Talk:Philosophy

Science, its philosophy and a potential circularity

The page states: Philosophy is the rational[1] study of general subjects concerning which certainty cannot easily be established scientifically or by simple observation.

I would suggest that the study of what can be established easily scientifically falls within the philosophy of science and the study of what can be established by simple observation is necessarily a branch of philosophy of its own (though I don't know if it has a name, nor if it has been formally studied). Maybe the page needs refinement and clarification such that it clearly answers the question: what is philosophy in a way that includes all its branches yet excludes areas of thought that are not generally considered philosophy.John Allsup (talk) 20:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing your point but what can be established scientifically or by simple observation might indeed be wrong and might indeed in turn be studied philosophically. But that is a philosophical study of science, or of observation. The science and the observation are still separable from the study of them?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I have reverted the lede to the last stable wording, which did not state "Philosophy is the rational[1] study of general subjects concerning which certainty cannot easily be established scientifically or by simple observation."— Philogos (talk) 00:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Philogo. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

@John Allsup, I do not think what can be established scientifically is considered the philosophy of science. As the Columbia Encyclopedia citation states, "philosophy still considers the methods (as opposed to the materials) of science as its province". Studying about science is considered a philosophy. I agree that there needs to be refinement and clarification of what is philosophy rather than give example of some of its topics. The description of philosophy in the lead paragraph, using Columbia, would include those topics where, using available reasoning techniques, there can still be little agreement, such as morality and beauty, and excludes such topics as biology and chemistry whose reasoning methods, namely science, are widely accepted. Thus, as I cited, they were considered philosophies before use of the scientific method. Neurophysics (talk) 05:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Philogo and Rick. Also I think you are in danger of forgetting the role of science in modern philosophy, the increasing integration between cognitive science and philosophy of the mind etc. etc. Whatever you need agreement on the talk page before making major changes. --Snowded ^TALK 09:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

As was mentioned before, there needs to be refinement and clarification of “what is philosophy in a way that includes all its branches yet excludes areas of thought that are not generally considered philosophy.” As of now, the first sentence calls it the study of general and fundamental problems. That works fine for things like existence or logic but how is morality, aesthetics or, as written now, language anymore fundamental or general than physics? I thought Columbia’s descriptions about philosophy which concern the difficulty in establishing certainties captures both general, fundamental problems as well as not so general problems that are still hard to agree upon like ethics and beauty. @ Snowded, cognitive science may well integrate into philosophy of the mind as nobody required any disciplines to be black and white. The MRI and stuff are fully scientific and the great rest of it is still speculation and philosophy is sometimes defined as studying by “speculative rather than observational means.”[1] Perhaps, one day, like natural philosophies, better technology would make philosophy of the mind to not be considered a philosophy anymore. Neurophysics (talk) 00:53, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, I think you are creating a false dichotomy or two there --Snowded ^TALK 09:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I am in agreement with Snowded. It is not possible to understand what philosophy is from the viewpoint of science, because the separation of science and philosophy is itself a particular philosophical position. Philosophy is in a sense a type of rational enterprise which goes beyond whatever the normal limits of rational questioning are. Philosophy and science do TODAY have a practical distinction because science is common. On the other hand it would be easy to argue that this is partly just a change in word meaning whereby people are NOT remembering the distinction between technology and science in its purest sense, which is something much closer to philosophy. Anyway, just from simple point of view of historical facts, the term science was certainly not "coined to refer to the reasoning known as the scientific method" and the answers.com ref given also does not say this.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Some claim that philosophy is at an end because its questions will never be answered and, perhaps, should never have been asked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.15.163 (talk) 19:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Philosophy is a study much like psychology or astrology. The main point of philosophy in itself is to never have a final solution, much unlike psychology or astrology. However, it has numerous branches such as stoicism, epistemology, and Hellenistic philosophy. These can all be considered "solutions" to the main quandary posed by philosophy which is a search for answers to problems, basic problems. Every philosopher has a different solution and many people can agree on the same solution. Just because a search for the answer is difficult it does not mean that a question should be left unasked. I believe every searcher has an answer of his or her own to the all-consuming study that is philosophy. Eeshprince (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

A nice definition of philosophy.

I came across this reading Will and Ariel Durant's The Age of Voltaire, p. 605.

"By philosopher we shall mean anyone who tries to arrive at reasoned opinions on any subject whatever as seen in a large perspective."

Rick Norwood (talk) 12:15, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

That is the broadest definition, but realistically there needs to be a continuation which says that it especially refers to... I think this has always been a challenge. Just for example, would the above not apply to the thinking of a skilled craftsman solving a problem, or to religious contemplations?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

There is certainly a philosophy of religion. And I would also suggest a philosophy of craftsmanship would not be entirely out of the question. Of course, thinking about one particular religion or craft would probably miss the big picture. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:32, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

There is not need to debate the logic of whether, for example, philosophy of religion is religion, like a priest practices. (I think not.) The bigger question is whether the term philosophy is generally understood to include religion and the knowledge of a craftsman.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I think any defn. of philosophy that includes natural science is not right for a brief summary of the discipline. That's an historically accurate view--natural philosophy--but out of step with how the term is really used today. Philosophers study the methods of science, but no longer arrive at "reasoned opinions on [the] subject". The qualifier about a "large perspective" isn't clear enough to make it meaningful. But if we're not talking about re-working the lede then it's a good quote that merits a place in the article! I still like "philosophy is the study of its own history." JJL (talk) 18:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

How about, "Philosophy is the study of things which, if they were true, would be science." Rick Norwood (talk) 19:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the term philosophy, taken strictly in the recent way that excludes "science", a word people confuse with technology, almost becomes meaningless. I am not saying that this problem gives an entirely wrong impression. But I think to explain what the word philosophy means in books where it is found, we need to represent both of the two extreme positions, without relying souly on either.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

---

Why not use the simple, clear, and concise Prof ACGrayling definition of philosophy: that it is enquiry - critical, reflective enquiry.

Or more fully...

Philosophy has been the driving force of progress and change throughout the history of our western culture - because philosophy is enquiry – critical, reflective enquiry. And it has turned into the natural sciences, and the empirical social sciences. It continues as part of this great conversation that we have to have, about how we should live and how we should organise our society. Philosophy is vital.

Most of this is descriptive in a more poetic way. The simple clear concise part is critical, reflective enquiry. This is not that different in spirit to any of the versions we have. One key difference is that it does not use the word rational. I think we are best to use the word rational because being critical and being reflective is also what lawyers and priests do. And this brings us to the bigger question we keep confronting is what to say, if anything, about what type of subject matter philosophy covers. The above proposal touches the same problem where it says that "it has turned into the natural sciences, and the empirical social sciences". But using those words in the first sentence would raise more questions than they would answer. (If philosophy turned into other things, then why is there still philosophy.) For a definition what we need is some description of what it is which unites all the different things called philosophy. Philosophy itself pushes rational critical thinking as far as it can. I would say that very lack of limits is what makes it what it is as distinct from technological science, religious thinking, legal thinking etc. You could almost say that whenever ANY type of critical thinking burst out of its normal boundaries, we call it philosophical. So if we define it too strictly in terms of subject matter then we are giving a distorted account. What we currently do, by mentioning examples of subjects it handles, without making them seem definitive, is probably the simplest and best we can do until someone comes up with a better proposal.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Lancaster, I see the point you make and I just have to agree. The best we can do as of now is mention examples of subjects it handles because I cannot imagine all of us agreeing to a single definition on such a topic. That said, can’t this be ameliorated by suggesting the few, broad perspectives? I was thinking something like this which you could happily improve on;

Philosophy is the rational study of subjects that broadly includes existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and language. These topics are sometimes defined by their general and fundamental nature (Jenny Teichmann and Katherine C. Evans). They are sometimes defined as any subjects where factual certainties cannot easily be established by scientific or other means (Columbia). Philosophy is also more broadly defined as including any critical, reflective enquiry (Prof ACGrayling).

I tried to make the last sentence allude to what I think Rick Norwood and others were suggesting. Is that right? Neurophysics (talk) 03:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but this discussion seems a bit beside the point. This is not a forum for discussing how to define philosophy -- WP:FORUM. What editors think philosophy is doesn't matter. The article must reflect the best scholarly consensus, as reflected in reliable secondary sources -- WP:SCHOLARSHIP. That is what the current lede does. The Durants' 50-year-old popular books are not even close to being the sort of reliable secondary sources WP policy enjoins us to use. Grayling's poetic short definition likewise -- Grayling is already cited as a source for the current lede, from a scholarly reference source. 271828182 (talk) 00:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I am back. I could agree that those sources could be unreliable but I believe atleast this should be the second sentence in the lead, “Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.These topics are sometimes defined as those where factual certainties are not easily established by scientific or other means.” This was discussed by Columbia Encyclopedia in the ‘distinguishing characteristics’ section.[2] As of now, nothing is mentioned suggesting how philosophy would include areas in natural philosophy if it was not for science. Neurophysics (talk) 12:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not opposed to this. We should wait for the reactions of others perhaps, given previous discussions.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

More feedback please. Neurophysics (talk) 14:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's start a conversation! Neurophysics (talk) 14:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Gee, should I just change it then? Neurophysics (talk) 05:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

No. There's not clearly consensus for it. JJL (talk) 05:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy, and asking for a consensus is not meant to be a way of choosing an edit without presenting an argument. There needs to be some rational reason not to make this edit if we are going to argue against it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I just happened to be reading this. I do not say we should use it here as such but I think it shows a very major philosopher agreeing with this point that philosophy deals with the non-obvious.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It is the task of philosophy to discover what is common even in what is different. According to Plato, the task of the philosophical dialectician is "to learn to see things together in respect of the one."

— Hans Georg Gadamer, The Relevance of the Beautiful and other essays (Walker trans.), 1986, p.12, citing Plato's Phaedrus 265d

The business from the Columbia Encyclopedia "distinguishing characteristics" sub-section is unhelpful, as it is based on a sharp distinction between "fact" and "theory" that is just the sort of thing considered in philosophy. In any case, a general encyclopedia article is an inferior source compared to scholarship from philosophy itself. All that is needed to distinguish philosophy from science narrowly considered is already in the definition, with the words "general and fundamental" and the list of specific problems. 271828182 (talk) 17:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

That's a fair comment, but it also makes it fairly clear that this is basically a wording issue and not a sourcing issue. I guess the question that has been raised is therefore something like whether the distinction between philosophy and science is being made clear enough. For example, if we say that the words "general and fundamental" and so on are what makes the difference, should we add the words "as opposed to science" (just to make a simple solution which is not a neat one). I have no strong position about it, but I do understand the question.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It is a sourcing issue, as none of the current sources draw a sharp distinction between science and philosophy. As I indirectly pointed out, asserting such a distinction would violate NPOV. 271828182 (talk) 10:00, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

But this response gives a different impression than your previous one. I agree that an artificially sharp distinction is not called for, but the two words refer to different things. Saying that there is a difference, does not mean that one is saying that the difference is a "sharp distinction". You however seem to be opposed to any clear statement that the words refer to different things?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no issue with Columbia as a source. Scholarship from philosophy would have been asked to write it anyway. Even if other sources should be given priority over it, what from other sources goes against it? Philosophy and science, however similar, are still two different things and this goes someway to explain this issue that many readers would find relevant. I added the history of the term in the etymology section, including some of the info below. I thought it would be less contentious as having the second sentence in the lead. But simply whitewashing this issue is a disservice to the readers. Neurophysics (talk) 14:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Fully understanding Newton means avoiding anachronistically substituting our conception of philosophy in the twenty-first century for what the early moderns called 'natural philosophy'. To be sure, the latter includes much that we now call 'science', and yet it clearly includes much else besides.[3]

Thus spake the Columbia Encyclopedia: "Philosophy differs from science in that both the natural and the social sciences base their theories wholly on established fact, whereas philosophy also covers areas of inquiry where no facts as such are available." Wholly?? "Facts as such"?? This is amateurism worthy of, well, Wikipedia. I can't take it seriously, and so severely doubt Neurophysic's faith that it was written by a scholar in philosophy (or science). Lancaster, I do not deny there is a difference. However, the difference is a muddy and contentious one, and so need not darken the door of this poor article. Philosophy differs from cheese, but there is no need to say all the things philosophy differs from, let alone in the lede. And invoking the atrociously ham-fisted Columbia Encyclopedia as a reliable source is a joke. 271828182 (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Obviously the discussion arises from the fact that any definition of philosophy will tend to contains elements which make it look similar to a definition of science?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

@ 271828182, what you are arguing is besides the point. Columbia does not become an unreliable source only because an editor disagrees with its content. The reason science should be treated differently from cheese is because, as I mentioned, it is a comparison many readers would find relevant (unlike cheese) and because, as you mentioned, the comparison is “muddy and contentious” (once again, unlike cheese). As I mentioned, this “goes someway to explain” the issue because being contentious and muddy was never a reason to not mention material and even if the article is poor, not mentioning relevant issues does not improve it. Neurophysics (talk) 14:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not believe this is a sourcing issue, except in terms of WP:DUE weight. It is basically a wording decision. It is easy to find sources on this, and indeed we all agree that the sources distinguish science and philosophy, but just because something appears in an acceptable source does not mean we have to use it. I do think that if we must put words in about this then 271828182's concern is a reasonable one: we must not make the distinction between the two things more sharp than consensus would accept, even if we can find sources that do. The first sentences should be super neutral an very general. They should not say anything which is debatable.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree and it is fair that the first sentence should not state something of debate. However, for this proposed second sentence, can other sources be found that shows that Columbia’s distinction is “sharp”? And just to note, this sentence says ‘sometimes’. This makes it a true sentence and does not state it as if it is universally accepted. Neurophysics (talk) 15:47, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

am still waiting. Neurophysics (talk) 11:52, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Busy, sorry. Weaseling with a "sometimes" can justify inserting any controversial, POV claim for which you can find at one source. The Columbia is quite sharp -- just read it. 271828182 (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

It is possible that POV can be abused with "sometimes" but it does not seem to be the case here. Neurophysics (talk) 15:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with 271828182 on the Columbia definition. The Oxford companion says that most definitions of philosophy are fairly controversial in part because of the various historical changes as to what is included or not. It endorse the simple "Philosophy is thinking about thinking". It also provides a more detailed one which it says is uncontroversially comprehensive namely "..philosophy is rationally critical thinking, or a more or less systematic kind about the general nature of the world (metaphysics or theory of existence), the justification of belief (epistemology and theory of knowledge), and the conduct of life (ethics or theory of value)." That is closer to the last agreement we made and is not a comical trivialisation of both science and philosophy. --Snowded ^TALK 16:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The point about the historical changes in the meaning and (effective) domain of philosophy is important. There was a time when virtually anyone doing physics would have been labeled a philosopher but that field has long since branched out on its own, leaving philosophers to discuss what physics is, how it should be done, what can be known by its methods, etc., but they are not typically doing physics per se. The current lede, and the longer quote above, both give a reader some basic notion of what a 21st century philosopher might spend his or her working days doing. The flowery definitions are amusing and pleasing to those with some idea what philosophy is but vacuous for the rest. For better or worse, a list of the major areas (in some format) is desirable. JJL (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

So maybe use the above definition, then expand the lede with the historical development, the split with the continental tradition and parallel developments outside of the west and interactions between?--Snowded ^TALK 08:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

That works for me, as does leaving it as it is or Rick Norwood's generally similar suggestion below. What I don't want is a witty quote that makes sense only to those who are already in the know. JJL (talk) 15:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

My vote is for Neurophysics's suggestion, which seems the least controversial: "Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language." In short, let's leave the article as it is, unless something clearly better comes along. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Then I am confused, I thought Neurophysics was going for the Columbia one --Snowded ^TALK 15:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going back to his post of 12:06, 22 November 2011, where he says that that should at least be the second sentence of the article. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

So that is not leaving things as they are is it? And it leaves open including ".. are sometimes defined as those where factual certainties are not easily established by scientific or other means" which is plain wrong --Snowded ^TALK 16:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)--Snowded ^TALK 16:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was only commenting on the first sentence of the lead. I agree that the second sentence of the lead is wrong, and will open another thread below for that discussion. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry you all feel that way about the proposed sentence. I guess the consensus is clear now. Neurophysics (talk) 06:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Fun fact

Did you know if you click the first link in any Wikipedia article, and click the first links after that, eventually you will always end up on this page? 204.184.214.55 (talk) 17:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

This actually is an interesting observation and it makes sense. When you state that "X is a type of Y," what you are saying is that Y is an abstraction of X. If you keep clicking thereby taking this process to its logical conclusion, you will inevitably end up in the philosophy department and therefore to the philosophy article. Greg Bard (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It would be fun if true.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't expect that it is universally true, but it should be, and it is a good indication of appropriate linking.Greg Bard (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Er...yeah, what he said. ^^^ 204.184.214.55 (talk) 17:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't work on "language" - anon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.100.247 (talk) 01:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

False. Mathematics doesn't lead here. Nor do many things that one would expect. Not even logic does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.195.162 (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Quite right. Most of the time they do lead back here because most articles start with "In blah, <article names> is..." and blah is the more general field. You are quite right that mathmatics is caught in it's own loop:

Mathmatics, quantity, property, logic, principles, law, system, elements, mathmatics

Still a fun fact that "most" end up back here. Cavebear42 (talk) 13:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

any sort of disproof of the "all roads lead to philosophy" theory are outdated. I just checked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.6.85 (talk) 21:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It still seems to be holding 68.38.133.115 (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Just a note, the original claim is that the first link that is neither italicized nor with within parenthesis is the one to followed. This drastically opens up the pathways to glorious inevitable philosophy. 216.221.94.198 (talk) 15:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There are many loops that won't get you anywhere near philosophy. Jojalozzo 18:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You'll need to back that up; I haven't been able to disprove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.28.133.40 (talk) 23:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The Count of Monte Cristo leads directly to the author's page which leads directly to The Count of Monte Cristo. My friends and I were stunned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.37.155.11 (talk) 05:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC) Has to be the first non-italicized link outside parentheses. Tested it recently, starting variously with "Papal States" (which took me through Mathematics), "Hanuman", and "SKS". All of them worked. Also, XKCD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.80.230 (talk) 20:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Mathematics leads nearly directly here, if you follow the 'non-italicized, outside of paranthesis' rule. I haven't found an article that doesn't lead here, following the rule. Ericloewe (talk) 22:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Any paths that don't lead to Philosophy were deliberately manipulated to spite the xkcd strip on the subject. 216.150.131.207 (talk) 14:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Structuralism and Post-structuralism

"Structuralists believed they could analyze systems from an external, objective standing, for example, but the poststructuralists argued that this is incorrect, that one cannot transcend structures and thus analysis is itself determined by what it examines, while the distinction between the signifier and signified was treated as crystalline by structuralists, poststructuralists asserted that every attempt to grasp the signified results in more signifiers, so meaning is always in a state of being deferred, making an ultimate interpretation impossible."

This paragraph is full of incoherent, nonsensical mumbo jumbo. It needs to be simplified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.227.148 (talk • contribs) 2011-11-18T20:55:06

It's neither incoherent nor nonsensical. It is, however, filled with specialist language meaningful only to those who already know the subject to some degree, or to which meaning can be inferred by people familiar with similar theories in other disciplines. Perhaps it can be clarified, use of technical language is always a difficult question. SamBC(talk) 12:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Format

It is a weight issue that one sentence is given to logic while other less significant topics are given whole paragraphs. Also, right now the moral and political philosophy has a whole section for itself. To address both, can we have one section called branches and have as subsections things like logic, aesthetics and move moral and political philosophy here since there is no particular reason to section off this one branch. Neurophysics (talk) 15:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The subsections in the “Main theories” section, realism and nominalism, rationalism and empiricism, and skepticism, would be better if incorporated into other sections. There is little to define what makes a theory “main” and there are a lot of theories out there. For the remaining subsections like pragmatism and the analytic tradition, etc, which cover philosophy more broadly, we could change the title to something like “Major schools” or “Major traditions” instead. Neurophysics (talk) 16:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

inconsistency between articles

in the article Philosophy right here, it states that the re are four main branches of study called metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and logic. however, in the Epistemology article, near the bottom of the introduction it says "Epistemology (how we know things) is combined with ontology (what things exist) to constitute the branch of philosophy known as metaphysics. The other three branches of philosophy are ethics (which attempts to understand and prescribe conduct), politics (which attempts to describe how we should interact with one another), and aesthetics (which discusses questions of beauty and taste)."

this one implies that the four main branches of study are called metaphysics, ethics, politics, and aesthetics.

are these two articles contradicting each other? Ghostwork (talk) 04:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed most of that paragraph, which was unsourced, served no role in introducing the subject of the article, and is dubious besides. Thanks for flagging that. 271828182 (talk) 16:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The second sentence of the lead.

"These topics are sometimes defined as those where factual certainties are not easily established by scientific or other means.[3]"

This sentence is not in any way supported by the reference given, and should be removed. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. The sentence has been cut. It should never have been added, as it was (1) superfluous, (2) implied a distinction sharper than can be justified, and (3) was poorly sourced. (1) The existing lede adequately covers the difference between philosophy and the sciences by implication: "Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument." The sciences do not study general and fundamental problems (especially those listed), and the omission of experiment from the second sentence draws the line as easily as we need. (2) The distinction between science and philosophy is not, as the Columbia source essentially suggests, that science deals in facts and philosophy doesn't. This draws upon a concept of "fact" which is extremely unclear and is baldfaced false about "science", which deals in theories and models all the time. (3) The Columbia article is anonymously written, and written for a general encyclopedia. That is not the level of reliable sourcing Wikipedia policy prefers. 271828182 (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Links in lead

The link for existence in the lead should really go to existence. Only makes sense, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Butler12333 (talk • contribs) 16:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

An RM of interest: the computer game called "Eidos"

Editors may be interested in this requested move. Noetica^Tea? 22:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Branches

Just for the record, I believe my opposition should have to bring this up on the talk page as explained. But, let’s stay civil. The lead issue argument is understandable, but this is pushing it little too far. A previous statement in that section similarly read, "In addition, a range of disciplines have emerged to address areas that historically were the subjects of philosophy. These include anthropology, psychology, and physics." I did not think it was a matter of controversy that other fields were considered part of philosophy, as the sources said. Why are you so determined to whitewash this from the article? Neurophysics (talk) 16:52, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to use the talk page rather than editing the article directly using a source that was not fully accepted by other editors. It not as simple as you edit implies. Anthropology and biology for example have a massive overlap and that includes aspects of psychology which are starting to fuse again with Philosophy of Mind and Neuro-science. Including some reference to the history, in that section is appropriate. I'm not sure it is in branches however. Whatever, given that you previous changes were contested you should really use the talk page to propose changes first --Snowded ^TALK 05:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

"Whitewashing" is a loaded term. The two sentences you added are (1) vaguely and clumsily written, and (2) poorly sourced. E.g., the first sentence claims that "the field covered by philosophy has decreased over time". But that is (1) a spatialization or quantification that is too vague to understand as being straightforwardly verifiable, and (2) is not at all supported by the reference, which talks about natural philosophy not being the same as the current usage of "philosophy", and makes no reference to a decrease in the range of philosophy. Saying that natural philosophy included a lot of what we call science and also a lot of other things carries no implication about philosophy in general. The second sentence refers generally to the Columbia Encyclopedia entry, which, as I've pointed out above, is not a reliable source -- it is not a specialist secondary source (such as an encyclopedia of philosophy, by philosophers -- unlike the sources in the lede, e.g.), we have no indication of who wrote it, or the author's (authors' [?]) expertise in philosophy. It is essentially a link to answers.com, precisely the sort of sourcing that gives Wikipedia a bad name. It also makes an uncritical appeal to a notion of "fact" that is somehow anterior to, or perhaps opposed to, philosophy, which is extremely dubious and a POV violation (as I explained before). So the article is better off without those edits. As for the general claim that other disciplines have emerged to occupy formerly philosophical topics: (1) this is not an article about the emergence of anthropology, or psychology, or physics (and why those three in particular anyway?), so the comment is extraneous. (2) It is not at all clear how philosophy, once upon a time, included physics. Was Anaxagoras doing the same thing as Newton? As Dirac? In what sense? And did these sciences "emerge" from philosophy, or from other sciences, or from common sense observation? Fechner and Helmholtz, e.g., did not seek to found psychology out of philosophy -- their models and methods were explicitly derived from physics. I know professors and philosophers sometimes speak of sciences "emerging" or spinning off or maturing from philosophy (J.L. Austin says something like this somewhere). But this notion has always seemed rather facile and short on detailed historical genealogy. In any event, the edits and sources given don't cut it. 271828182 (talk) 09:25, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

This is irrelevant. Again, Columbia does not become unreliable because you disagree with it about the notion of “fact” or whatever. The other source that says what is now “science” was a part of philosophy is from Stanford, [4]. Another editor can add in what the sources say if the issue is me adding my slants. Also, can we get some more opinions here, I am sure someone else notices this is a little weird. Neurophysics (talk) 08:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please use indenting it makes things easier to follow. We have discussed the nature of the Columbia source before, and the same point is not repeated in other edited encyclopaedias etc. You are also missing the point about the fact that some of this is coming back together at the moment. The position you are adopting is one held by philosophers, but it is not a consensus opinion so we need to be careful about how we use it, and where it is used if at all. I think some note in the History section has value, but only there. --Snowded ^TALK 16:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's controversial to say that at an early stage in Greece many thinkers on many subjects would've been grouped together under a single heading that would effectively mean, if not literally be, philosopher, but it gets murkier when you look at any particular case. Some areas grew out of philosophy and others were pulled out to merge with other well-formed ideas and become a new discipline, and it greatly oversimplifies the matter to view them as having evolved soley from philosophy. Nonetheless I have a fair amount of sympathy for your viewpoint but would like to see any such statement very well-sourced--we risk the navel-gazing effect of thinking the field of interest to us here, philosophy, is so very special. It undeniably is, but quality sources provide a check on aggrandizement. Is there a physics/psych./anthro. text that describes its field as being purely an offshoot of phil., at least at the origin? I suspect they may take a broader view. I also wonder if natural philosophy may have acquired early on a meaning like science and if it's too simple to say natural phil. is (originally) a subset of phil. rather than a case of a similar term being used. (I honestly don't know.) Where are the strong secondary sources saying physics, e.g., grew (only) out pf phil.? JJL (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Neurophysics, you seem to have missed what I actually said. Your edit is not supported by what the SEP source says. Your edit says, essentially, that philosophy has shrunk as new sciences have emerged from it. But the SEP article says "Fully understanding Newton means avoiding anachronistically substituting our conception of philosophy in the twenty-first century for what the early moderns called 'natural philosophy'. To be sure, the latter includes much that we now call 'science', and yet it clearly includes much else besides." As I said, this says nothing about philosophy shrinking, or physics emerging out of philosophy. It merely notes, rather like an Euler diagram, that "natural philosophy" is not the same as "philosophy" or "science". 271828182 (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Its me again. I cannot seem to convince anybody but if I only say “natural philosophy used to be considered a branch of philosophy” would you then not take it down? Neurophysics (talk) 06:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Big problem ?!

To much a intelligent people hast problem has being wise . (my opinion, I am not bookworm) This is a big problem in today world .

sry my bad english :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luckres (talk • contribs) 23:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The definition of Metaphysics is hard to understand

The section on Metaphysics opens with "Metaphysics is the study of of reality, such as those including existence, the relationship between mind and body, objects and their properties, events and causation."

This sentence is ungrammatical (...of of...), and unclear: I do not understand what "those" in "such as those including existence" is referring to.

Jalanb (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I assume the text here was corrupted by inattentive editors. I have offered a good-enough fix; thanks for calling attention to this. 271828182 (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Main Branches - Political Philosophy

Political philosophy (politics) ought to be reported as a main branch. Currently section 2.4 is titled: Moral and political philosophy (with main article links for both), the lede sentence for the branches section doesn't mention politics, and politics is absent from the template listing of branches.

I looked through the talk page revisions of the article for when the change was made in the article and found no discussion of this demotion within the article. Is it really the intention to suggest to encyclopedia readers that in summary, political philosophy is not a *main* branch? --Karbinski (talk) 22:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Moral and political philosophy are very inter-twined, but they are certainly also two distinct terms, so either way is good for me.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Thomas Hobbes (portrait).jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Thomas Hobbes (portrait).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Thomas Hobbes (portrait).jpg) This is (a) Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 20:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Strange...

No matter which article you go to, for each one, if you click on the first link that is not in italics, parentheses, quotation marks, or a template, it always will eventually lead to a loop between this page and Ontology. Charles has spoken! 20:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Citation Needed

There is a citation needed in subsection History > 5th-16th Centuries > Europe > Medieval for

the "golden age" of the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries in the Latin West

I can't find a source for this 'golden age'. Does anybody know of a source for this? Matt (talk) 00:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Philosophy C Rating

Can anybody tell me the rationale behind the WikiProject Philosophy rating of this article as C-class? I don't mean to imply that it's not C-class, but I saw that it was previously B-class and would like some clarification of what are currently the biggest problems with this article without going through a whole review or request for comment process. Is there somewhere I can find a discussion or rationale for this article's current rating? Thanks in advance, Matt (talk) 01:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry I cannot answer that immediate question, perhaps someone else can help us. Here is some background though HTH. This article was the Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy collaboration of the month for December 2005, so there's been quitea a lot of work and discussion at this page. The article, obviously, is of A class importance. And experts are always gratefully welcomed to go over the page. I have had the page watch-listed over the years, so I will give my quick summary of the state of play, which others may well refine or correct.

There are no major problems with the Philosophy article. The lead is a bit spartan, but it has been subjected to much discussion and is well-thought, referenced and on plenty of watchlists. Beyond that, I would guess now that the article is in a phase of possible growth, since there are always areas that need expanding. Therefore, the article maintains a very presentable picture, but it is not, and never will be finished, that's Wikipedia. Perhaps from time to time one of our images is deleted at Commons, and so that has to be addressed.

Off the top of my head, I see no reason that the article could not meet B-class criteria, or else it is already of such a standard, maybe. No articles are perfect, this one is stable, and as comprehensive as it has got to be now, lots of effort has been put in, with lots of eyes on it. May I suggest, if it needs further follow-up, contacting the classifiers, or whatever, at wikiProject Philosophy, per the Info boxes at the top of this talk page, about the immediate question. Just my opinions here, though I am a long-term page watcher, I could well be wrong but I do HTH NewbyG ( talk) 03:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)