Talk:Polyvinyl chloride

Diagrams

Sorry for the bad ASCII "drawings". I'll try and improve that in a while ;)

Should mention phthalates controversy.

Lest this page be forever alternately edited by User:Daniel C. Boyer and User:Maximus Rex, adding and removing the "Pipe Dreams" link, I am (perhaps ill-advisedly) registering my opinion.

• I agree with MR that a material is not notable simply because it has been used as artistic medium; and PVC's notability is certainly not for its role as an artistic medium (unlike, say, paint or bronze). So I am disinclined towards noting PVC's use in art within the article. If we were to list all the applications in which PVC is used at least as much as it is within art, we would have a very long list.
• However, the "Pipe Dreams" link is an interesting 'squirty' link that is tangentially related to PVC. Someone looking for more information on PVC itself would not want to follow it, but someone merely browsing might very much want to follow it. It was not appropriate (as was originally the case) as the only "PVC-related" external link, but it might be appropriate asvolvement with the "Pipe Dreams" exhibition makes his repetitive restoration of the link rather akin to self-promotion, so even if the "Pipe Dreams" link belongs here, it is unclear that he should be the one to put it here.
• It may be appropriate to conduct a straw poll to gain a more broad-based sense of whether the link belongs here.

Shimmin 20:29, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I changed the atomic structure as none hydrogen ions are conventionally drawn at the bottom

Dangers

perhaps this section should be titled "Alleged Dangers" of PVC? --Discordian 00:47, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

"Health and Safety" - nice choice. --Discordian 13:10, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

1835 or 1838?

When did Henri whatsisname find white stuff floating in his flask of vinyl chloride? Anyone have references on the matter? There seems to be a disagreement between the websites I'm finding; hopefully someone will have an authoritative book on their shelf.--Joel 02:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC) help

Lead in PVC?

I've heard reports of lead leaching from PVC.

Should these be added, and does anyone else have independant verification?

User:Orange & Viridian 2/15/06 11:11 am

Aside from the word "plumbing", I've never heard of a link between PVC and lead. Dioxin, maybe, but not lead. --Joel 19:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I have seen a warning poster about lead in some vinyl lunchboxes. Also, some electrical cords (probably insulated with PVC) have a warning label about lead, but I am not sure if the lead is in the plastic or as the metal in part of the wire. Also, the cadmium page notes that some cadmium compounds are added to PVC. Anyone have more info. on this? --24.16.148.75 23:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Lead is widely used as a stabilizer for the PVC insulation around romex, extension cords, Christmas lights and other electrical conductors. It is not well bound to the polymer and hence can be released in dust over time.

Lead is also used as a stabilizer in other PVC applications - Tom Lent 17:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC) (guess i should post this, eh?

Where are the good points of PVC?

I came to this page because I wanted to find information about the ways PVC is used. Instead, I found an article almost totally devoted to the (possible) health problems of PVC. This could well be useful, but I wish someone would explain why PVC is used before explaining why it shouldn't be used. -- Eric-Albert 23:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Dangers vs. Uses

I agree with Eric-Albert. Although information about dangers is useful and necessary, I was looking for uses.

Concur. Environmentalist POV. The dangers section is longer than the uses section for the second most widely used plastic on earth. 59.94.139.28 13:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

PVC vs. UPVC & RPVC vs. FPVC

It should definantly be noted somewhere in this article that the plasticizers which may leach out of some PVC products is only used in UPVC (aka FPVC, flexible pvc, ect.) The purpose of the plasticizers is to make the PVC flexible, like polyethylene. Rigid PVC (used for cold water piping in many homes, construction etc.,) containes no plasticizers becuase it is a product that must remain rigid. With all the health concerns this article mentions it is really essential to make this designation.

I would change it myself but I am not sure where to put this information. It seems to me like it should be in the beggining of the article, but it could be placed at the start of the health concerns sub-topic. CoolMike 17:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

UPVC stands for "Unplasticized" PVC. It would help to distinguish PVC types with plasticizers and those without; I'm confused as it seems that unplasticized PVC is the type which does contain plasticizers which seems back to front. EdDavies 12:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you mentioned my earlyer error Ed. Somehow I had mixed up the two over the course of writting my comments. UPVC indeed stands for unplasticized PVC, and is the same as Rigid PVC, while FPVC stands for flexible PVC and is the type which contains the large amount of plasticizers. CoolMike 14:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I made a distinction in the article after the environmental point is mentioned.Stu42 17:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Uses of PVC

I have a classroom text used to introduce engineers to plastics engineering that lists many common products that are frequently made of PVC...Those folks who talked about uses of pvc, would you find this information usefull? Very few products are made out of only one material, so it would just be a general guide. CoolMike 17:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I came to Wikipedia for information on PVC in packaging (medical, food, household chemicals). Should I add this into the uses section? BrendanNZ 02:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Unrecyclable?

That raised an eyebrow for me. I work at a UPVC pipe fitting plant and all leftover / loose pieces are sent back to be reground and repressed, with the exception of those that have chemical defects. It seems to me that the biggest reason PVC (piping, at least) isn't recycled would be that once you install PVC plumbing, you rarely ever take it back out. At the very least, PVC can be recycled. Since the Greenpeace claim has been uncited for about a month now, i'll take it down in a few days if no one disagrees. SReynhout 20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Not so much unrecyclable as difficult to recycle I should think. Widespread infrastructure does not exist (in the US), and PVC is very much a different beast from HDPE/LDPE(, PS and PETE). Offhand I'd think PVC is closer to polycarbonate which is diffcult to recycle itself. --Belg4mit 03:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought the main problem was, that PVC was mixed up with other chemicals (plastifiers, etc.) to make it easy to handle. If yuo have one 'type' of PVC, there is no problem, but if you mix all the 'different PVC's' you get to something that is almost impossible to handle. I think that is saw in NL a scheme where they ground old PVC (all sorts of it), and made it into a solid form, and used it for things that would not need a high-quality plastic, and also would not need replacement for the next so many years. So, I do agree, it can be recycled, reword to 'difficult to recycle', and give some (preferably referenced) reasons? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed statement that Greenpeace says that PVC is unrecyclable. The statement that PVC can not be recycled is rediculous. PVC is a thermoplastic, meaning when subjected to heat it softens, and can be reformed to make usefull products. It is a common practice to compound PVC in a twin screw extruder, then pellatize the PVC and use those pellets in a secondary extrusion opperation to make finished gooods. When getting information from a special interest group such as greenpeace one must take into account their bias towards advancing their own agenda. In this case the mis-information was so far from reality that I see no option but to delete the statement. Thanks. CoolMike 15:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The PVC industry in Europe have just completed their Vinyl 2010 voluntary commitment programme which commenced in 2000 and which included a committment to increase the yearly amount of recycled PVC by 200,000 Tonnes by 2010. In fact the amount of post consumer PVC waste collected and recycled last year was reported to be over 260,000 tonnes in their audited report.Substantiated claim [1] StuPat (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

the batch

as well i want to make a trial on a pvc cast for my sculpture project. is there any simple list of media that i can use to make a media such a media for vinyl toys that increase lately...

please send me an email if theres somebody know about it

mail me at budiadinugroho@yahoo.com

thx alot

Advantages and Disadvantages

This is pretty much standard on all the other polymer pages but I must of just lucked out. Can you guys please put an advantages and disadvantages section up, lots of school kids like myself will be looking at this and I want them to not have to go searching in other places like myself. 211.31.112.16 23:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Link to lists of cancer clusters

Is there any reason that a link to lists of cancer clusters should be at the see also section of this page? I didn't see any reference to cancer clusters in the article... Will delete it after a second search through the text on the grounds that it has no real connection to the article. Feedback would be appreciated. CoolMike 01:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Statistics

I am currently doing a lot of research intp PVC, and the statistics in this properties table seem to vary significantly to other sources; I have found that the properties of PVC do vary depending upon the small amount of plasticisers added, but who knows where these stated properties are taken from?

Blue Man Group?

I can find no reason for a link to the Blue Man Group in the See Also section. I'm removing it. It can be put back if it's supose to be there. I'm putting it here: * [[Blue Man Group]] SadanYagci 02:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

References for PVC properties

Could whoever put the properties of PVC on this page give the reference for where they took that information from? At the moment it looks like those numbers were pulled out of the air, excluding the last one, and I don't believe there's any policy that says physical and chemical properties shouldn't be properly referenced like any other highly specific detail in an article. 58.168.115.92 05:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

There is some confusion regarding the heat transfer coefficient. The correct units for the heat transfer coefficient is W/m2K. The correct units for the thermal conductivity is W/mK. Johnsarelli (talk) 10:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yoga Mats

All this talk about good uses for PVC...does anyone realize that this is in the makeup of some Yoga Mats? After a period of time the mat begins to break down from the sweat and you need to throw it away. That can't be good for anything.

If someone could make me feel better about that I would appreciate that raedog@gmail.com. June 17,2007. Thanks Rae

Added a few links recently deleted, apparantly by accident

I just re-added a few of the links that hu12 just deleted. While I agree with his reason for deleting links (as per the wikipedia:NOT) he/she didn't seem to realize that many of the links under that sub-heading were not actually industry links. Of the 10 links or so that were deleted I re-added 3 or 4 of these links. I did this on the grounds that they contain good information, and also that the reason for deleting them did not make sense. Also, when all of those links were deleted all that remained were the environmentalist/health and safety links, making for a very biased section. Consider the fact that PVC is the 2nd most commonly used polymer today, and then look at how much of the text of this article is devoted to enflammatory remarks from biased editors. But I digress. I think the links have good information and show the pros and cons of the material as a whole. If anyone disagree's with my un-deletion please discuss it here on the talk page before deleting the links again. Despite the nasty tone of the article PVC is not a bad or dangerous material and it has bothered me for a long time that the article is so biased... CoolMike 19:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

PVC as a craft material

Please see this article; polymer clay. Just thought it could at least be mentioned briefly.I'd also quite like to see a section on working with PVC. It has a lot on health risks from finished products, and quite a nice little section on what it is used to make. I do agree that we don't want a section on PVC in art, but a bit on working with this material would be appriciated. I am a lemon 01:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

"Despite the high costs of PVC to the natural environment and human health, it is still widely used." is this a truly undisputed fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.44.145 (talk) 09:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's a green lobby POV.GimpyFauxHippy (talk) 11:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Young's modulus

The quoted Young's modulus seems high - is there a reference supporting it?

<a href="http://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.11/www/modules/props.pdf">MIT</a> quotes Young's modulus for PVC at 1.5 GPa (= 1500 MPa). <a href="http://www.visteon.com/utils/whitepapers/2004_01_0012.pdf">SAE</a> quotes Young's modulus for acrylic at 1.7 GPa.

From hands-on experience, acrylic seems stiffer than PVC... 71.252.112.144 18:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Hemp

Hemp proponents make this claim: "Plastic plumbing pipe (PVC pipes) can be manufactured using renewable hemp cellulose as the chemical feed stocks, replacing non-renewable coal or petroleum based chemical feed stocks." Is this true? Bodhi.peace (talk) 16:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Potentially, yes. Hydrolysis of cellulose gives sugars, which, when fermented, give ethanol. Ethanol is dehydrated to give ethylene. Currently ethylene is produced from oil. Once there is ethylene, the process is the same as established: ethylene is chlorinated to ethylene dichloride, which is decomposed to give vinyl chloride. Vinyl chloride is polymerized to PVC. See for example [2]. However, the real problem is the feedstock. Oil is cheaper than biomass, and there is simply not enough arable land on Earth to replace the current oil demand with biomass. Furthermore, hydrolysis of cellulose is a non-trivial reaction to commercialize. It is being currently investigated. .. Plus, there's another nontrivial problem that chlorine is produced by electrolysis (the chlor-alkali process). This requires massive amounts of electricity, which has its own environmental issues - it should be renewable, too. .. Also, I doubt that hemp fiber would be the ideal feedstock; sugar cane or similar plants can produce sugar directly. --Vuo (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Melting Temperature

The temperatures information, Glass temperature 87 °C , Melting point 80 °C , Vicat B1 85 °C, make no sense and seem to be contradictory. At the very least they need an explanation like what is meant by "melting point" because PVC does not melt at 80ºC in the sense that it becomes a running liquid. GS3 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

PVC doesn't really have a single melting temperature because it doesn't actually melt completely; and the amount that melts kind-of depends. When PVC is "molten", in actuality it only contains so much melt that despite containing solid, it flows (another such mixture is wet concrete). --Vuo (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I still don't understand how can Glass temperature be higher than Melting point temperature... Here in the table there is written PVC's glass temperature as 81 °C which is slightly different than 87 °C here. What's right? 85.207.232.12 (talk) 00:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Being replaced?

I {fact}'d this:

In recent years, PVC has been replacing traditional building materials such as wood, concrete and clay in many areas. The use of non-PVC materials has been on the rise due to concerns about the environmental and toxicity characteristics of PVC.

This is weasel wording. "Is being gradually replaced"? "Has been on the rise"? There should be a general policy on Wikipedia that such claims should not be added at all without citations. The problem is this: in reality, many things that "are being gradually replaced" aren't. It would be nice if all potential health effects would lead to a total ban, but this does not happen, or it happens in a geographically very limited way. Rather, phrasing like this is a value judgement, i.e. saying that it is so because it should be so. However, until there are enforced laws that actually effect limitations or bans, or (non-fringe) rejection on the world market, the phrase "is being gradually replaced" sounds reasonable but actually means nothing, and does not belong in a general encyclopedia. To counteract this 'citation needed', substantiate the simple claim that is made: it has significant toxicity and pollution effects and it is these effects that lead to governments and other decisionmakers imposing actual limitations of use, with suspect jumps in logic in italics. And don't just dig up some editorial from a webzine; the bare fact that someone expresses this opinion does not mean it is so. --Vuo (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Use in clothing

PVC is commonly used in clothing in the goth/punk/fetish subculture. I was surprised this wasn't mentioned, especially considering that Latex has it's own article about Latex clothing. Can we get something about that in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.24.220 (talk) 08:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Bisphenol A

Bisphenol A says that chemical is used in PVC, and there are health concerns about it leeching from polycarbonate. Are there corresponding concerns over Bisphenol A leeching from PVC? -- Beland (talk) 18:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

A quick googling revealed (Analytica Chimica Acta, Volume 539, Issues 1-2, 10 May 2005, Pages 41-47, doi:10.1016/j.aca.2005.03.051) that a single container tested leached bisphenol A (not Bisphenol A, it's not a brand name) an amount one order of magnitude higher than polycarbonates. That is an amount, not rate of leaching. Considering the small amount of additive bisphenol A in PVC vs. the quantitative amount - that hopefully mostly polymerizes - going into polycarbonate, the absolute rate may be higher for PVC. Not that surprising if it's as is in PVC and polymerized in polycarbonates. Another question is the interpretation of the result, because PVC doesn't have the same end uses as PC. Also, it may be that the opportunity cost is higher than replacing it. (That is, it may take hundreds of millions of dollars to replace it and theoretically save one or two lives, instead of thousands saved should the same sum be spent on e.g. water treatment.) --Vuo (talk) 19:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

hi

استخدامات بولس فينيل كلورايد

في الصناعات الانشائية لانابيب pvc التي تحيط الانابيب والاسلاك والقابلوات للوقاية من الرطوبة والتشوهات الميكانيكية والتاثيرات الكيمياوية ولنقل الغازات المضغوطة ولعزل الصفائح —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.205.180.4 (talk) 09:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Link in one of the references not working

There is a reference with a link to http://www.bsc.ca.gov/documents/PR07-02_final__pics.pdf which is not working. Please fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.128.221 (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Wizard191 (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Gramophone records?

Shouldn't gramophone records be mentioned in the Applications section. It was the world's defining physical medium for music from the 50s to the 80s, and possibly again in a few years time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.145.196 (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Dioxins section inconsistency

There are two seemingly contradictory statements at different ends of the "Dioxins" section:

Also, scientific tests wherein municipal refuse containing several known concentrations of PVC was burned in a commercial-scale incinerator showed no relationship between the PVC content of the waste and dioxin emissions.

The next largest sources of dioxin in the EPA inventory are medical and municipal waste incinerators. Studies have shown a clear correlation between dioxin formation and chloride content and indicate that PVC is a significant contributor to the formation of both dioxin and PCB in incinerators.

Both statements are cited, and I'm not surprised that there are conflicting citable references out there. However, the section should probably be rewritten to acknowledge this contradiction rather than making two incompatible assertions at different points in the text. --216.68.32.47 (talk) 21:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I think I've fixed this. Wizard191 (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Toxic PVC pipe fumes

What is the actual melting point of common PVC pipe? How does it behave around that temperature? What fumes are actually given off? Are they hazardous or toxic? To what extent?

On the internet, "everyone knows" that PVC pipe fumes are toxic, supposedly. But what reliable detailed sources are there for this claim?

A Georgia Tech grad student in 2000 claimed[3] that the smoke was hazardous, but makes no specific claims about fumes from melting without smoke.

It seems that PVC is a thermoplastic without a definite melting point. There are many DIY projects based on heating and bending it. It may be reasonably safe to melt in small amounts outdoors with good ventilation. Or not?

• http://www.wagerco.com/pvc/pvcPipeMSDS/pvcPipeMSDS.html

• www.sandersonpipe.com/msds.pdf

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
PVC PIPE

Efforts of Overexposure
There are no significant health hazards from vinyl compound at ambient temperatures.
Inhalation of decomposition or combustion products, especially hydrogen chloride, will
cause irritation of the respiratory tract, eyes and skin. Depending on the severity of
exposure, physiological response will be coughing, pain and inflammation. Individuals
with bronchial asthma and other types of chronic obstruction respiratory diseases may
develop bronchial spasms if exposure is prolonged.

Ventilation
Provide efficient exhaust at all operations creating fumes or vapor. Cutting or sawing,
machining, heat welding, thermofolding and other operations involving heat sufficient to
result in degradation should be examined to ensure adequate ventilation.

Since PVC is so common, and accidents do happen, how many people a year are actually harmed by PVC fumes and smoke?-96.237.8.162 (talk) 13:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

LCD Cleaning

This does not make sense. It seems out of context or poorly translated. "Its inherent ability to absorb particles from the LCD screen and its form fitting characteristics make it effective." Chris Murphy (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I removed it. It's doesn't make any sense and it's been marked as needing a citation for a long time. Wizard191 (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

martial arts

dont they use pvc in martial arts as well; I personaly use a gray electrical pvc pipe as a bo staff and white pvc for nunchucks as well. Could we find a source for the matial arts use of pvc? IF needed i could do that in my free time. 68.70.14.63 (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)unknown68.70.14.63 (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What about PVC figures?

I dragged myself here after reading a few figure.fm posts worrying about the toxidity of the PVC in their display figures, and its use in millions upon billions of commercially-released dolls and statues in Japan isn't noted in the article at all. Don't you think there should be some kind of mention in the uses box? 82.37.246.236 (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Disproportionate Lead section

The lead section makes no mention of the environmental and health controversies surrounding this material, not even pro-rata to the main body content. It however makes reference to "figurines" which would seem to account for an infinitesimal proportion of its use, not even mentioned under applications, where it should surely be first. I'll fix these issues if no good reason to leave as-is is posted in the next week or so. Trev M  ~  15:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Trev M  ~  13:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Expansion

Hello, I would like to expand the discussion on PVC with the latest information available on emissions during manufacture, certain chemical additives and recycling. I am now retired but worked in the PVC industry for many years. Currently I am involved with a professional members organisation where,amongst other objectives,sound knowledge and information is made available to communities.StuPat (talk) 12:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do. Be bold! I am not a subject matter expert, but an educated layman and know the Wikipedia aspects thoroughly. I'll help where I can. —EncMstr (talk) 17:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Having just given the Applications section a bit of a shake-out, and stood back to look at the whole article, the environmental section now looks very heavy. For the non-tech visitor, I would suggest summarizing the detail on the main PVC page, and creating a sub-article containing this detail. I'll help... if consensus and others would like to help. Trev M  ~  15:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Archiving this page

I'm about to set up achiving with misa bot on this page, as is common practice with talk pages, as the page is full of redundant stuff. I'll set it up to leave posts younger than about 2 months, with a minimum of 6 threads on page. There is a template to mark any that shouldn't be archived, if need be.

see User:MiszaBot/config

Any objections?

Trev M  ~  16:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Editing Jan, 2012

Please be patient while I edit this page somewhat. PVC is an important material and there is lots of controlversy. Some of the material temporarily removed will be restored in a day or two.--Smokefoot (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Chemical Properties Section missing

Hi,

I was looking for the chemical properties of PVC, particularly the reactions with Petroleum derivatives like Petroleum jelly, Kerosene, Diesel and Gasoline. As I dont see a chemical properties section, should I add it?