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More subsections, please

More of these sections are looking awfully cluttered. For instance, "Media" could stand to have "TV episodes" and "Films" subsections and "Music" would benefit from "Songs" and "Albums" subsections. And on a unrelated note, the "Media" section is vague and confusing as it exists now, considering that music, video games, and literature all fall under the umbrella term of "media".--Remurmur (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree fully, though I vote for a simpler alphabetical listing which would eliminate subsections altogether (except the letters themselves. Inter change able|talk to me 01:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New biology subsections

Biology articles currently have a subsection 'Animals', but other organisms (plants, fungi, prokaryotes) are listed in the general biology section along with more general topic articles like Evolution. I propose we lump all articles about specific species into one subsection 'Organisms.' Alternately, if anyone thinks it important to keep a separate 'Animals' subsection, we could just add a 'Other organisms' section after 'Animals.' Spencer Bliven (talk) 17:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

please read the talk page and Wikipedia talk:Featured articles/Archive 13-- I don't really want to type it all again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link, SandyGeorgia. I see your point about not wanting a lot of subsections. However, as a biologist it is frustrating to continually see the general public treat animals as a special class, while they represent only a tiny fraction of the diversity of life.

This isn't the place for a discussion of biological philosophy, so I'll make a more pragmatic argument. There are now 68 non-animal FAs, which obscure the mere 22 FAs which highlight general biology concepts (See my mockup User:Quantum7/Wikipedia:Featured articles). This is considerably more FAs than in the biography subsection, and splitting them into a 'Other Organisms' subsection would be more consistent with the existence of an 'animals' subcategory. Spencer Bliven (talk) 18:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason animals were separated wasn't that we considered animals special, but rather that there's a lot more FAs on them than on other organisms. I agree that we don't want to create the impression that we are treating animals as special when they are not, but if we have a section "other organisms" that will also give the impression that animals are a class of their own. Ucucha (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going merely for a 50/50 split of the biology pages, we should just split them alphabetically. Instead, we should recognize that the subsections provide a meaningful classification. I consider the 'Organism/General' classification to be much more meaningful than the 'Animal/Everything else' split. The 'Animal/Other organism/General' seems like a good compromise between balancing the number of pages in subsections with providing a meaningful organization. Note that I am not advocating a deep heirarchy of FAs, but I also think that in this particular case, adding another category would be helpful. Spencer Bliven (talk) 21:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

French interwiki link

Currently, clicking the French interwiki link takes you fr:Wikipédia:Articles de qualité, which appears to be their equivalent of WP:FAC. It should link to fr:Wikipédia:Contenus de qualité, which like this page is a list of featured articles. I would fix it myself but couldn't find the interwiki links in the edit view- are they on a subpage or something? Thanks, Lithoderm 04:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List markup

I've just been reverted, in the middle of implementing {{Flatlist}} on this page, per WP:HLIST. This uses proper, semantically-correct, standards-compliant and accessible list markup, instead of bullet characters which are none of those things. My next step was going to be to point out here that, with over 3,400 links the page is far too large and should be split into sub-pages, by section. I suggest that the latter would remedy any issues of slow rendering. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Using the flatlist template created a few problems, which I'd like to understand or see discussed before implementation. The page for me was extremely slow loading, and considering the way this page is used, the extra markup would make checking and other maintenance chores more difficult. Subpages would also not be optimal, in terms of checking, reorging when needed, and routine page maintenance. The page works fine as it-- I'm unsure what advantage is gained by the flatlist, but others may explain and convince me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The flatlist makes for more semantically meaningful markup—Andy probably knows more about the precise benefits, but I think it makes it easier for screen readers and text browsers to process the page, and in general for computer programs to process the rendered page. All else being equal, I'd prefer for the flatlist to be introduced, but Andy's version does seem to be somewhat slow-loading. For what it's worth, I believe my bot wouldn't have trouble processing Andy's version of the page; whether that also goes for Gimmebot I'm not sure. Ucucha (talk) 15:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[ec] The extra markup, which is minimal, should cause no difficulty for editors; nor has any such difficulty been reported in thousands of other instances of {{Flatlist}}. Splitting such a large page is needed, regardless of whether or not {{Flatlist}} is used. I have explained the advantages of {{Flatlist}}, above, and inked to page with further info. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know why it's so slow loading or if anything can be done about that? I can't work with that. I'd like to hear from Gimme on Gimmebot, since his checking and updating is key. At any rate, please don't make major changes to this page without first making sure all the bot operators are on board. I do not want the page split-- it loads fine now, and splitting it will result in maintenance issues and won't serve our readers well, where all FAs are listed in one place. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting this page would require recoding the script. I don't think the flatlist thing would affect the script code, but I'm not sure. If people really want flatlist, I would suggest putting it in one section only for a while - at least a week - to see if there are any issues. I don't have an opinion on flatlist itself, yet. Gimmetoo (talk) 16:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am failing to see what we are gaining from this, and why we need to make so many editors and bot operators jump through hoops and spend time on something that is currently working fine. I was hoping to work on an article today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is no; I can't even load the diff or the page, Wiki hangs, and I have to exit Wikipedia and re-enter to access the talk page here. Pls revert for now, until we can sort this out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-implemented the flatlist as {{flatlist}}blahblahblah{{endflatlist}} on this page rather than {{flatlist|blahblahblah}}. If it's still slow then revert again. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already said, it is too slow to load, in fact excruciatingly so, such that I have to exit Wikipedia and re-enter to access this talk page. Again, please revert until this can be sorted out. I've pinged everyone who has to use the page-- someone may know what the problem is, but I can't use a page I can't load. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, reverted. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I use Internet Explorer, but I just tried to load the last diff from Firefox, and the computer hung, had to restart. Perhaps its the interface between flatlist and the code I have installed that highlights which pages have been TFA? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I was about to use {{endflatlist}} as it is lighter weight due to the whole page not being a template parameter. The page loads ok for me. As above, this is all about proper structure and accessibility. I too would suggest that this page be split up as it is unwieldy and will only get more so as thousands of more articles are 'featured'. This will make any residual page-load issues moot. Alarbus (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We add about one article per day-- no need for alarm, the page works fine and will for a very long time. Is anyone able to determine if my problem is the interaction between the code that bolds TFAs and flatlist? If anyone wants to test this business, please do so in sandbox and not on this page, as this is taking time unnecessarily. In fact, it would be optimal if the whole business were moved to a sandbox, including the TFA bolding code by those testing it, and working with the bot operators to make sure everything is correct before changing this page. This page is a definitive list of FAs, we work hard to make sure it's correct, and I will not support splitting the page at its current size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The page already does not "work fine" for all our readers; for example people using screen readers will hear "cat dot dog dot horse dot…" not "cat dog horse…" (with brief pauses between links), as they will once Flatlist (or class=hlist") is deployed; and its already hard to edit and preview such a large page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Curious that Graham87 has never complained-- I'll ping him in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not alarmed. Picking up the pace would be goodness, though. I've no idea what code highlights TFA or how it might interact. I need to look at this page, more... Alarbus (talk) 16:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's User:SandyGeorgia/monobook.css (Raul also uses it). Picking up the pace would be lovely, but with all of Wikipedia in decline, and FAs under fire from the underinformed, I see zero chance of that happening, hence no reason for concern. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The monobook.css doesn't seem to me to be related. I didn't notice it taking longer than without, or rendering oddly, but I haven't checked IE. Gimmetoo (talk) 16:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) It's not the script; I don't have it, and the page is still slower for me with the flatlist in. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps use class="hlist" in lieu of the template? Same thing, but different. Alarbus (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but will those wanting to implement this (which I don't find necessary, but what do I know) please sort it in sandbox first, and be sure to install the code that shows which articles have been TFA in case that's part of the load time problem. And please bring in all the bot operators, gain consensus from everyone who uses this page, and make sure everything is right before fiddling with the page. Could this whole issue please move to a sandbox? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm as well that it is slower in IE for versions < 9 due to the compatibility scripts in MediaWiki:Common.js running to make hlists look nice. Not that noticeable for a smaller hlist in a navbox at the end of a page but for a big page such as this, adds about 4 seconds for me with IE 9 in compatibility mode & I've got a fast PC. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:33, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is that with the template, or just the class, or both? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on my laptop, haven't tried faster desktop, but laptop is where I usually work, and I don't think we should add something that can only be used by those with fast processors, so we need to sort this before making a change that isn't strictly necessary for any reason I can decipher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's with the lighter flatlist/endflatlist templates. I've now put a copy in the sandbox. Have a try of loading the original page in IE<9 (or IE 9 in compatibility mode) and some other browser and then try again with the sandbox and see if you notice a difference. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was so hoping to do some article work today :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was more a reply to Andy's question, just above your reply. Just that I posted it below your reply. That's all. No need for you to test anything. I know it's slower, Just wanted to demonstrate that to Andy. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. In that case, would <div class="hlist"> help, or would the scripts till be invoked? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The script looks for the hlist class. The template itself, or Sandy's CSS, is not a factor. I also see the slowdown in IE8 (4 seconds), even worse so in compatibility mode where it has to add the bullets (40 seconds). The number of items is just too much for the helper script to swallow. I have no immediate solution. I guess Sandy is using IE in compatibility mode (which I strongly recommend to turn off). — Edokter (talk) — 17:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm ... I don't know what compatibility mode is ... so as not to sidetrack the discussion here, could someone post to my talk page telling me what it is, where to find it, and how to turn it off? As to the arguments here against dividing the page not being convincing, I haven't seen a convincing argument for why we should divide it-- right now, we have all FAs on one page, and changing that is not at all desirable, particularly since we're only growing at about one article per day, and no one yet has presented a reason why we need to alter bots, alter maintenance, alter everything (why)-- even Graham87 says the screen reader argument isn't key. In other words, please get consensus for why this page needs to change, and explain why we need to invest all this effort into fixing a not-problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:19, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The best immediate solution would be to sub-divide this ludicrously-full page. The arguments against doing so, above, are, frankly, unconvincing. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said consistently, I support the use of flatlists, but tepidly. I just get used to hearing the dots, and know to skip right past them, as other advanced screen reader users would. IMO flatlists are nice to have, but not essential, and especially not if they increase page load times unacceptably. Graham87 16:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Not replying to anyone in particular)Just saw the ping from Sandy on my talk page. The diff given above with the new styling does load more slowly for me, but not significantly. However, I have a computer with a fairly fast processor and a fast internet connection, so there's not much that loads slowly for me... I'm using Firefox, just FYI. Dana boomer (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Firefox should not load slower, as the helper script only runs in IE8 and below. Diffs from the history always load slower since they are not cached. — Edokter (talk) — 18:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Icons

The page says:

A small bronze star icon … on the top right corner of an article's page indicates that the article is featured… Additionally, if the current article is featured in another language version, a star will appear next to the language page link, in the list on the left of the page…

However, there is no such icon on the mobile version of our articles, which thus makes the above worse than meaningless. Also, the language links are not on the left of the mobile version; and, as I've blogged on my own site, spatial references to page layout are harmful.

How can we reword the above boilerplate, to avoid these problems? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that everyone who uses the mobile version knows that it stinks and most things don't work there-- why are we any different? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Headline for Apollo 8

I think that Apollo 8 belongs under Engineering and Technology rather than under Physics and Astronomy. --Ettrig (talk) 12:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly (Shuttle–Mir Program is there), but please let's wait for others to opine before doing any moving (like to keep this page as stable as possible, recognizing that categorization of topics is sometimes difficult). Also, if that is the case, aren't there other articles listed in Astronomy that might also be moved to Eng and Tech? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]