Talk:Counter-jihad

wikiproject fascism

Bellatores keeps reverting the insertion of the WikiProject tagging without discussion in the talk page, and has been reverted by three different users. Clearly there is no consensus for the removal. One user, when restoring, included [1] as a reason. Other than that no one, including Bellatores, has done anyhting other than speak via edit summary. While I love its twitter-like qualities, which mean succinct messages, this clearly needs to stop and be discussed under BRD.

So, discuss. In the meantime, consensus clearly shows "keep" so do not change it again or we will think you are edit warring. We could change it after a process of discussion, but we should discuss it first instead of warring.--Cerejota (talk) 07:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to include the anti-Islamic "counterjihad" in a WikiProject about Fascism, a very unrelated and deeply conflicting political ideology on so many levels. It is thus you who support this inclusion who have to come up with relevant sources etc. to make this inclusion, not me. Given that reliable sources for this ignorant notion of course don't exist, the entire claim is so blatantly POV that it needs to be removed asap. – Bellatores (t.) 10:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, about the Guardian source, it actually says "usually if inaccurately dubbed neo-fascist or extreme right", and it even talks about what it calls "the New Populists", which it makes clear are political parties and politicians, not counterjihad. Although perhaps in a sense related to counterjihad, there is no direct basis for attaching this label (which even the Guardian notes is rather inaccurate) to the counterjihad at all. – Bellatores (t.) 10:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That's all fine and dandy, but if you replace this again, your will be reported for edit warring. So many editors have reverted you, it clear your position is not consensus. Consenus can change and you make a compelling case, but lets at least hear from those who reverted you. OK?--Cerejota (talk) 18:06, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The view that the counterjihadists are a brand of fascists gets strong support in this analysis of Fjordman's writings, and Fjordman, no doubt is a mainstream counterjihadist. This report also makes an argument to that point. --benjamil (talk) 18:34, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

these sources should be included in the text.-- mustihussain (talk) 19:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Oops, benjamil had already linked So, what’s the deal with Fjordman?. And thank you very much for Toby Archer's report, I'll read it as soon as I can. Unfortunatly, the first page say "Draft version, please do not cite without authors permission". But Toby Archer has a blog, including Toby Archer, What's up with the "Counter-Jihad"?, 2010-10-16, which link Charles Johnson, Pamela Geller and the bloggers of hate, 2010-10-14. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:13, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

See for example Øyvind Strømmen, Hello, Fjordman!, 2007-12-09, and Øyvind Strømmen, So, what’s the deal with Fjordman?, 2011-08-05, quoted in Fjordman oppfordrer indirekte til vold, 2011-08-05, for Fjordman called a fascist, or Geller rettferdiggjør terrorangrep, 2011-08-03, for Pamela Geller called a far-rightist. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a self-published, openly "anti-fascist", freelance journalist is a very authorative source. One should also note that the counterjihad is broader than just Fjordman, even though he of course was a very central writer. Being an (alleged) "far-rightist" does also not automatically imply that one adheres to the fascist ideology. – Bellatores (t.) 22:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

+1 Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 07:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I would like to make the point that almost any non-idolizing source on fascism will be openly "anti-fascist", since fascist ideology is widely regarded as an abomination, and people taking an interest in it will have to distance themselves from it in some way or another in order to gain social acceptance. The judgement of an analysis' merit should be made on terms of its logic, coherence and scope, not solely on its author's political views. Strømmen's analysis does quite clearly show how Fjordman's writings conform to a scholarly definition of fascism, regardless of his stated position. Furthermore, this definition, which for the ease of discussion I will quote here, probably does apply to a greater part of the counterjihadist movement than Fjordman himself (and I guess Toby Archer's writings point that out).

"[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence." - Roger Griffin

Although the article should, of course, adhere to WP:NOR and WP:POV, and I will not argue that all counterjihadists are fascists (such a claim would be logically invalid and impossible to document), it is clear that the movement has significant ties to parties and organizations on the European anti-immigration far right, some of which are arguably fascist. Under WP:BDR I'll try to expand the article to incorporate these facts. Any help will be appreciated.--benjamil (talk) 08:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok. I've now expanded the article, added some subheadings and listed a scholarly source, as well as one of the movement's most prominent members view on why the movement exists. The negative allegations have been grouped into one paragraph and to some extent rephrased in more neutral language. The paragraph on organization is rather stubbish, but offers a starting point for further editing. I've done a bit of research and expect to be able to write a couple of paragraphs on various affiliate organizations. For the convenience of other editors, take a look at this report and this internet resource. The question of whether counterjihad should be grouped with the project fascism as such remains unresolved, for my part. --benjamil (talk) 19:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

If we are to use Øyvind Strømmen as a source for the claim that Fjordman is a fascist, then we should also make note that Strømmen has advocated the de facto banishment of all counterjihad thinkers from being given space in newspapers and media (fascism is relative, eh?).[2] I think it is unacceptable to include counterjihad in WikiProject Fascism, when all it comes down to is the claim from an obviously non-neutral activist that one counterjihadist may be considered to have certain ideological similarities with fascism. The ground is just way too weak. – Bellatores (t.) 23:09, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

If you are going to use people's political views as an argument against their analyses, you can't call Hannah Arendt an authority on Holocaust, nor Nelson Mandela an expert on apartheid. Currently, Strømmen is only used as a reference for a claim that Fjordman is a fascist. --benjamil (talk) 22:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

2011-09 epic win

For the record, according to Baron Bodissey, The Breivik Portfolio, Part Four: The Dot-Connection, Gates of Vienna, 2011-08-29, the 2011 Norway attacks were an epic win for the Counterjihad movement, because of "the increased Gates of Vienna traffic, which was unprecedented. The number of new readers at Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs [...] must have been astronomical. [...] Mr. Breivik [...] showed himself to be brilliant, dedicated, focused, and single-minded at Utøya." Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

2011-12 self description

For the record: A Brief History of the Transatlantic Counterjihad, Gates of Vienna, 2011. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Confusion about this movement

I haven't heard of "Counterjihad" before, and I find this article confusing. To begin with, keeping in mind the WP:BLP implications of the labeling going on here, can people here provide three reliable sources each for the claim that it is "Islamophobic" and "far-right"? We would need the source, and the quote that explicitly uses the term "Islamophobic" or "Far-right". Jayjg ^(talk) 20:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Islamophobic

Source 1 (source and quote using the phrase "Islamophobic"):

Source 2 (source and quote using the phrase "Islamophobic"):

Source 3 (source and quote using the phrase "Islamophobic"):

"Far-right"

Source 1 (source and quote using the phrase "Far-right"):

Source 2 (source and quote using the phrase "Far-right"):

Source 3 (source and quote using the phrase "Far-right"):

If you haven't heard about it earlier it might be a good idea to start by reading the article and the sources given there.

Islamophobic

http://www.goteborgsfria.se/artikel/89385 "Counterjihadrörelsen har uppstått ur den spridda islamofobi som växt efter 11 september 2001." trans: "The counterjihad movement has it's origin in the scattered islamophobia that has grown up since September 11 2001."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201172611337853373.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/aug/23/thinktanks-islamism-muslims-islamophobia

http://maxblumenthal.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-a-perfect-product-of-the-axis-of-islamophobia/

http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/b50eb324856c44359cd8669a99809381/EU--Europes-New-Far-Right/ "Europe's new right-wing radicals focuse on Islamophobia instead of white supremacy /../ The anti-Islamic movement's ideological roots can be found in the so-called "counterjihadist" community of American and European bloggers"

Far right

http://www.svd.se/kultur/understrecket/diffus-rorelse-med-muslimer-som-hatobjekt_6364272.svd "Det är en ny form av höger­extremism som redan fått inflytande på populistiska partier." trans. "It's a new form of far right that already have influence in populistic parties."

http://uit.no/getfile.php?PageId=1410&FileId=1337 "Learning to love the Jews: the impact of the War on Terror and the counter-jihad blogosphere on European far right parties."

http://www.goteborgsfria.se/artikel/89385 "Den nya högerextremismens terroristiska uttryck" trans. "The terroristic expression of the new far right"

http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/b50eb324856c44359cd8669a99809381/EU--Europes-New-Far-Right/ "far-right group that claims it's not opposed to foreigners in general, just Muslims."

//Liftarn (talk)

Sorry, I don't see any of the quotes. Given that many of these are non-English sources, it would be particularly helpful if you provided them. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

O.K., I looked at the first three English sources given under "Islamophobic". The first is an opinion piece in Al Jazeera by Jim Lobe that does explicitly describe "counter-jihad" as Islamophobic - not sure why exactly Wikipedia would cite this particular source on this. The second, an opinion piece in the Comment is Free section of the online Guardian, uses both terms, but doesn't make a clear statement that I can see. The third is a blog. As far as I can tell, this is the usual mishmash of opinions, unreliable sources, and WP:OR. Could someone please list the information as requested? Reliable source, and quote explicitly stating the claim? I'll wait another day or two, but then I'll move the material to the article Talk: page. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

So even when removing some sources that may be questionable we still have two solid sources for the islamophobia claim and still four for the far right claim. As you earlier dismissed Der Spiegel, the largest weekly news magazine in Europe, as "a blog" perhaps you should revisit the sources provided. // Liftarn (talk)

Breivik manifesto

Reading through this article, I came across this sentence:

Anders Behring Breivik, responsible for the 2011 Norway attacks, published a manifesto explaining his views which drew heavily on the work of counterjihad bloggers such as Fjordman.

I read the source supporting this particular sentence, and its use appears to be WP:NOR, since it nowhere mentions "Counterjihad". Can anyone here explain why it is being used here? Have I missed a reference to Counterjihad in the source? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes you have. By example "Hundreds of pages were written by other right-wing bloggers, Breivik simply copied and pasted them into his treatise. Dozens of chapters were published in recent years on blogs like Gates of Vienna (GoV) and The Brussels Journal, two of his most-cited sources. Breivik himself claimed to follow the "Viennese school of thought," a direct reference to GoV." (The current version of the article say that "Counterjihad as a movement is mainly Internet-based, and centers around blogs such as Jihad Watch, Atlas Shrugs and Gates of Vienna and The Brussels Journal.")

So apparently I haven't? The source doesn't actually mention "Counterjihad", the topic of this article? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:43, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

You have missed reference to Counterjihad in the source, which explicitly mention "Gates of Vienna", "The Brussels Journal", "Fjordman", "anti-Jihad". Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the source mentions those blogs, but says nothing whatsoever about "Counterjihad". Blogs invariably say all sorts of things, and the source doesn't actually connect all this to "Counterjihad", which is apparently a specific thing. WP:NOR explicitly forbids Wikipedia editors from making these kinds of connections that sources do not make. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:50, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The article correctly mentions Breivik's copious usages of Counterjihad literature. However, it is somewhat ambiguous when it says "his views ... drew heavily on." What views? His goals and ambitious for Norway? Or his view on violent conflict? The reason I bring this up is that there is and was a condemnation of his tactics (see ref 5, New York Times). Just as we used to distinguish between socialism and communism by the latter's dedication to violent overthrow, we should be careful not to imply that Breivik's revolutionary philosophy is shared by what may be a movement that is dedicated to democratic change. During the Cold War, calling all socialist "communists" was considered "red-baiting" and unfair. As far as I know, Breivik's terrorist attack and all violent revolutionary action is rejected by the leaders of the counterjihad. One can find most of them condemning violence as a path to social change. They seem to be the "socialist" evolutionary types while Breivik is the "communist" revolutionary counterpart.

I suggest we add a quote from ref 5 that balances this statement:

"'Baron Bodissey,' wrote on the site Sunday that 'at no time has any part of the Counterjihad advocated violence.'" [5]

Jason from nyc (talk) 13:01, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

My assumption from the term counterjihad is a movement attempting to counter the violent or extremist components of those believing they are fighting in "holy war". Both Breviks manifesto and the aforementioned blogs present an counter-jihadist approach. whereas Breviks adopted an approach more similar to a jihadist attack. Theres irony there but aslong as there is a separation between Brevik and the counter jihadist blogs (as suggested above)it should remain neutral

Missing or Incorrect Links

There is no wiki page for "Edward S. May" nor do I see any reference that May is Barron Bodissey. Was the page or link removed? This needs to be fixed. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Have you already read Wikipedia:Red link? Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. That helps since I expected to find a page on May that explained the connection to Baron Bodissey. I did note on the Wikipedia:Red link page the following: "Red links to personal names should be avoided—particularly when the name is reported in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual. Frequently a red-linked name has been placed in an article, and subsequently a different editor has created an article about an entirely different person with the same or a similar name." I was just concerned with possible misidentification. Hopefully care will be taken to avoid any problems. Jason from nyc (talk) 02:04, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

anti-Islam or Islamophobic

I see some disagreement about the best way to describe this movement. There were some edits (not by me) over a POV issue. Let me raise the issue for discussion although I suspect it might have been discussed before.

The current versions describes the movement as Islamophobic. On the Islamophobia page it says: Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims. Thus, a judgment is being made as to whether the movement is irrational in its fear. Should this be in a definition? I clearly should be expressed below with experts cited. But a definition should state the genus and differentia. Yes, I know the first statement isn't a formal definition. However, calling the movement irrational by definition puts forth a point of view, WP:POV. I suggest that Islamophobic be replaced by anti-Islam or better yet anti-Islamism. Further down, experts can be cited on the question of irrational or prejudice (i.e. a pre-jugment), etc. This should satisfy all and reach a consensus. Jason from nyc (talk) 13:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

No it says "hatred or irrational fear". The counterjihad movement is more into hatred even if there also is a major component of irrational fear. Being against islamism and being against those who you perceive to be Muslims is two very different things. And may I add that we use reliable sources for the texts, not our own semantic analysis. // Liftarn (talk)

The New York Times article (ref 2) seems clear and there is no mention of hate in this regard. It uses such phrases as anti-Islamic, civilizational war between Islam, and fight on behalf of transnational .... Thus, the correct phrase would be anti-Islam. It is clear from article that this is a political movement. This or in Islamophobic means that the word is wide enough to apply to any criticism of Islam (see the use in the phrase Islam or Muslims.). If you are being more specific than you should ... be more specific. All references agree with anti-Islam while only some references would say anti-Muslim. The lead should say anti-Islam while the discussion should cite authors who would go further and those who wouldn't. If Wikipedia is going to be a general reference is shouldn't overstate the case in the lead sentence but allow the reader see the views of reputable authors in the body of the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

"Anti-Islam" would be somewhat correct. "Anti-Islamism" would be false. Also note that it sourced to a reliable source so there is no problem with that. // Liftarn (talk)

I have no problem with the sources that I'm able to read. I think anti-Islamic would be a reasonable change. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement and I've made the changes to use anti-Islamic (and note the hyperlink). If I'm mistaken let's continue to talk. Jason from nyc (talk) 13:32, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not what the source says so I've made a compromise edit that includes both descriptions. // Liftarn (talk)

If you don't mind continuing the discussion I'd like to understand how you get that from the 1st reference, i.e. Toby Archer's Swedish article. My translator doesn't show the word Islamophobia. I see certain sections that may suggest that. For example:

This fear of Islam and Muslims is central and distinguishing feature of the counter jihad.

He goes on to clarify those fears:

European Muslims have come to be portrayed as a threat from a security perspective, as if all would-be terrorists, or at least in danger of being radicalized. There also arose a perception that Muslims pose a threat from a cultural perspective, with expositions that Islam is incompatible with Europe's traditions. ... In short, the American fear of Islam was linked to counter-terrorism, while Europeans established the links with immigration.

However, he notes that such fears are not uncommon among the wider population:

The idea of multiculturalism has failed, is now being promoted by many politicians, even among the moderate left and right parties ...

Finally he notes that the counter-jihadi, with a few exception such as the liberal gay Bruce Bawer, tend to be cultural conservatives. Thus, I don't see the more harsh term, Islamophobia, distinguishing the broad concerns of immigration and assimilation with the unique focus of the counter-jihadi. I'm not saying there isn't a heightened sense of alarm in the counter-jihadi movement. Obviously there is. I'm just questioning wether the first reference is clearly suggesting Islamophobia. I think that's an inference--a respectable inference--but an inference nevertheless. It should be stating this outright and it shouldn't be the only reference to do so. I'd like you to reconsider anti-Islam which, as you point out, is one way to be Islamophobic and which, as I pointed out, is redirected to the Islamophobia page through the hyperlinks. Jason from nyc (talk) 00:24, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

One could argue that "fear of Islam and Muslims" and "islamophobia" is just two ways to say the same thing. // Liftarn (talk)

One could but we are making an inference from the author's work which I believe is discouraged in WP:Original or WP:Syn. And he mentions that some fears are shared across the political spectrum. I think we should be conservative until more is written by other authors. Even the Islamophobia page shows much controversy about the term. Archer never uses it. I don't think we're entitled to use it ... yet. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)