Talk:Inselberg

Merge

I think that this article should be merged with inselberg, with the exception of the origin of the name, the material covered is nearly identical --Leonsimms 18:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Um...There's a redirect from Inselberg to Monadnock. --YixilTesiphon ^{Say hello} Consider my Wikiproject idea 16:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Because the title of the page is monadnock, I presumed this would be the preferred term on English WP, and changed "inselberg" to "monadnock" where the former was being used as a generic term. "Examples of monadnocks" being immediately followed by "Notable inselbergs include..." was rather jarring. --Jnik 19:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Tepuis

Are Tepuis a type of Monadnock? If so, should the be added to the list? --NoahElhardt 02:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

And is the Devils Tower in Wyoming? Dricherby (talk) 10:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

article name - requested move

As the US is the only country to refer to these formations as monadnocks, with inselbergs being more widely used I think this article should be moved to the title "Inselberg" and the terminology changed accordingly. --Brideshead_{(leave a message)} 22:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have to agree that it should be titled "inselberg" rather than "monadnock". Inselberg is the more international term, to put this in perspective there are over 600 scientific articles with the word inselberg vs. 200 with monadnock (number estimate from Google scholar advance search). --orangesquid —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC).

I've studied in the US, and never heard of Modanock... I was taught the term Inselburg, recently I've learned of another term bornhardt which apparently has the same meaning.132.160.43.101 (talk) 22:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I am not a geologist, but I have heard of monadnock; although I can see why Inselberg would mean the same thing, I am unfamiliar with it. We are edited for lay readers and not for specialists; and English names should be preferred to German ones. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Approve.A bit of background...I study the flora of granite outcrops, and I acknowledge there are a variety of ways to name this landform, but I feel strongly that the article title should be "inselberg". This is the most common term used in science, geology, ecology, and international (not just German) literature. Prior to checking out the wikipedia article, i had never heard the term "monadnock" before (maybe it is more of an Eastern US word). If you want to get into the etymology of naming, "inselberg" (German origin) has more in common with the English language than "monadnock" (Abnacki origin).Orangesquid (talk) 10:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your useful and moderate comments. On one point only: let's avoid the etymological test. To pick extremes, teak is an English word; dryhten isn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. I am still opting for Inselberg though because that is the term that I most commonly use when looking for, writing about, or discussing this kind of land form (I admit occasionally geek out and talk about rocks with friends). Orangesquid (talk) 20:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Is it possible that "monadnock" refers exclusively to larger structures? Things like Murphy's Haystacks, South Australia are referred to as "inselbergs", but I couldn't find any instances of something on that scale being referred to as a monadnock. 210.161.33.186 (talk) 01:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Monadnock is clearly the more common use per the google test.

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,010,000 for Monadnock

Results 1 - 10 of about 125,000 for Inselberg

Also, it's not clear that the two terms refer to the same concept. Perhaps two separate articles is the solution here, each referring to the other. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment I would have to say that most of the Monadnock's in Google are about Mount Monadnock, based on the few that I checked, and not about the type of structure. Of the first 100 hits 96 appeared to be related to the Mount Monadnock region, one was an architect named Monadnock in the Netherlands, one was about the Monadnock Building in SF, one was a dictionary definition that said see inselberg, and only this article was about the type of structure. 199.125.109.59 (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Compelling, but I don't see it.

Results 1 - 10 of about 982,000 for monadnock

Results 1 - 10 of about 833,000 for Monadnock -"Mount Monadnock"

Results 1 - 10 of about 752,000 for Monadnock -hike

Excluding hits on Mount Monadnock or "hike" does not make a big difference.

Results 1 - 10 of about 24,000 for monadnock +formation

Results 1 - 10 of about 11,900 for inselberg +formation

Monadnock wins with formation, 2:1.

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,800 for inselberg +rock

Results 1 - 10 of about 173,000 for monadnock +rock

Monadnock wins with rock, 10:1.

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,220 for inselberg +geology

Results 1 - 10 of about 19,700 for Monadnock +geology

Monadnock wins with geology, over 2:1.

Results 1 - 10 of about 3,970 for Monadnock +geologist

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,060 for Inselberg +geologist

Monadnock wins with geologist, 4:1.

I'm willing to change my mind on this, but I need to see some evidence. --Born2cycle (talk) 15:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment Interesting take on the "google test", but i still don't agree with the previous conclusion. If you repeat the same methods, but refine the search to peer reviewed articles within google scholar (filtered to remove monadnock or inselberg as author name, restricted to "biology, life science, and environmental science") you get very different results.

Inselberg wins, 3:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 250 for monadnock

Results 1 - 10 of about 201 for Monadnock -"Mount Monadnock"

Results 1 - 10 of about 624 for inselberg

Inselberg wins with formation, 4:1.

Results 1 - 10 of about 66 for monadnock +formation

Results 1 - 10 of about 256 for inselberg +formation

Inselberg wins with rock, 3:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 88 for monadnock +rock

Results 1 - 10 of about 277 for inselberg +rock

Inselberg wins with geology, 3:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 44 for Monadnock +geology

Results 1 - 10 of about 114 for inselberg +geology

Inselberg wins with species, 3:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 180 for Monadnock +species

Results 1 - 10 of about 512 for Inselberg +species

Inselberg wins with ecology, 5:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 87 for Monadnock +ecology

Results 1 - 10 of about 414 for Inselberg +ecology

Inselberg wins with biology, 4:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 72 for Monadnock +biology

Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for Inselberg +biology

Inselberg wins with biodiversity, 8:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 29 for Monadnock +biodiversity

Results 1 - 10 of about 244 for Inselberg +biodiversity

Inselberg wins with biogeography, 9:1

Results 1 - 10 of about 17 for Monadnock +biogeography

Results 1 - 10 of about 148 for Inselberg +biogeography

Conclusion: Use inselberg when talking about geology, biology, or ecology associated with this kind of land form, term applicable internationally for both temperate and tropical regions. Less commonly used as a name, more often used as a general description of rock form. Use monadnock when referring to a specific name of a place (Monadnock State Park) or region (in New Hampsire)only applicable within the temperate zone of eastern United States. Orangesquid (talk) 05:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• I thought that a monadnock was any isolated mountain on a peneplain, but an inselberg was a type of isolated mountain that tends to arise from desert-type erosion. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Note from WP:RM: I'm relisting this for further discussion on WP:RM. This doesn't seem to be finished yet. The discussion will be re-evaluated in five days time. Thank you.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 17:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

As a late-comer, I would still point out that a) The main US use (if monadnock indeed be the main use) must not be confused with the main overall English use, and that very few non-USanians would be likely to search with what appears to be a Native-American term. Even "Kopje" is likely to be more internationally popular. b) An argument above that English terms should be prefered above German, is entirely specious, because both terms are loan words foreign to the English language. In fact, "Inselberg" arguably has the better claim of being English through the close relation between German and English, the (I presume) earlier borrowing, and (as already stated) greater international use.

Generally, I feel that many USanians are in the unfortunate habit of equating correct English with "American", see US culture as the natural basis for the English WP, etc. This is a complete misunderstanding: The English WP is the English language WP, not the US national WP. 188.100.206.102 (talk) 13:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup, January 2008 (including comments about the controversy, above)

Several references here were url-code only (no other information provided) and fell on deadlinks; I removed these and some of the information they supposedly supported. I also removed the section on flora, as it pertained specifically to flora in Australia, not to inselbergs/monadnocks in general. Perhaps this material could be reintroduced in a more limited and less narrowly-aimed fashion. I also removed some information that was not supported by references, and left citation tags in front of others.

I proveded references that demonstrate the use of the term monadnock, although I have no problem with this article being called inselberg instead. One term is as good as another. I also added information showing subtle distinctions between the two terms. However, the general non-consenus among geologists indicated by the material and references provided should caution any absolute definition here in this article.

I don't object to the reintroduction of some of the material I cut out, but please do provide good references and do make sure that the material is germaine to the entire topic, i.e. it should not be phrased in such a way as to favor one geologic opinion over another.

Finally, I removed the long list of examples to List of inselbergs, (favoring the broader, non-USA specific term), per WP:NOT and I reworked the image formatting and over-clustering. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 02:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the interchangeability of the two terms, see this german-english engineering dictionary (electronic scan of print): here And here in this British geology text and here in the Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, and Related Terms published by the American Geological Institute--Pgagnon999 (talk) 02:20, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

And see here in this USDA glossary regarding the subtle distinction between the two that some geologic opinions ascribe to; and here by a geologist who considers the two to be interchangeable, page 7, second column: "There is a general homology between all (fluvially sculpted) landscapes. The differences between landforms of humid-temperate, semiarid, and arid environments are differences only of degree. Thus, for instance, monadnocks and inselbergs are homologous."--Pgagnon999 (talk) 02:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ayer's Rock and the Olgas

Surely two of the most impressive examples must be Ayer's rock or The Olgas in Australia. Could they be included or am I mistaken that they are not monadnocks?Brinerustle (talk) 18:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)