User talk:Honorsteem

January 2012

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Reductio ad Hitlerum, please cite a reliable source for your addition. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. McGeddon (talk) 10:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi thanks. See my contribution on the talk page there. -- Honorsteem (talk) 11:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure I understand your argument; sure, eugenics is a bad thing and it is churlish to dismiss debate of it as "reductio ad Hitlerum". All I'm drawing your attention to is the need for clarity and sourcing - a Wikipedia article shouldn't say "there has been criticism, concern and trouble regarding this subject, but we're not going to tell you where", it should say "person X has criticised it, group Y is concerned about it, and newspaper Z regarded it as 'troubling'". WP:WEASEL has a bit more about this. It's our duty to the reader to tell them where a reaction is coming from, and if it's seeming to come from nowhere (either because it's the opinion of the editor writing the sentence, or because it's "common sense"), we need to take a look through some newspapers and find someone who's actually said it. Does this sound reasonable? --McGeddon (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although I'd add that the article doesn't really need a "criticism" section - reductio ad Hitlerum is clearly presented as a "fallacy" throughout, rather than a useful and ironclad argumentative tool. --McGeddon (talk) 11:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was more referring to the using of the term. If someone says "X is like the nazi's" - where X is a valid point, and then the opponent else says, "Hah! RaH!" - then the discussion is terminated. -- 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure, people can incorrectly mistake a reasonable argument for a reductio ad Hitlerum (just as a stupid person can misidentify any argument to be any fallacy in the book), but as I say, you'll need to provide a source that's considered this particular instance remarkable, if it's going to be written about in an encyclopedia. --McGeddon (talk) 12:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

February 2012

Discussion moved to Talk:Daniel Pipes#Moved conversation -- Honorsteem (talk) 09:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Talkback

Hello, Honorsteem. You have new messages at Jayjg's talk page.
Message added 18:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Jayjg ^(talk) 18:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Honorsteem, I added a comment to the ANI thread that I hope you will find of interest. Groeten, Drmies (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked

I indefinitely blocked you for the disruptive editing and hounding issues. The clean start problems only add fuel to the fire. If you would like to appeal this block please place {{Unblock|Your Reason for being unblocked}} on your talk page. --Guerillero | My Talk 05:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Honorsteem (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

As for "One to the pillars of clean starts is that an editor leaves the areas that he was once editing in.": I've never issued the Jewish-topics before with my old account (as far as Im aware of). Nobody asked me for my old account details, though, so Im surprised by your conclusion?
Regarding the hounding accusation, it was dealt with at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance#Jayjg_accusing_me_of_wikihounding.
As for formal reasoning, I have not been notified there was a case against me at AN/I. The topic with moving the thread was resolved as it turned out I had all right to do so.
To me this seems like dirty case where Jayjg can't get his way the first time (deleting his moved comments), and gets back this way, comfortably shutting me down at List of Jewish Nobel laureates. If this is tolerated, I indeed have no business on Wikipedia. -- Honorsteem (talk) 10:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

WP:NOTTHEM. It does appear that you are not WP:CLEANSTART, but actually improperly using alternate accounts at this time. I suggest you re-read WP:CLEANSTART and WP:ALTERNATE to understand the differences, and try to be a little less battleground-like in your on-wiki actions. This is a collaborative project, and your actions overall do not suggest you understand this. Please do not submit another request until the ANI thread has finished, and you're prepared to follow the suggestions that come from there (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

I am aware of NOTTHEM, did you read the my actual unblock request? Question: Is it then okay for being blocked when the ANI thread is not yet finished? How am I supposed to make my case? -- 11:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The topic with moving the thread was resolved as it turned out I had all right to do so. - No, you do not and did not have the right to do so. And yes, being blocked while the AN/I thread is running is perfectly fine, especially since the issue here is improper use of alternate accounts - i.e sockpuppetry - in violation of the claimed WP:CLEANSTART. The continued insistence that you are cleanstarting, in the face of evidence to the contrary (not the least of which being this...), doesn't help your case. The claim I have not been notified there was a case against me at AN/I is verifiably false, as directly above Drmies pointed your attention to it following his raising the cleanstart issues there, and you even posted there after the cleanstart issues were raised - to attempt to summarily dismiss them. If you ignored AN/I after your attempt to say This issue is now closed - something you did not have the "right" to do - that's your fault, not theirs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tanks for getting back to me.

About the serviceaward: on WP:SVC it states "These awards are unofficial – displaying the wrong one carries no penalty, and displaying the right one does not indicate authority or competence.". Please explain me what I did wrong?
Did I not have the right to move the topic from my user page? That seems to have been the outcome of that part of the thread.
I'm sorry I was not aware of special etiquette ruling ANI (it is my first case there) and in other on-line forums this would be a case of thread hijacking. Also, I don't see how my interpretation has been disruptive?

So I apologize for incorrectly stating the AN/I discussion was closed.

Now Drmies published my old user name, can you please in more detail tell me how I perverted WP:CLEANSTART? It still says A user who is not under current restrictions or blocks may stop using their current account and start using a new one. I gave a short and precise summary of my situation, and also my grounds for switching accounts here and I felt there was nothing more to say about it, so I WP:LETGO. For now I still do not see how my clean start invalidated my participation at the discussion of either the Jewish lists or WP/ANI, or, even worse, was disruptive.
Regarding the Hounding complaint, I refer again to the Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance-link given above. Editors there say more wise sensible things then I can. I admit my attention was drawn to the topic through Jayjg's edits, but to me, hounding indicates some kind of structural behaviour which I do not show. Also, it seems to me fair for first being warned, before being blocked indefinitely?
My statement that I had not been formally notified that there was a case against me at AN/I was a procedural point and you are welcome to disagree.
I was not aware I have been (also) blocked of breaching the sock-puppet policy. Drmies seems to collaborate that. Please elaborate? I deny accusations of sock puppetry. -- Honorsteem (talk) 12:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously I won't tackle the unblock request, but I do want to say a few things. Contrary to your assertion, this note at ANI does not satisfy the clean start requirement, letter or spirit. You didn't disclose, you didn't put a notice on the other user/talk pages, you didn't place a redirect, nothing like that, and you did use User:Eiland to make another edit in January. That you wanted to make that edit in itself is understandable--someone asked you something--but it would have been so much better had you been clear that this was a retired account (which, by definition, it is since you evoked clean start). And I gave you ample opportunity at ANI to do so; why you didn't take me up on it is a mystery to me, and it does suggest there is something hidden. Couple all that with the 78,000 edit service badge, or whatever the amount was, and there is a cloud hanging over your clean start, a suggestion that you are avoiding scrutiny (note where the shortcut WP:SCRUTINY goes).
I haven't delved into the edits you made before and after, but I am probably going to have a look at them to see if your claim is correct, that you haven't gone back to contentious areas with the new name ("will edit in new areas and avoid old disputes").
For the life of me, I don't understand why you didn't meet the simple requirements of clean start, not even after this became in issue in the thread. BTW, of course that wasn't a hijacking: I cited WP:BOOMERANG, and those boomerangs fly all over the place at ANI--it is to be expected. You seemed to have some grudge against me, though I don't think we ever met--still, the advice I gave you was solid and the questions I asked were fair. I did notify you and tried to communicate with you, and that there was no good response just adds to the cloud of suspicion. I have no desire to see you blocked: I don't even know you, and I don't edit (I think) in the areas where you are active. I do have a desire to see that things are done in daylight. If you wish to be unblocked, I think the first thing you have to do is take care of the old accounts, one way or another (but I suggested this at ANI already, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=477384911 here, six days ago). I have nothing to do with your block on the Dutch pedia, and I don't even care. But as long as you don't understand, or don't acknowledge, that your behavior is what got this going, and to which extent a start is a clean start is determined by behavior. I've gone on too long; I hope this helps. Drmies (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Beste DRMIES,

I don't think you 100% understand the clean start-idea? IMO: Not to be identified anymore with a (clean) old account. It would kind of defeat its purpose by making reference from the old or the new account to each other, now would it? And come on, my edit in January, get a life, will you? "The spirit of the clean start policy"... Also, do get in line with the other editors above with "well earned service badges", and feel free to complain on my not so well earned, and totally pointless service award.
Your offer to disclose to others, by mail, my old account credentials - or to even hash my password! - after I myself had offered exactly the same thing (the disclosure by mail) kind of lit the smoldering fire (do note other "uninvolved?" editors showing up at ANI). As nobody asked me by mail - and I assume nobody asked you? - I am even more appalled by you putting it on AN/I, blowing indeed this clean start. If that is the last of it I guess I'll ask the arbcom about it (how a donkey i can be). Maybe I'll propose User talk:KevinPerros to bundle our cases. Honorsteem (talk) 09:46, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

2nd, last attempt

This user is asking that their block be reviewed:

Honorsteem (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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