Talk:Boric acid

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What makes boron compounds toxic to insects but not mammals?

What makes boron compounds toxic to insects but not mammals? njh 06:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Boric acid IS toxic to mammals. It's just not toxic enough that incidental contact is of any concern. —The preceding comment is by 216.153.178.21 (talk • contribs) July 18, 2006 19:04 (UTC)

The above is false. Boric acid used as antiseptic eyedrops in infants is dangerous as enough is absorbed to cause hemolysis of the red blood cells to cause kidney problems and anemia.

If boric acid is used on injured skin enough can be absorbed to do the same thing in adults, it is a basic pharmacological quality of boric acid to do this. My only guess is that people with a financial stake in boric acid would recklessly give out such information to support its uses in people. I am tired of trying to correct this misinformation, see Goodman and Gillman's: Pharmacological Basis of Theraputics, or any other Pharmacology text that is commonly used in medical schools to support these facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.163.227 (talk) September 27, 2006 20:59 (CDT)

If, however, a pet or child, for example, were to suddenly ingest a non-trivial amount (e.g. a handful or even a spoonful) all at once, it would be cause to seek immediate emergency care.

In other words, if you are handling it and accidentally consume some of the free-floating dust, it is unlikely to harm you because it will be quickly processed and evacuated. If, however, boric acid spilled into your sugar container, and you blindly took a big gulp of it thinking you were eating a big spoon of sugar, you would be wise to immediately call for emergency care. Note that the same would be true if you consumed an abnormally large amount of salt (referencing the comparison in the article) in one big gulp by accident. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I believe that around 20g of either is enough of a concentration to overload the kidneys and cause fatal poisoning in an adult. On the flipside, 20g is also very, very difficult to consume unintentionally.

The mechanism in insects is twofold: firstly, insects have a much smaller mass than most mammals and ingesting smaller amounts results in a larger percentage of their mass being comprised of the chemical compound. Secondly, insect metabolisms and chemical composition are significantlyl different than those of mammals, and they are simply susceptible to different poisons. You don't see that disparity occur as often between different mammalian species because the genetic composition differs less between, for example, a dog and its owner than between that owner and a silverfish he's attempting to kill. --216.153.178.21 19:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"However, it is toxic to unborn infants, and on the testicles of boys. Also, it has been associated with low birth weight, eye malformations and problems with the nervous system." This is a weak and confusing sentence and should be fixed. It reads like putting boric acid on your testicles is bad, as if anyone would ever do that. 66.90.150.79 00:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

B(OH)₄⁻

What is the name of the anion B(OH)₄⁻? I can't find a definitive answer anywhere! The only name I've seen is borate, but that is also used to refer to BO₃³⁻. The only reason I want to know is because I've made an image of the structure of this anion and before I can upload it, I need to give it a filename!

Cheers

Ben 22:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to CAS: CA Index Name: Borate(1-), tetrahydroxy- (9CI); Other Names: Borate (BO45-), tetrahydrogen (8CI); Borate (B(OH)41-); Tetrahydroxoborate(1-); Tetrahydroxyborate(1-).

My favorite among those would be tetrahydroxyborate. Itub 23:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The "bible" (Holleman and Wiberg) also say tetrahydroxyborate. It explains that B(OH)3 (orthoboric acid, also called boric acid) is a very weak Lewis acid (not Bronsted) and apparently picks up the extra hydroxide somewhat reluctantly.--Smokefoot 23:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good stuff. Thanks, gentlemen. I have, accordingly, created the article tetrahydroxyborate. See if you might like to contribute to it.

Ben 23:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you think that BO₃³⁻ actually exists? Both boric acid and borate explain that H₃BO₃ does not dissociate protolytically: the acid equilibrium is:

B(OH)₃ + H₂O ⇌ B(OH)₄⁻ + H⁺

K_a = 5.8x10⁻¹⁰ mol/l; pK_a = 9.24.

NaB(OH)₄ is stoichiometrically equivalent to NaBO₂·2H₂O, and will dehydrate to sodium metaborate if you heat it strongly enough. But sodium borate is not Na₃BO₃, at least as far as I've ever seen (although a fusion of the mixed oxides would be quite interesting: it would probably give... a mixed oxide!) Physchim62 (talk) 00:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I read this in Greenwood & Earnshaw:

monomeric triangular BO₃ units exist in rare-earth orthoborates, M^IIIBO₄

so I assumed BO₃³⁻, whether it really exists or not aside, was named orthoborate.

Would it not be possible to form BO₃³⁻ fleetingly in the gas phase? If so, the species would need a name.

Even if BO₃³⁻ doesn't exist, that doesn't necessarily mean B(OH)₄⁻ assumes the title borate. Considering the immense structural diversity of boron oxoanions, I thought a common one like B(OH)₄⁻ would have its own distinct name.

At least I had a term to name my images and the article!

Ben 00:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, BO₃³⁻ is listed by Chemical Abstracts as "borate" (also "orthoborate") and has its own registry number. I don't know for sure under which conditions it exists, but certainly tetrahydroxyborate is a less-ambiguous name for B(OH)₄⁻. Itub 00:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, more details for borate then :) ! Physchim62 (talk) 07:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Boric acid and animal fat

Will Boric acid disolve in animal fat? 71.100.167.232 03:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Highly unlikely that it will do so in significant quantities, it is hydrophilic. Observer31 (talk) 03:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ortho boric acid: toxicity?

The article mentions that boric acid is also known as orthoboric acid, and provides the formula H₃BO₃. Then it goes on to mention a couple other substances that are formed by heating boric acid to very high temperatures, and says they are also known as boric acid. This brings me to two questions:

Is ortho boric acid the same as H₃BO₃, or is it a different form of boric acid?
Is ortho boric acid as safe as, or safer than, or less safe than other commonly-used pesticides, such as indoor pyrethrin-based insecticides? Is the toxicity of boric acid more specific (to invertebrates or arthropods) or less specific than that of the pyrethrin derivatives?

69.140.164.142 02:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orthoboric acid is the same as H₃BO₃: it is by far the commonest form of boric acid, and the only one that most people are likely to come accross.
Orthoboric acid is about as safe as insecticides come (although the same could be said for pyrethroids in household preparations). It does have a measurable toxicity to mammals, particularly if it can get directly into the bloodstream (see the note at the top of this talk page), but it is relatively low. It is considered safe enough to be permitted as a preservative in foods in the European Union (number E284), but not, I believe, in the U.S. Pyrethroids are pretty non-toxic to humans as well, although they can cause asthma in sensitive indviduals. Both boric acid and pyrethroids can be irritating to the skin, especially on prolonged or repeated contact, and for this reason it is a good idea to wash your hands after using either chemical (any chemical, in fact). As with all household chemicals, they should be stored well out of reach of children.

Hope this answers your query. Physchim62 (talk) 02:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When comparing the toxicity of Boric acid to other insecticides (pyrethrum and pyrethroids) you may be trying to compare apples to oranges. When talking of using BA powder as an insecticide it will be at 97%-99% strength, where the pyrethrum or pyrethroid products will contain only a fraction of one percent of the active ingredient. So the "insecticide" boric acid powder can be 50 to over 200 times more toxic than the "insecticide" using a pyrethrum or pyrethroid as the active ingredient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.238.19 (talk) 06:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I invite you fellow editors to read the EPA TRED on the topic. Testicular toxicity in dogs has been noted at fairly low concentrations (32 mg/kg bw/day) after 90 days. 04:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observer31 (talk • contribs)

That is not a "low concentration" — it corresponds to more than two grams per day for an adult male! Most substances are toxic at such doses. Physchim62 (talk) 13:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but are humans more or less sensitive than dogs? We don't know. Are some individuals more sensitive than others due to genetic diversity? Most probably. What about small kids who weight a lot less than adults? A 10 kg kid would only need to ingest 320 mg! This is why safety factors are needed, and this is why limits had to be put boric acid use in pools. Again, read the TRED. This is a work in progress for me and I should hopefully have more documentation to put soon. For example, it seems that rats are particularly resistant to boric acid poisoning, and that other mammalian species are much more sensitive to it. I'm not going to put this on the main page for now as I don't have the documentation, but again, hopefully I will be able to back this up soon. Observer31 (talk) 03:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christopher H. Linden a; Alan H. Hall b; Kenneth W. Kulig b; Barry H. Rumack b (1986). "Acute ingestions of boric acid". Clinical Toxicology. 24 (4): 269–279. doi:10.3109/15563658608992592.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) states that serveral incidents with upto 297 grams per person makes it unlikely that there is acute poisoning with a single uptake is possible.--Stone (talk) 15:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Michael P. Dieter (1994). "Toxicity and Carcinogenicity Studies of Boric Acid in Male and Female ${\rm B}6{\rm C}3{\rm F}_{1}$ Mice". Environmental Health Perspectives. 102 (7 Supplement 7: Health Effects of Boron): 93–97. doi:10.2307/3431970. states that upto 1000 mg/kg per day lead to effects, but no significant death.--Stone (talk) 15:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)--Stone (talk) 19:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Silly Putty - "elemental silicon"

"Now name-brand Silly Putty also contains significant amounts of elemental silicon (silicon binds to the silicone and allows the material to bounce 20% higher)."

Does anyone have a source for this? Presumably a gray, metallic powder would be visible in the Silly Putty if silicon was present. Also, elemental silicon is protected by a surface oxide layer, and would probably not bind to the silicone. Even if it did, it seems unlikely that it would result in a higher bounce.

The same statement is repeated on the Silly Putty page, however, the formula listed there gives no mention of elemental silicon. Unless someone can back up this statement, I will remove it from both articles shortly. --Pyrochem 19:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fire Spinning reference

Boric acid is popularly used among fire jugglers and fire spinners dissolved in methanol to give a deep green flame.

I've added in a reference for this, from a Home of Poi article; Home of Poi is linked from the Poi (juggling) page, as "one of the largest and most influential poi communities in the world". Nacbrie 19:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Availability

So where can you purchase small quantities? (Grocery stores? drugstores? hardware stores? chemical supply stores?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vasa2 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pharmacies usually have small amounts of medical grade boric acid powder or diluted liquid eyewash (usually 1%-2% boric acid), garden centers in warm climates where cockroaches and ants are a common problem will usually have pest control grade boric acid powder (70%-90%) diluted with anticaking agents. Chemical supply stores will have 100% USP boric acid crystals. Bugguyak 14:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've just come back from trying to purchase boric acid at 3 large pharmacies; They do not carry it, nor could anyone remember the last time they stocked it. Another proven, cheap compound thats falling into the realm of ancient lore. Can't be much profit in a compound that sells for a dollar or 2 a lb, can be used as an antiseptic, kill insects and control nuclear fission. The search continues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.144.43 (talk) 22:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

copyvio from beyondpesticides.org

I removed a paragraph which appeared to be lifted verbatim from beyondpesticides.org and seems to be a copyvio. Re-instate if there is some evidence to the contrary.

The page at beyondpesticides.org cites its sources (and we do not, in this case), and is also referenced by another site. Both of these I take to be evidence (not proof) that the beyondpesticides.org version of that paragraph came first (the addition on wikipedia was from September).

The original page: http://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/leasttoxic/boricacid_borates_borax.htm
The reference to the original page: http://www.expertvillage.com/article/1769_boric-acid-cockroaches.htm

The paragraph in question started with: "Boric acid may be used either in an insect bait formulation containing a feed attractant..." Jun-Dai (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does Goodman and Gilman say about this?

71.114.163.227 suggested we look this up in a textbook such as Goodman and Gilman's Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics; although I see that the concerns about toxicity have already been addressed, I think that it would be nice if somebody would please consult that source and see what it says about the content of this article. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 12:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The US NIOSH have kidly published the RTECS record for boric acid here. Physchim62 (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The textbook would be a useful secondary source, if somebody were to consult it and update the article based on its content. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 20:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I looked it up on Amazon "search inside". It reads: "Boric acid, a common household chemical, forms a complex with riboflavin and promotes its urinary excretion. Boric acid poisoning, therefore, may induce riboflavin deficiency." Is that it? If so, I propose to remove the title from "Further reading", and the tag calling for the material to be included. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP article: Goodman & Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy surrounding 11-M Madrid bombings

I think a new section, or maybe a new page should be written about this. An amount of boric acid found in the house of one of the terrorists involved in the bombings suppossedly linked him to ETA. That wasn't considered important during the trial, and some think this information has been dismissed on purpose to hide connections between Al-Qaeda, ETA and even the current goverment. (This is thought by die-hard rightists who support Aznar's goverment and consider that 11-M was some sort of coup)

There's already a page about it in Spanish, but not in English, as far as I know.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_del_informe_sobre_el_%C3%A1cido_b%C3%B3rico —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.38.245.104 (talk) 19:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eti Mine Works Borate Mine or Bank/Insurance?

The article says Eti Mine Works is a large mine - it hot links to an article that says that Eti Mine Works is a bank and insurance company...? Paulburnett (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Boric acid, at the same ld50 as pyrethroid, is much less toxic to marine animals. What is worse is the surfactant (dtergent) that is used to emulsify the pyrethroid, and to distribute it. The surfactant is often more toxic than the pyrethroid. In Friday Harbor, WA, we are seeing major damage to nearshore animals from pyrethroids and surfactants in stormwater, which is not treated. Mikie

Extraction of boron

I know that boron is extracted from this mineral. Can a chemist please write something about boron's extraction from this? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suryamp (talk • contribs) 17:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Acidiy

pKa1 is 5.2 or 9.24 Ka2 & Ka3 is respectively 4*10^-13 & 4*10^-14. 113.22.176.107 (talk) 10:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]

ECHA Classification

The wikipedia article states that the ECHA changed their classification Boric Acid to highly toxic and gives a reference to a document published by ECHA. However, upon examination the document actually states May damage fertility. May damage the unborn child. I'm going to change the text in the article to accurately reflect the situation. --Popoi (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Decomposes below the boiling pint??

Here we can read, that it decomposes above 170 deg C to B2O3 and H2O. In the table there is not only the melting point given, but also a boiling point which is with 300 deg C well above the decomposition temperature. How is this possible? Are these extrapolated values from low pressure conditions? Are there any references for these values? (I found the 170 deg decomp as well, in the Hollemann/Wiberg 101. ed). --188.23.115.23 (talk) 15:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]