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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 88.64.182.125 (talk) at 17:42, 24 April 2012 (→‎propaganda). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Origins

We should write more about what different schoolars belive are the ancestors of the Kurds since there are so many different theories. There are many speculations, for example Minorsky claims the Medes while Izady claims both the Medes and the Hurrians. We should divide the article in many subgroups, each representing a schoolars view on the subject.

The Gutis however, haven't got so much space in this article. The Guti language was different from the Hurrian, or so it seems by looking at the names of the Kings, this means they weren't the same people, as Izady claims (?).

I think that the Hurrians were the ancestors of the modern Chechans/Georgians (since they're connected linguistically), that invaded Middle East from Caucasus (according to Britannica) and created a kingdom and ruled over the people living there, maybe even mixing somewhat with them. It's not something unsuall that a kingdom or an empire have more than one ethnicties, this is in fact very common. And Kurdistan has seen this kind of rule many times through history, being a part of many kingdoms/empires, so why not one more time?

This would explain for example the "disappearing" of the Hurrians. If they simply were defeated, and new rulers took their power, then they didn't disappear, they just lost the power of their empire to annother people.

Anyways, we Kurds can't claim Hurrians to be our ancestors just so we can be proud of this and that. We must follow the truth, and who ever our ancestors were we must accept them, even if we aren't the native people of Middle East / Kurdistan. But then again I'm not sure of this, culturally, the Kurds doesn't seem to have anything in common with the Hurrians, and we already know that there is no linguistic connection. Even if we lost our old language, then why can't we find a single word in our vocaboulary that traces back to Hurrian? Everytime a people has brought upon annother people their own language, it has adopted many of the old words. And religously the Kurds don't seem to have anything in common with the Hurrians. Doesn't make any sense then that some Kurds claim them to be our ancestors. --Diyairaniyanim (talk) 16:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably right about the Hurrians, but I've restored the text you deleted. The sources use meet our criteria at WP:RS. If someone who meets these criteria says they are outdated, we can add that as well. It does look as though you agree with that so I'm surprised you deleted anything rather than add other opinions. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite here presented (partly ideological) controversies on Kurds' origin, the modern impartial and abundant biochemic-genomical comparisons in last years on Kurdish populations in S.E. Turkey, West Iran and North Iraq prove quite inverse results from above 'historical' prejudices (despite so-called "mainstream" suggested). Briefly: Turkish Kurds are almost bio-physically the hoary local aborigines descending directly at least 5,000 years ago from the local prehistoric people named Kardu in Sumerian and Kardariki in Akkadian, but Iranian Kurds are only partly of regional proto-historic descendance, while the Iraquian Kurds are mostly a newer immigrant mixture with few local genomic ancestors. These newer data are real an objective (I am independent European scientist without any interests nor links to Kurds or their neighbors). Therefore evidently, this chapter on the origin of Kurds must be modernized, i.e. radically transformed (or otherwise moved). External Controller, 12:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.214.137 (talk)

Edit request on 22 February 2012

The page says "According to the CIA World Factbook, Kurds comprise 20% of the population in Turkey," I just looked on the CIA World Factbook and it says 18% (see https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html) thanks stoop (talk) 20:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thanks for improving Wikipedia! mabdul 00:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Population numbers

If no one objects in the coming days I'll update the numbers as most of them seem to be off. For example it says that the population in Turkey is between 14 and 19.5 million whereas both sources says it's at least 19 million so I don't know where the 14 million comes from. Also a lot of the sources have been updated and don't reflect the number mentioned in this article. ~ Zirguezi 11:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That would be great. We have a problem with editors, mainly IPs, coming along and changing figures, often changing sourced figures, with no explanation. Sometimes it's just plain number vandalism, sometimes it seems to be pov. Dougweller (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kurdish settlement map

The map based on Encyclopædia Britannica-Kurd. It's reliable source, so i don't understand the mean of this edit [2]. Kurdo777 deleted map, and he has written "no reliable source has been provided for this map, it seems like OR"!!!--Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 05:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's a copy rights violation. You can't just copy/paste maps from other sources and upload them into Wikipedia without permission as your own work. Kurdo777 (talk) 07:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And besides being a copyvio, the map is outdated and questionable. It somehow does not include Urmia, which is one of the largest Kurdish-inhabited cities, or any other city in West Azerbaijan for that matter, which is home to millions of Kurds. It contradicts academic sources in that sense. Kurdo777 (talk) 08:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not copy-past. It's my own work based on reliable source.))) About Urmia and West Azerbaijan province, reliable sources are shown the different opinion that is different with your idea. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The map is indeed reliable and sourced which means it's not a copyvio. However I think we have a lot of better maps at Atlas of Kurdistan that we can use that show the Kurdish inhabited areas a lot better ~ Zirguezi 09:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your map is not better map because it have duplication information. The britannica is reliable sourse for this aim. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most maps here are innacurate in that they completely 'forget' about the Kurdish inhabited areas in Northwestern Syria (Afrin, Ayn-al Arab). This is an accurate map of the ethnic/religious groups in Syria (Kurds=red encircled areas): http://www.lefigaro.fr/assets/infographie/110609-syrie-religion.jpg .
In that sense, even though still not precise, this seems to be the best map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Kurden.jpg. Znertu (talk) 18:33, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are many amps in Atlas of Kurdistan that make based on one source [3] that repeated in several ways [4]. Britannica's map is another map for this aim. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Znerto and Kurdo77. I think File:Kurden.jpg is the best map. It shows the Syrian, Iranian and Caucasus regions the best and it includes terrain and mayor cities.
@Ebrahimi-amir, Please keep in mind that Britannica is, just like Wikipedia, an encyclopedia with it's own sources. Saying that one file is better than an other just because one is from Britannica is ridiculous. The other maps are according to you based on one source which is from a university in Texas which makes it a reliable source. ~ Zirguezi 16:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are two map for on subject. It is not necessary to delete one of them , and it is better that both of them to exist in article. I think the map of university in Texas duplication the Kurdish people settlement. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 16:20, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't see the need to do so but fine I guess more sources equal better a better article ~ Zirguezi 21:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This edit is vandalism. You deleted the map with reliable source without any legal reason. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 19:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't actually. I gave you a perfectly good reason. I suggest you go back and look it up. Also I removed the map because a map of Iranian peoples in Iran, while related, is in my opinion not very important because this is an article about Kurdish people. I don't know if you know how Wikipedia is run but I suggest you look at WP:CON. We've reached a consensus here and you'll have to learn to respect that even if the outcome isn't what you wanted. ~ Zirguezi 21:10, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Please explain that why you removed the map that have reliable source?--Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 07:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What I did was remove this map because I don't think its very important. I then added this map and moved this down a few sections because of the consensus we reached above. ~ Zirguezi 09:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But i think, it is very important WP:FIVE,WP:POV,WP:RS. --Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 09:53, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There many sources that shown this map (and other maps that make based on) have duplication information about West Azerbaijan province. It is better that the map is removed from the paper.

--Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 06:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think when there is severe contradiction in maps , the self published maps should not be used in the article . As some elements are extracted from the source [5] and are combined with [6] . That is not reliable to do that . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • widths="200px"
  • Great Kurdistan; Kurdish nationalists claim
    Great Kurdistan; Kurdish nationalists claim
  • Iran Ethnic based on Dr.Hafeznia work
    Iran Ethnic based on Dr.Hafeznia work
The maps [7]& [8]&[9] and etc are similar to great Kurdistan map, and there have duplication information WP:Fringe.--Ebrahimi-amir (talk) 20:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Kurds008.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Iranian people.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Academic source

In general, the most reliable sources are: peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses;

Please do not remove academic sources. Robert D. Biggs is a history professor at University of Chicago and the book itself is published by a university press. Iranic (talk) 06:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but exactly what does he say? The link [10]is just a snippet and it is clear that there is a caveat that might be relavant and thus we would need to add. Anyone adding something needs to have read more of the source than just a snippet. Unless we can find out what the caveat is and decide if it needs to be added, I don't think this source belongs here. On a minor point, citations should provide page numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 07:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He says: "ethnically the Kurds are an Iranian people" so it really doesn't matter what he said after that. We have a clear sentence and quoted his exact words. Iranic (talk) 07:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it matters. I've taken this to WP:RSN#Can we use a Google books snippet as a source when a caveat is visible?. Using snippets like this is bad research. Dougweller (talk) 09:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Although I am not agree but I've removed itIranic (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We need to qualify the statement that they are an Iranian people

The discussion so far at WP:RSN confirms my concerns about the snipped, but another issue has arisen - what does 'Iranian people' mean and does this need qualifying in any way. The Kurdish National Movement: Its Origins and Development, By Wadie Jwaideh says "they are by no means a purely Iranian people." Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia, By John A. Shoup says "an Iranian people by language, the Kurdish people are ethnically diverse due to intermarriage with other ethnic groups..." And Historical dictionary of Iraq By Edmund Ghareeb, Beth Dougherty discusses other possible origins concluding they are of mixed origins. Dougweller (talk) 10:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get back to you as soon as I find a copy of that book but for now The Encyclopedia of Islam is a reliable source. ethnic identity is based on language not marriage or anything else. Iranic (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that's not true as one of my sources says, but even if it were, we'd have to make it clear in the article. Dougweller (talk) 05:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian peoples or Iranic peoples is no different of a theory than Germanic peoples or Slavic peoples or Turkic peoples... it is a ethno-linguistic term/grouping used by academics. By the most common academic definition, Kurds are classified as an Iranic people, just as Azeris are classified as a Turkic people, and Bulgarians are classified as a Slavic people. (despite their mixed genetic origins, cultural traits, intermarriages etc, which in the case of Azeris, is far more complex than the Kurds) See here:

  • R.N Frye, "IRAN v. PEOPLES OF IRAN" in Encycloapedia Iranica. "In the following discussion of “Iranian peoples,” the term “Iranian” may be understood in two ways. It is, first of all, a linguistic classification, intended to designate any society which inherited or adopted, and transmitted, an Iranian language. The set of Iranian-speaking peoples is thus considered a kind of unity, in spite of their distinct lineage identities plus all the factors which may have further differentiated any one group’s sense of self."

Kurds fiting this category is put here:

  • Bois, Th.; Minorsky, V.; Bois, Th.; Bois, Th.; MacKenzie, D.N.; Bois, Th. "Kurds, Kurdistan." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2009. Brill Online. <http://www.brillonline.nl/subscriber/entry?entry=islam_COM-0544> Excerpt 1:"The Kurds, an Iranian people of the Near East, live at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey. Excerpt 2:"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθα̑ίται [= al-Ḵh̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of Ḵh̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin). " Excerpt 4: "In the 20th century, the existence of an Iranian non-Kurdish element among the Kurds has been definitely established (the Gūrān-Zāzā group)."
  • G. Asatrian, Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds, Iran and the Caucasus, Vol.13, pp.1-58, 2009: "The ancient history of the Kurds, as in case of many other Iranian ethnic groups (Baluchis, etc.), can be reconstructed but in a very tentative and abstract form"
  • Michael G. Morony, "Iraq After the Muslim Conquest", Gorgias Press LLC, 2005. pg 265: "Kurds were only small ethnic group native to Iraq. As with the Persians, their presence along the northeastern edge of Iraq was merely an extension of their presence in Western Iran. All of the non-Persian, tribal, pastoral, Iranian groups in the foothills and the mountains of the Zagros range along the eastern fringes of Iraq were called Kurd at that time
  • E. J. van Donzel, "Islamic desk reference ", BRILL, 1994. ISBN-9004097384. pg 222: "Kurds/Kurdistan: the Kurds are an Iranian people who live mainly at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey, Shi'i Iran Arab Sunni Iraq and North Syria and the former Soviet Transcaucasia. Several dynasties, such as the Marwanids of Diyarbakir, the Ayyubids, the Shaddadis and possibly the Safawids, as well as prominent personalities, were of Kurdish origin
  • RUSSELL, JR 1990 « Pre-Christian Armenian Religion*, dans Aufstieg und Nieder- gang der Romischen Welt, II, 18.4, p. 2679-2692, Berlin-New York, 1990., pg 2691: "A study of the pre-Islamic religion of the Kurds, an Iranian people who inhabited southern parts of Armenia from ancient times to present, has yet to be written"[11]
  • John Limbert, The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran, Iranian Studies, Vol.1, No.2, Spring 1968, pp.41-51. p.41: "In these last areas, the historic road from Baghdad to Hamadan and beyond divides the Kurds from their Iranian cousins, the Lurs." Kurdo777 (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you indeed for these valuable sources. I'm still waiting for my copy of 'Discoveries' to arrive.Iranic (talk) 02:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't have time to cite them one by one in the article yesterday. I see that you've already done that, so thanks for that. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

kurds are not iranic !

why don't you let us to show our own sources ?? our genetic is quite different im a kurdish guy from iran & im wondering why do you keep trying to assimilate our people i never liked your language when i was at school you were making us to read & exam your stupid poems & books &.... is it fair?? i mean we are not persian & we never gone be & you never gone assimilate us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.100.177.9 (talk) 07:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a place to conduct your political campaigns, however firmly believed and however valid. Instead of making assertions please cite sources. Wikipedia does not care about truth, it only cares about verifiable facts. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

propaganda

it says that kurds are estimated 30 to 38 million, but that is pankurdism. for example they are big difference between Sorani and Kurmanji and which using different scripts. why you don't put then Turks, Gagauz, Meskhetian Turks, Azerbaijani, Turkmens and Turkish Cypriot together and call them "Turkish people"? mh.. yea just wondering. the problem is the kurdish militant ideology which postulates a pan-kurdic identity marred by kurdish nationalism. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers seem to have what we call reliable sources, see WP:RS. If you have different numbers with resources that are at least reliable, bring them here. Dougweller (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

you are actually talking about kurdic people, which is a collection of ethnic groups like Sorani, Kurmanji and Kermashani. they are speaking different languages and they are just connected particularly by belonging to the same language family. but the discussion of the question of ethnic kurdish groups has been marred by kurdish nationalism which postulates a pan-kurdic identity. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 17:42, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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