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Gaining popularity in Europe

"Tango soon became the first of many Latin dance crazes to gain popularity in Europe"

I change that for simply "it began to gain popularity in Europe, beginig in France"

Because the "latin" term is problematic, France is latin in the first place.


And I changed the part where it said that it was a mix of European, african and native american rithms because there is not native american influence in tango, besides there was no important native american population at that time in Buenos AIres and Montevideo. All the styles that influenced it were either African (from the slaves, mostly in Uruguay, since there were not many blacks left in BA) or European (from the immigrants of that time, mostly from Polish, French and Spanish dances).

I can see why you would have trouble with the native american influence, since from a US perspective it refers to native before the Spanish conquest. But tango has an important element besides african (actually african-american, since there is no direct african influence), and european: the gaucho. While a descendant of the Spanish colonization (ie, not really "native"), by the time tango was born, the gaucho had been around for 200 years, and this culture had an enormous influence on tango.--BlopaGotan (talk) 03:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Differences between orchestras

Does anyone have any links that would help show differences in style/orchestra? I am thinking about the same song - different artists; something like "el choclo" or "la cumparsita" comes up. We would only need short sequences to highlight the differences...?! dekay 14:22, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Que vergoña dedicarle mucho mas lugar al gotan project que a todos los grandes del tango... en fin, uno se pone viejo. pero igual: oh my gosh.

Removed pop culture

I removed the paragraph below because it isn't relevant. Tango has been featured in lots of movies, TV shows and other parts of pop culture -- as a matter of fact, tango has long constituted a major part of pop culture. Tuf-Kat

Shakira released a song — "Te Aviso, Te Anuncio (Tango)" — which starts with a tango-like part (and also features some seconds of tango dancing in its video). The musical Chicago by John Kander and Fred Ebb was recently made into a film and also features a tango, the "Cell Block Tango", where murderers or, at least, accused murderers from a women's prison in Chicago greet newcomer to the jail (Roxie Hart) in their own way. The soundtrack of Waking Life features tango music prominently; the feature track is called "The Twenty-First Century Tango". Another movie featuring a good tango scene is Moulin Rouge, to a fusion of the Police song "Roxanne" with Mariano Mores's "Tanguera" — creating "El tango de Roxanne".
Ahh but don't forget to mention that the tango is also featured in recent popular culture movies. "Guess Who" with Ashton Kutcher and Bernie Mac and also the most recent "Rent!"


Center only in Argentina?

Most of the people think that Tango was born in Montevideo (Uruguay), place also were the most famous Tango (La Cumparsita) was composed. Though, I don't see any good mention to Uruguay.

I disagree strongly with that. Who is most of the people? Is there really any evidence? I have been looking through different web pages and encyclopediae, and found nothing relating the origin of Tango with Montevideo.


I was listening to a talk by performers with Tango Tinto who also stated that it started in Uruguay. Part of the confusion may stem from the fact that under Spanish rule, what is now Uruguay was the 'Banda Orientale' of the Province of the Rio Plate. The Rio Plate province is often identified with modern Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.229.6 (talk) 12:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction

The page contains a contradiction: that the Golden Age ended after Gardel's death (1935) and that it ran from 1935-1952 (i.e. it started after his death). Well which is it? [adonovan] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.119.128.203 (talk • contribs)

You'r right. The Golden Age was from 1930 to 1950 (aprox). I fixed the text. Mariano(t/c) 08:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tango-related article deletion

Please vote Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tango.info (2nd nomination). `'mikka (t) 18:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On electronic tango

The part about gotan project is very old dated (2004) I haven't changed anything because I'm not very skilled and the only thing new I know about it is that they have a new album called Lunatico (like Gardel's horse).

I updated this section a bit, and I'm removing this line, since it is not relevant to tango music as a whole: "Out-takes from the recording of Lunático were aired on Gilles Peterson's show "Worldwide" aired on BBC one in May 2004."--kidbritish 00:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about a mention of Otros Aires. They are a good example of neo-tango using very old samples to blend new with old. DSC 22:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Artists / Bands

I created a new wiki-page for Florindo Sassone.

Information on the net is really sparse. If anyone would like to fill in the missing information, feel free to do it.

On a more general scale, there are many Tango-bands/artists that do not show up on wikipedia, so it might be useful to improve this.

-- Discoleo (talk) 18:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin Johansen

I am putting Kevin Johansen in at the milonga page. It seems more appropriate since some of his songs have a milonga rhythm, not a tango rhythm. Binksternet (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macho lyrics

This sentence seems unnecessary, and does not seem to fit with general opinion, "Lyrics were still typically macho, blaming women for countless heartaches, and the dance moves were still sexual and aggressive."

If no one has any resonable objections I will delete it.

Classical crossover

Also in the section about crossover with classical music, I think Le Grand Tango written by Piazzolla to be performed by Rostropovitch, should be mentioned

Find a reference about Rostropovitch playing Le Grand Tango and bring the info into this article. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Is Tango?

Is it just me, or does this article have nothing to say about what makes a tango a tango? I mean, I know it's easier to separate a waltz from other music (3/4 time), but isn't there some distinctive beat or rhythm in tango that makes it a tango? That's the info I came here looking for, and a quick skim doesn't seem to indicate that it's present.

The rock article I read a few weeks back pointed out that rock used a bass-snare-bass-snare beat, and a country article (maybe not on Wikipedia, I forget) said that country used (IIRC) a snare-bass-snare-bass beat, which at least helped me differentiate them a bit in my mind. I was hoping for something like that here. I can basically recognize a tango [when I hear one], but since I'm moving into actually making music, I need a little more concrete info than that. About all I know at this point is that there's a decided pause after a strong beat, so "somehow or other" the music gets broken into pieces using "something - STRONG - pause" but I don't know more than that. Can someone put up the information or at least point out more obviously where the information is to be found (on Wikipedia or elsewhere)? Thanks. Kilyle (talk) 12:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rhythm

The example of a tango rhythm is good enough, but it is not THE tango rhythm. Although there really may not be any such thing, the common mythological creature is said by old tango musicians to be in 4/4 time, dotted quarter followed by an eighth and then two quarters with a slight accent on the last beat. Of course, there are innumerous tangos that have no such rhythm! At any rate, the part of the article about rhythm should mention some typical tango (plural) rhythms. Gingermint (talk) 02:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. Also, I just looked up the reference this example had pointing to Revisiting Music Theory: A Guide to the Practice, and it showed a completely different rhythm than shown here! I think we should instead go with 1 - - & 3 - 4 - like as described in The Piano Handbook by Carl Humphries. --Kaleb.G (talk) 01:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Influences on the Tango, where he was born and developed this rhythm

I have added new paragraph in this - good - Wikipedia article. It goes with reliable references and it is written from a factual point of view based on references, as I said, reliable.

Please I only wait objectivity and tolerance, with the sole aim of improving Wikipedia (contributing their two cents).

GREETINGS! --Edipo yocasta (talk) 15:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You removed Uruguay as co-originator, per UNESCO. The UNESCO reference is at the highest level of scholarship, and cannot be changed. You can add to it, but not change its meaning. In other words, Uruguay must be acknowledged as the same as Argentina with regard to level of importance in tango origins. Binksternet (talk) 15:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK! I agree with you in it. I won't change the "UNESCO TITLE"...but if you read that I wrote, you own will see where the Tnago borned. I don't want to discuss. If you read the references given by me, you'll see... --Edipo yocasta (talk) 15:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OH! and if you show me, only ONE realiable references of Tango in uruguay at the late 19th century, I will accept the co-originator Uruguay. But till this moment, please don't forbid my contributions in Wikipedia. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 16:00, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your references are not that good:
So, the sources listed above which are useful are trimmed down to two: Frigerio and Binda. Whatever is written in this article about tango music must acknowledge UNESCO as mainstream, and Binda as a significant minority opinion. Binksternet (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I support Binksternet here. I am interested in the references quoted in Edipo yocasta's contribution, but their conclusions are quite biassed. I do not think they provide enough evidence to overrun the UNESCO literature. And by adding a last paragraph mentioning Uruguay as an afterthought they are not really being constructive. On the other hand, they do not seem to be reading other people's contributions, as they make claims regarding the first time the word tango appears in writing, or the first time a tango piece was recorded, etc, disregarding the fact that other people are quoting earlier references. --Megustalastrufas (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Who can beleive that Uruguay was more important than Argentina in te beginnings of Tango???? It's a big silly thing. And why did you delete my last paragraph?? I wrote any bad thing??? NO!, I only write what was written by other people time ago. Moreover, why did you delete the first mention on the word Tango (to describe the Argentine tango borned in Gran Buenos Aires)...

Mmm... I have added new references and new information, I hope you can read it with objectivity. And if you do that and you think that I wrote is good information, please don't remove my paragraphs and "my" external link or references. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 12:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at what you wrote, but I cannot understand the English enough to understand what you wanted to say. I reverted your changes.
Certainly, one thing you did was remove Uruguay from the infobox list of cultural origins. The UNESCO cite specifically puts Uruguay on the same level as Argentina in terms of cultural origins. Don't remove Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 16:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your new sources:
  • http://www.easybuenosairescity.com/tango.htm
    • This essay is not signed; it has no author. That means it is not verifiable, failing WP:V. It says tango was likely first danced in Cuba, not Argentina or Uruguay. However, you used this essay to say that Buenos Aires was "likely, and almost certainly" the birthplace of tango. The essay says the "starting point" of tango music and dance was in BsAs brothels, but right before this it said Cuba was first. The essay has internal problems of contradiction. No good as a source.
  • http://www.history-of-tango.com/tango-origins.html
    • In this essay, Christine Denniston does not discuss Uruguay, but you used the essay to say that Buenos Aires was "likely, and almost certainly" the birthplace of tango. Denniston is only discussing the cliché about tango originating in whorehouses. She says it was more likely the tenement houses than the brothels, which goes against the previous reference. She does not say Buenos Aires was before or after tango in Uruguay.
  • http://www.history-of-tango.com/couple-dancing.html
    • Denniston does not discuss Uruguay vs Argentina in this essay. She says tango began with poor immigrants who left very little trace, making it impossible to determine exactly the origin of tango.
  • http://www.history-of-tango.com/index.html

Are you kidding me???? The UNESCO only says that "Tango" is folkloric in Argentina and Uruguay, that is very typical of those countries, but never It denie that the eginning of Tango was in Argentina. Man, por casualidad no hablarás español??? If you don-t understand in a good way the English, why are you deleting and removing thing that you dont understand??? I will put again my paragraphs.

You are always mentioning UNESCO UNESCO........ UnESCO only aprove the Tango like "World heritage", an that-s all. I am writting about the beginnings of Tango. If you remove again without understand everything I wrote, I will denounce you to the good Wikipedians.

AND? Why did you wrote: Uruguayan coast was most important...??? Are an unobjective uruguayan??? Porque si es así, sabé que hablo perfectamente el español, ign.

Dont- remove my changes without any explanation and moreover saying "i don-t understand in a good way the English!!!. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read what I wrote??? Or you just truts in UNESCO... and you DO NOT READ what I wrote??? And I wrote the text in an objective way. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you edipo_yocasta, it seems that Binksternet is playing with you. Binksternet: don't remove he changes only cause you don't understand. I won't take placement in this "fight" but, I thin Edipo_yocasta has got the reason; and that you are removing because..... I don't know, you only know, it seems you are uruguayan. --El rrienseolava (talk) 17:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not agree with Edipo yocasta, I am a native English speaker, educated in London as a linguist, and I don't understand YOUR English either. In fact, one of the reasons why I changed the title of this section into Argentinian roots of Tango is the fact that what you originally wrote Influences on the Tango, where he was born and developed this rhythm is just NOT acceptable English. For a start, if you say "the Tango" you are referring to a specific song, or referring by ellipsis to the tango Dance, not to Tango in general, which was not your intention. then I don't know who is that he nor why developed is joining born in the passive, etc.

Then, I agree with Binksternet when he/she says that the paragraph he erased is not written in good, comprehensible English. Please note that he says "I cannot understand the English" he does not say "I don't understand English" (see above your issues with articles in the Tango)--Megustalastrufas (talk) 11:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As a native Californian educated in the public school system before it was eviscerated by Prop 13, I have a fine appreciation of English. This is the English-language version of Wikipedia, and as an encyclopedia it demands a high proficiency in English.
Any attempt to take Uruguay out of the infobox or out of the lead section will be opposed by me, quoting the UNESCO decision which determines both Uruguay and Argentina to be originators of the tango. Other explanations of the tango that are supported by good sources are ones we can discuss. Good references include Frigerio, Denniston, Binda, museum curators, and any author of a book. The more scholarly sources should prevail over references that not peer reviewed or are unsigned. Binksternet (talk) 16:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK! men. but I'm going to do the next question: Who wrote that the Uruguayan coast was most important??? and, Where did you read it??? and Why did you remove my the last paragraphs I wrote??? I think you remove it because almost all ther eferences re in spanish and you don't understand not even a single word.

Moreover, if I write a phrase with more thhan 12 word, it's enough as you don't understand... is not like in Spanish, I'm sorry. I only think, you DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TANGO, DO YOU??? --Edipo yocasta (talk) 21:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down, keep track of WP:NPA (no personal attacks allowed). Where are you getting the word coast from? The word does not appear in the article, so I cannot make sense of your complaint about "the Uruguayan coast was most important".
I know plenty about tango, and about dancing, and about music in general. My university studies and 30-year career have revolved around music. My Spanish is only halfway decent, but I make good use of online translation tools, mentally fixing the automated mistakes. Binksternet (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK! master, then... can you show me any reference of "uruguayan tango" before 1905??? If you do that, I will believe the "shared" origin, but till you show me something, I won't believe this big lie. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Edipo_yocasta, Enrique Binda in his article River Plate tango or Argentine tango?, which you quote, makes an enormous effort to try and distinguish the developments of tango either side of river plate, trying to prove that Buenos Aires came first. Even if it were true that BBAA is the fulcrum, the starting point, the epicentre, the cradle of tango, Binda's article also proves that it is very difficult to discern which side did what towards its development. There is a lot of arguing, studying specific songs and their influences, dissecting the pieces down to the single note. We see this kind of arguing also in other references: Is La Cumparsita really Uruguayan? Was Carlos Gardel really Uruguayan? Did Candombe only survive in Uruguay after the fevers? etc. To a foreigner, this reads like brothers quarrelling over the love of their mother, which makes me think that your nick is quite to the point. The facts say that over the last hundred years at least, tango has developed as a rioplatense phenomenon, encompassing both sides. This is recognised by Unesco, and this is what Wikipedia should state.--Megustalastrufas (talk) 09:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK! and I can't dicuss it. Tango was developed since 1916 in Uruguay. But till Julio Sosa, Uruguayan tango was formed only by few orchestras. Beyond that, I wish you understand that I know that Tango is folk as in Argentina as in Uruguay (since 1935, more or less), I only want that World know that first Tangos songs, Tango singers and composers, Tango scores, the word "tango" (referring to the Argentine Tango), first payadores who sing tango, first orchestras which recorded tango, first musician of Tango; were argentinian. Mm...or as much uruguayans who have lived in Buenos Aires City since they were childrens or young teenagers (for example: Canaro and Gobbi). Therefore, their musical and cultural education were from Buenos Aires City (Argentina).

To sum up, the begginings of Tango developed in Argentina (the Tango "born" in Argentina), and years later (from "La Cumparsita", more or less), uruguay developed a little of Tango. Later, when Sosa "arrived" at the Tango World, the uruguayan tango began to be known. This is demonstrated by the texts I cited.

I'm sure you know the difference between "folk" (typical from ... some region or country), and "place where a genre began to be played and developed", don't you? regards! --Edipo yocasta (talk) 11:48, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stop removing Uruguay from the infobox parameter which lists "cultural origins". This is precisely the point of the UNESCO cite. I have restored Uruguay, and this time I have placed the UNESCO cite there to nail it down. Binksternet (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Edipo_yocasta, stop your personal editing war, notice that ref no. 1 Argentina, Uruguay bury hatchet to snatch tango honor implies a collective decision NOT to do precisely what you are doing.--Megustalastrufas (talk) 08:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

¿Que me van a hablar a mi de Tango?? mejor hablen de la jota española y del jazz. You are 2 "half-truth". You and me know the truth, but OK... UNESCO "win"... hahaha. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 16:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The presence of the UNESCO cite complicates this article. We cannot simply take non-neutral Argentine or Uruguayan sources asserting their primacy. We need more global sources, ones which do not start with the conclusion and present only the data which confirms the conclusion. Binksternet (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I won't remove Uruguay from "cultural origins"... besides you and me know........ But you don't remove the paragraphs in Argentinians roots of tango, because there isn't any bad thing to Uruguay... those argentine tangos existed. Is it enough with "my" last reference?. --Edipo yocasta (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edipo yocasta is right about everything... Nobody can deny that tango is part of the culture of both countries (in fact it's what UNESCO said), but its origins are in Argentina... please remove Uruguay from cultural origins Sergio Farfán (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 09:05, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tango music → Tango – The Tango music is the primary topic for the word "Tango". The varieties of tango, or the dance associated to this music, are merely subtopics of it. None of the other uses listed at the Tango disambiguation page (which should be moved to Tango (disambiguation), currently a redirect to "Tango") are anywhere near the music as primary topics. Cambalachero (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose; if anything, Tango (dance) is the primary topic. Powers T 13:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As said, the associated dance is a subtopic. Cambalachero (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that's true, it's not really relevant. "Tango", to the average English speaker, means the dance -- thus, the phrase "it takes two to tango". Powers T 20:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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