on Wikipedia: "In 2008 UTC Power has 400 kW stationary fuel cells for $1,000,000 per 400 kW installed costs" Correction: UTC does not list their prices, and there are many different payment options, tax incentives, etc. so I don't think we should include a price on the Wikipedia page. It is misleading.

Currently on Wikipedia: "The production costs of the PEM (proton exchange membrane). The Nafion membrane currently costs $566/m²" Correction: In 2005, NREL studies showed that with the average cost of Nafion at $80/lb, a Nafion membrane would cost about $23/m^2. The high end of membrane cost is about $27/m^2. Source: http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/39104.pdf

LhamillFC (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

SOFC

This is a great section, but there are certain areas that need more explanation.

Currently on Wikipedia: "A major disadvantage of the SOFC, as a result of the high heat, is that it 'places considerable constraints on the materials which can be used for interconnections'." The source for this fact is out of date... There is much research being conducted on SOFCs that are dealing with these problems, so a source from 2010 (11 years ago) does not seem like it should be included.

Currently on Wikipedia: "Another disadvantage of running the cell at such a high temperature is that other unwanted reactions may occur inside the fuel cell. It is common for carbon dust (graphite) to build up on the anode, preventing the fuel from reaching the catalyst." Again... there is much research being done on SOFCs including research that addresses this problem. I think that this information: "The anode or fuel side electrode typically is composed of a cermet-containing YSZ and Ni metal. The Ni metal acts as a catalyst for the oxidation of the fuel. Among the problems faced with a Ni cermet anode is Ni metal coarsening (sintering) during use, as well as the buildup of carbon deposits on the surface (coking) during internal reforming of the fuel. Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania have shown that the use of copper (Cu)-based cermets dramatically reduces coking and loss of performance during service due to coking." should be included Source: http://www.ceramicindustry.com/Articles/Feature_Article/10637442bbac7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

Currently on Wikipedia: "Much research is currently being done to find alternatives to YSZ that will carry ions at a lower temperature." There is also research being done to reduce the temperature while still using YSZ. Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775308002243

LhamillFC (talk) 20:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)