Talk:Vaquero

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De-disambig?

The original vaquero was actually the first cowboy and I am about to sandbox an article to that effect. (I am also a major contributor to cowboy, if it matters). However, am trying to figure out how to title it and would actually like to invoke WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and use this title, moving this to a disambig page. Does anyone out there care or have an issue with this? Montanabw^(talk) 22:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, went ahead and did it without reading this. Well, they've had 11 months to object... So, do you still have your article? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a mess that's been languishing in my sandbox for months, but I'll pour it in and it can be worked on from there. Montanabw^(talk) 22:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tribal

Where would tribal fashion/era fit in? It seems that they are redefining what vaquero means. If you have no idea what I am talking about please look up the Guarachero fashion, and Mexican long pointy (and flamboyant) boots? thanks

76.172.76.170 (talk) 07:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic

I'm OK with the horse handler words derived from Arabic words related to cattle, but we may need more sources. However, I think Wehr is wrong that šakīma, means "bit" or "bridle", as the derivation goes from Persian "hakma" to Arabic šakīma to Spanish "jacquima," which became English "hackamore." I'll admit "bridle" is used (somewhat inaccurately) to mean "headstall" because even in English people call hackamores a "bridle" even though the OED is pretty clear that a true "bridle" has a bit. If you blow this image up large enough to read the lettering File:Hackamore to bit.jpg you will note that the Spanish freno is translated as "bit." (says this right above the sketch of the bit shank, toward the bottom). I realize a poster isn't necessarily a verifiable source, but in this context, the rest of the poster is correct on terminology as it is used in the Americas, so I'm pretty confident that they aren't that far off -- Google tells me modern translations of "freno" include brake, curb or bridle [1]. I won't go to the mat for Google, but their modern use translates "bridle" as brida or freno [2], not jaquima, Google is no help for "bit" or "mouthpiece" from English into Spanish as regards horses, it appears. Montanabw^(talk) 17:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well of course I don't know how fluent your Arabic is; mine is a little rusty. Wehr's dictionary is a very sound one; if you have access to a better one, please let me know what it gives under headword شكيمة or indeed for the triliteral root شكم . I also happen to have ألفرائد , which in general I find less reliable than Wehr, but useful for Egyptian dialect and usage. It gives "to bridle (a horse)" or "to bribe (a judge)" for the verb شكم , and "bit" for شكيمة . It also gives "cowherd or neat-herd" for بقار . Please note that these are reliable, scholarly sources. Google may be OK to translate an ad for pizza, but has no hope of adequacy in this kind of specialist field. I am surprised that you even mention it in this context. There are many Spanish words for bit; hierro is in common use in Andalusia. That and some others are given in this article. The transliterations bakara and bakhara for the word meaning cow are both conventionally incorrect, as k is used to transliterate letter ك kaf, and kh for خ kha' , while the second letter of this root is ق qaf. Neither bakara nor bakhara means cow or anything to do with cattle. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sarcasm doesn't solve the problem, so please stop. As for sourcing, this would not be the first time that horsemanship works have misstatements of history or language while at the same time historians and linguists are clueless about horses and say ridiculously wrong things. Unless Wehr is a horseman, he wouldn't be the first to not use precise translations of equipment that he doesn't understand. Bennett is quite clear that Persian "Hakma" eventually got to "jaquima" and "hackamore", so it defies logic that bits would sneak in there in between--but it certainly is well within the realm of logic that Wehr doesn't understand that all bridles have a headstall but not all headstalls are bridles, at least, not in English. As for the other, you will note that the "bakara" term is qualified by the "some linguists" and one way to solve the problem is to use the more correct spelling with a second source to back up a consolidated sentence. As for the other, "Cowherd" would work better than "cowboy" if you want to make that change and cite to the relevant work; the "cowboy" came after the vaquero, after all. Montanabw^(talk) 00:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

بقار is the guy looking after the cows, بقره is the cow, الفرائد is the plural of فريدة and means unique or solitaire.--Andreas Hausberger 05:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)

Thanks, and now how does that get written in the Roman alphabet? (i.e. the "k" versus "kh" thing, and, like Chinese and other languages, isn't there more than one way to do so anyway??)

Look here for more info about that subject.--Andreas Hausberger 04:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversano Isabella (talk • contribs)

Or read what I wrote earlier, if you prefer. You cast doubts on the accuracy of Wehr, though I'm not clear on exactly what grounds. Anyway, I am pleased to discover that Lane is available online, here among many other places, so why not just check the meanings for yourself instead of relying on what others say? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not questioning the sources, I'm questioning your interpretation of them. Given your other edits, JLAN, sometimes you are correct, but other times you are just biased and opinionated, then you viciously attack anyone who disagrees with you. The source from JSTOR is reliable and the source says what the source says. All I know is that we have more than one way to Romanize Arabic -- take, for example, Khadaffi, Ghadaffi, Khadafy, etc. for Our Good Libyan Friend Moammar (also Mommar, Muhammar, etc...) or, for that matter, Mohammad/Muhammad/Mehemet, etc. My concern is sticking to the form used by the source in question given that I am not an Arabic scholar and you indicate that you are not either. I asked another horse article editor whom I trust and know has some Arabic language ability to add input. My dog in this hunt is showing the known historical progression from Ancient Persia through the Islamic world to Spain and then the Americas. Montanabw^(talk) 18:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not a scholar in any real sense of the word. I studied at SOAS in the 70s, then lived six years in an Arabic-speaking country, in a context that required me to speak Urban Hijazi dialect for many hours each day. I was reasonably fluent at the end of that time, but have spoken and read little Arabic since, though I occasionally listen to the radio - hence "rusty". But if you want to know what a dictionary says, be assured that I have the necessary skills to find out. All that Andreas says is correct, though I believe the meaning of الفرائد in the context I used it (the name of a dictionary) is better translated "the pearls". Lane is quite specific that شكيمة shakīma means bit and not hackamore: "the transverse piece of iron in the mouth of the horse, in which is the فأس " (which is "the tongue of iron which stands up towards the palate", "that which is in the middle of the شكيمة "). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Well, that is interesting. Given that I do not read Arabic at all, (I should, but I don't) I will have to take your word for it, but I appreciate that you are providing a gracious and cogent explanation. My question would next be if you have a word in Arabic for a hackamore that is distinct from that of a halter (headcollar) as headgear intended to control a horse when riding. The Spanish jaquima-->English hackamore is very well documented, and the tracing of "equipment with a heavy noseband you can ride in" to the "hakma" of Ancient Persia is also pretty clear. So if Arabic takes a left turn and uses a similar-sounding word to refer to bits, that's just weird. (Of course, I've seen plenty of modern English dictionaries that get horse equipment wrong, mine insists that hackamores derive from halters, which isn't so) By the way, though, the "the tongue of iron which stands up towards the palate" may be the spoon of a spade bit (horse) as opposed to a bit in general. The Moorish connection in bits to the Spanish tradition is yet another area of research and study that is probably sitting out there for someone to do. Interested? Montanabw^(talk) 20:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up -- looks like you are right on "sakima" -- found a different source from one of my old edits (includes a ref to the 2008 OED) that backs up the bit and bridle thing. See hackamore. Still weird to have the equipment in question move around. But I'll publicly mea culpa on this one that you are accurate here. Montanabw^(talk) 21:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]