Talk:Pallar
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A Big Fine Mess
I can barely make head nor tail of this article: duplicate sections with slightly differing wording, no formating to speak of, a mix of lore with fact. The problems are innumerable. I'm going to cut huge swatches from this. I may make mistakes but it is impossible to read in this form. Pigman 03:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I've made a pass through it and cut duplicate sections and did some minor formatting, mostly to break up the huge blocks of text. I'm not familiar with the subject but there are massive POV problems with it. I'm having trouble differentiating between what seems to be religious (and apparently at least partially legendary) history and concrete history. This article needs an expert and to be refined down to pertinent facts. It rambles and the sections are not properly titled or organized. I may be back to work on it but I doubt it; it's just too overwhelming for me. Pigman 04:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
POV and original research vs. scientific angle
The problem with most articles about Indian castes is that there is too much POV. In an encyclopedia, the article about a people group should be as close to the anthropological/ethnological/ethnographic point of view as possible.
Caste-promotion should be left aside. It is of no interest to the readers, and it reflects social/political agendas that are mostly POV. Signed: Shiva 122.162.165.45 (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
help regarding history of dalits in indian freedom movement against british imperialist
help regarding history of dalits in indian freedom movement against british imperialist
moderators are asking reliable source for dalits freedom movement
dalit political leaders should help in updating dalits battle against british imperialist Raja.m82 (talk) 08:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please do not make live articles without appropriate reliable sources - please re-read WP:FIRST. You can work on articles in your own userspace, before making them live - WP:USERSPACEDRAFT. Chzz ► 08:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
i will come with reliable sources about dalits involvement in freedom struggle against british imperialism i need some time because of some constraints
i will come with reliable sources about dalits involvement in freedom struggle against british imperialism i need some time because of some constraints
without evidence i will not edit about dalits freedom fighters againt british imperialism becuase i believe in non feudalistic democracy journalism Raja.m82 (talk) 12:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
please who deleted pasupathy pandian founder of devenderar vellalar kootamimipu (also from pallar community)
please who deleted pasupathy pandian founder of devenderar vellalar kootamimipu (also from pallar community) should update his history in wikepedia to understand the struggle of dalits
ur deletion thinks u want monopoly in leadership of pallar community to a particular doctor from that community
ur approach is not good for a good democracyRaja.m82 (talk) 07:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Please dont fight in the notable people section
There is a lot of fight going on in the notable people section.So i have deleted it.This is for everyone to notice please dont fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamil1988 (talk • contribs) 07:47, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Problem with the figure for population.
The figure given for Pallar population: 1.5 crores is unbelievable. Considering only the Tamil Nadu's population of 6,24,05,679 from Census 2001 data and the fact that the Scheduled Caste population for Tamil Nadu in that Census 2001 is 1,18,57,504 , it works out to be 2.54 percentage points more than the whole Scheduled Caste population.
Percentage of Pallars according to this site: 24.03
Percentage of total Scheduled Caste population according to Census 2001: 21.49
You might ask to consider the population in the rest of the world. But consider this:
The Tamil speaking population according to Wikipedia under 'Tamil People' is 7,70,00,000.
Again the percentage you give is 19.5% of all Tamil speaking people. Still not believable.
These figures are important. They show the reliability of the content that's being read. Do something about this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnrameshkhan (talk • contribs) 20:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
About the population
According to the census of 2001 the population of pallar is not 1.5 crore. So what is the reason for denoting the population as 1.5 crore. The reason is many people belonging to this caste were mentioned as Adidravidar in the census. So their population became very less according to the census. These people live in all the districts in Tamilnadu largely except northern districts where they are found very less. Also the subcaste of the Devendar kula vellalar such as Kaaladi,moopan are present in Backward class and Mannadi present in MBC. So the population is mentioned as 1.5 crore. The exact population of the Devendra kula vellalar will be available after the caste population calculation which is going to take place in 2011.Tamil1988 (talk) 06:34, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Census Data of each Tamil Dalit caste.
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Tables_Published/SCST/dh_sc_tamilnadu.pdf Johnrameshkhan (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)rjrk
Please dont use the word 'Dalit'
Please dont use the word 'Dalit' when you are mentioning about 'Devendra kula vellalar'. This is a request on behalf of the 'Devendra kula vellalar' people. Our people get hurt by that word.117.193.65.107 (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Please dont fight in the notable people section
It is not good if you continue to fight in the notable people section. I will remove it completely. Fighting to put the names of your favorite politician and removing the politician names whom you dont like. Are you all children fighting like this. No one is concerned to improve this article. Simply fighting for names then how other's will respect this community people.Tamil1988 (talk) 07:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Devaneya Pavanar
As per Pavanar's moziyarachi katturaikal (மொழியாராய்ச்சிக் கட்டுரைகள்) his grand father name is Muthusamy Thevar, so Pavanar does not belong to Pallar. --Kurumban (talk) 02:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Condemn
Devaneya pavanar belongs to 'Devendra kula vellalar' caste. There is no such caste called 'Thevar' in the entire list of cates in Tamilnadu. Please mention any valid name, also if you want to mention about 'Devendra kula vellalar' use 'Devendra kulathar' it is present in the list. I condemn your comments.Tamil1988 (talk) 11:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Tamil quotes
In this article iam interested in adding two Tamil quotes from 9th and 10th century Tamil dictionary. Which is only 2 lines in length. And iam also going to explain its meaning in English. Since this article is controlled by admin i need your views on this matter.Tamil1988 (talk) 16:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- What do they say in English and what do you intend for them to support? Any documents of that age will almost necessarily count as primary sources, which means we have to be careful and not interpret their meaning in any way. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I dont want to interpret their meaning in any way. I will give the meaning for them in English as same as their meaning in the Tamil. They are to be mentioned to support the claim that there was a caste with the name Mallar and their work is mentioned as farming and fighting.Tamil1988 (talk) 04:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
List of notables
...they must stay removed until a reliable source verifies that the people are/were in the Pallar/Mallar caste. The citation can be either here or on the linked Wikipedia article, but it must be verified or they cannot be listed. WP:NLIST clarifies that there are absolutely no exceptions to this for living people, and it is generally true for deceased people, though verification is always better. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
"Notable people section should be added to this article because not all the names mentioned there are non verified specially two names like Immanuvel Devendrar and Veeran Sundaralingam are verified. You could have removed the non verified name until they have been verified.Tamil1988 (talk) 04:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I just read every reference on Immanuvel Devendrar (except the last one, which isn't online) and not one of them verifies which caste his is in. The article says he is Devendra kula vellalar, but it doesn't support that with a reliable source. Veeran does seem to be verified, so I'll put him back (it wasn't directly linked, but it's there, so my mistake). Qwyrxian (talk) 08:35, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Why every time the list of notable persons deleted from this Mallar page. The list provided are very much true.
These are the references:
- Read the june edition of the mazagine - Source: http://www.maruthamalar.com.co.in/
- http://www.pallar.org/pallar/people.htm
- Read all the news related to paramakudi. Just type in google the word paramakudi you will come to know the mallar people.
Sundarapandian1978 (talk) 06:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Neither of the first to are reliable sources per WP:RS. As for the third, it's up to the person who wants to include the info to provide the sources--you can't just tell us to search for them. Reliable sources include articles in major newspapers, academic journals or books, some government publications, etc. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
More references for notable people:
- http://savukku.net/home1/1250-2011-09-15-14-48-51.html
- http://savukku.net/home1/1241-2011-09-14-09-15-52.html
- http://savukku.net/home1/1233-7-.html
- http://savukku.net/home1/1228-2011-09-11-15-54-56.html
- http://www.vinavu.com/2011/09/12/dalits-killed/
- http://www.vinavu.com/2009/09/18/emmanuel-sekaran/
Also don't forget to read the comments below in the article by public people.
Sundarapandian1978 (talk) 06:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- You need to read WP:RS. Blogs and other self-published websites are almost never reliable. Comments on any site are even less reliable. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
More references for notable people and they belong to the Mallar community:
- http://www.hindu.com/2000/04/20/stories/0420223h.htm - For John Pandian
- http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/article2455650.ece
- http://news.oneindia.in/2006/04/08/dalit-leaders-wife-hacked-to-death-in-gang-attack-1144450966.html
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasupathy_Pandian
- http://election.dinamalar.com/Constituency_main.php - In this page the constituency named (தனி) means reserved for schedule caste. It can be either for pallars / parayars. So click on the constituency named (தனி) and know who won. Only the people who won in constituency named (தனி) and that too who belonged to Mallar community were listed in the notable persons.
- http://election.dinamalar.com/Candidates.php?id=687
- http://election.dinamalar.com/Candidates.php?id=688
- http://www.koodal.com/news/shownews.asp?id=43736&title=maaveeran-imanuel-sekaran-remembered-news-in-tamil
- http://www.maalaimalar.com/2011/03/19154601/tirunelveli-candidate-Pasupath.html
- http://www.inneram.com/2011041115432/nellai-district-last-movement - தேவேந்திரகுல வேளாளர் சமுதாயத்தின் ஓட்டு வங்கிதான் வெற்றியை நிர்ணயிப்பதாக உள்ளது
- http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl1522/15220380.htm
- http://www.hindu.com/2001/05/07/stories/15072238.htm
- http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/31/stories/2008033154830700.htm
- http://www.dinamalar.com/news_detail.asp?Id=48481
- http://www.dinamalar.com/News_Detail.asp?Id=21168
- http://www.dinamalar.com/News_Detail.asp?Id=209713&Print=1
- http://www.dinamalar.com/News_Detail.asp?Id=59596&Print=1
- http://www.dinamalar.com/news_detail.asp?Id=287296&Print=1
- http://www.dinamalar.com/News_Detail.asp?Id=170062&Print=1
- http://www.dinamalar.com/news_detail.asp?Id=241980 - தேவேந்திரகுல வேளாளர் சமுதாயத்திற்கு முக்கியத்துவம் அளிக்கும் வகையில், கருப்பசாமிக்கு கால்நடைத்துறை அமைச்சர் பதவியும்
- http://www.dinamalar.com/News_Detail.asp?Id=43583&Print=1
- http://www.maalaimalar.com/2011/01/08154933/leader-puratchi-kavithasan-int.html
- http://www.dinakaran.com/News_detail_2011.asp?Nid=435
- http://www.dinakaran.com/Obama-india-visit-details.aspx?id=22768&id1=4
- http://dinamani.com/edition/estory.aspx?Title=%E0%AE%9A%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%82%E0%AE%95+%E0%AE%92%E0%AE%B1%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B1%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88+%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%81&artid=379726&SectionID=137&MainSectionID=137&SectionName=Edition-Madurai&SEO=
- http://www.dinamani.com/edition/story.aspx?&SectionName=Edition-Madurai&artid=267310&SectionID=137&MainSectionID=137&SEO=&Title=%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%B1%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%81%20%E0%AE%B5%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B3%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%AF%E0%AF%80%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%81
- http://www.dinamani.com/edition/print.aspx?artid=395166
- http://diverseeducation.com/article/16252/
And lot more references for the notable people in Mallar community. The above are reputed Indian newspaper websites. Do read and understand the reputation of the notable people in Mallar community. Also you will understand how these people work hard for the community's uplift.
After reading all the news articles i want to re-enter all the names in the notable people list. Please take this a kind request and hope it is as per wiki rules & laws.Sundarapandian1978 (talk) 07:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm trying to assume you're contributing in good faith....but you're being extraordinarily unhelpful. First, list each source with a specific person. It's not my job (or anyone else's) to go through each of the articles and see which ones verify which person. Second, some of these are still very clearly not RS, likke the "diverseeducation" or wikipedia articles. Third, for any of the non-English ones, you're going to need to provide a translation of exactly which person and what the article says that indicates the person is Pallar. Here's what you should do: make a list, below (not in a new section, just right below this comment). Put the person's name you want, followed by the citation. Include only citations that meet WP:RS. If the citation is not in English, translate the relevant sentence. Do not include anyone who does not have a Wikipedia article (we'll deal with those later, as we need more specific info out of the source than just verification that they are Pallar). I'm not trying to be mean, but I do need to know what it is I'm looking for in each citation before figuring out if it's sufficient. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think this user has bypassed this conversation altogether. See: List of Mallar / Devendra Kula Vellalar / Pallar. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 15:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have requested speedy deletion of that page under A10 (G12 also applies since it copies this article w/o attribution), and given a very stern warning to Sundarapandian1978. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you Qwyrxian. I agree. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 03:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have requested speedy deletion of that page under A10 (G12 also applies since it copies this article w/o attribution), and given a very stern warning to Sundarapandian1978. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think this user has bypassed this conversation altogether. See: List of Mallar / Devendra Kula Vellalar / Pallar. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 15:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- On a sidenote, Sundarapandian1978, you also can't put "Thiru" in front of everyone's name. Honorifics are not used in Wikipedia, except perhaps in the lede of a specific person's bio to indicate any special titles (knighthood, doctorate, religious titles) that they may have achieved. Generic titles of respect before names are not NPOV. MatthewVanitas (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
See the Pallar talk page for references, for what you have asked. In future before deleting, you better surf and search. If you want more i will be glad to provide more references in pallar talk page. Hope you know how to use google. Google have all the references you have. I have given the notable people name only after referring all possible data, and never gave any random names. And it is not necessary for us to give any random names for our community. So kindly you better read the references and undo the changes you have done.
Please read the references & undo the changes what you have done.
T0 User talk:Dr.K. Sundarapandian1978 (talk) 07:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please read what user Qwyrxian tells you above. I agree with what he tells you. Also specifically with First, list each source with a specific person. It's not my job (or anyone else's) to go through each of the articles and see which ones verify which person.. I couldn't have said it better myself. Also your hope that "I can use Google" has been fulfilled. I do. But *I do not have to use it* for the reasons that user Qwyrxian has told you above. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 15:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is way out of whack with scholarly focus - no mention of Dalits, OBC violence, etc?
I've done some basic glancing at gBooks to see what comes up with "Pallar". Turns out there's a ton of fascinating stuff about Dalit vs. OBC caste politics and extensive violence, issues of feminism, caste redefinition, etc. Basically none of which is in this article except in a very between-the-lines way in mentioning their name change. Most of the article is political argument for the Mallar and Pallar being the same, and the Pallar having been important people prior to Great Historical Wrongs which put them in their current (not mentioned in the article) low status. Most of this article needs to be wiped, the political argument removed and then summarised as a description of the argument, not a defence of it. Plus most of the "Origin" doesn't even mention the Mallar (the supposed origin), so is a ton of scene-setting better handled by wikilinks. This article really needs a hard look at what the academic and journalistic worlds find most noteworthy about the Pallar, not a place for the Pallar to propagandise, or demand the word "Dalit" not be used to spare feelings. Denying a people's history, even or especially when it isn't all unicorns and sunshine, is doing nobody a favour. MatthewVanitas (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- First of all Dalit is not a name these people like to be tagged with them. Also the word Dalit is unconstitutional which is mostly used by the media to refer the whole scheduled caste. The constitution of India does not allow anyone to use the name other than Scheduled caste to refer to the caste belonging to Scheduled caste. If anyone uses anyother names to refer to Scheduled caste it is an offence. That is the reason why that word is not used in this article. Also the violence and caste clashes between these people and other caste was mentioned in this article but it was removed by the administrator. You have put the name Devendra kula vellalar and mentioned that it means that they are created by Devendra to serve the vellalar caste. It is a wrong statement Devendra kula vellalar means they are agriculturist who are the descendance of Devendra. They are not slaves who would serve other caste by the creation of god. Please read Tamilnadu governments history to know about this people. They are only mentioned as agriculturist not as serving other caste. Gbooks does not have all the books about these people so we could not take into account some books which have some information about these people. Origin which you have mentioned above actually tells about the Mallar. Devendra kula vellalar name is mentioned in the origin because to explain the reason why these people are using this name to refer themselves.Tamil1988 (talk) 12:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Several points:
- Neither "the Indian government doesn't allow it" nor "it hurts peoples' feelings" are legitimate reasons to remove the absolutely vital word "Dalit" from the article. Major Indian newspapers used that term to refer to the Pallar not four days ago, so who are we to censor it: "The founder of Gospel Lutheran Christian Union that worked for the emancipation of the Pallar sub-caste among the Dalits".[1] I can't imagine how anyone is expected to understand the Pallars' situation without understanding their Dalit history; this seems terrible whitewashing.
- The source linked appeared to translate the term as "serving the Vellar". I have removed that comment for the moment, but will re-check the source and look for further details.
- I'm not particularly interested in history as published by the Tamil Nadu government, since they may have their own agenda, so I'd prefer to look at publications by academics specialising in South India.
- The Origin I mentioned does not "actuall tell about the Mallar", it takes forever to get to even the slightest mention of them, and that sets aside entirely the issue of whether the Mallar are the Pallar. If it's a contested point, we should have a page for Mallar, and this article can explain, in brief "Pallar may be Mallar, here are a few theories" and some footnotes. Having entire sections whose titles imply "evidence that the Mallar theory is right" are clearly POV.
- Hope this clarifies, please do not remove the term "Dalit" again with such subjective arguments. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Several points:
I appreciate your action of removing the comment 'serving the vellalar'. The source that you were mentioning might be from a foreign author during the British rule. I too have studied that information. But majority of authors dont accept it. Also we should give respect to the history of Tamilnadu written by scholars from Tamilnadu. Hope you dont post that comment again because it will lead to many concerns. I dont object the term 'Dalit' because these people are continuously becoming victims of caste violation. I can understand your point but my point is these people does not like this term. In the past they have filed case against the newspapers who have mentioned them as 'Dalit'. It may hurt their sentiments. They believe that no one else has the right to name them. They themselves have the right to name themselves. The history part in this article is the history of this people first written by this people and then by other authors. Now this history is accepted by most of the Tamil professors,Tamil scholars,Historians,archaeologist in Tamilnadu. Some of them are mentioned in this article.
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