Talk:Linux Mint

LMDE

There should be a mention of LMDE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.183.144.29 (talk) 03:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Remastering

"Various programs (such as remastersys and Reconstructor) exist to produce customised remasters of Debian/Ubuntu and probably can be used to produce modified versions of Linux Mint Live CDs." Probably? I don't think the section should be there unless it is asserted that it can - not exactly encyclopedic as it is. Scatterkeir (talk) 01:17, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I concur. I do not doubt the editor's ability to remaster an iso but we need a source on this one. Mediator Scientiae (talk) 00:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe that this part should be removed completely. This page is about Linux Mint and not about remastering software.

Yes, remastering should be completely removed. This page is not closely related to remastering. Wei2912 (talk) 08:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Personal blog links

Both the recently linked "references" added by user 210.48.222.4 are just personal blogs, imho, and should be removed. They are both full of adverts, both start with the same text "The Mint Team is doing all the work ... all we need to do is install the final version of Mint-8 and have fun on it." and the blogs.iium.edu.my one links directly to the techviewz.org one. Both added by the same IP address in the last two days, and neither add too much information that isn't otherwise available from more notable sources. Thoughts, anyone? Thrapper (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Also note that the same IP has added links to the same blogs on other articles, including Linux (diff, diff), Nokia N900 (diff, diff) and Safari (diff) Thrapper (talk) 12:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Neither link seemed to add anything in my opinion, and not particularly related to the text from which they were referred, so I removed them. Thrapper (talk) 16:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, Thrapper. Good detective work. Mediator Scientiae (talk) 00:43, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Why the old pic?

Any reason for having that picture of version 2.2 there? I suppose it should be removed. --Stormwatch (talk) 04:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point, doesn't seem particularly relevant any more! :) Thrapper (talk) 16:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I did remove the pic but Clementlefebvre reverted my edit and put the picture back :( Thrapper (talk) 17:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that wasn't my intention, it must have been a side-effect of another reversion? Either way, feel free to remove it, 2.2 is quite old indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clementlefebvre (talk • contribs) 15:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to enter an edit war with you, Clementlefebvre. I already removed this 2.2 pic, and you reverted my edit. I already gave you the link to show you the changes you made with your edit (if you want the link again, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Linux_Mint&action=historysubmit&diff=330222783&oldid=330074993 ) so it should be easy for you to check what you changed and see whether any side-effects occurred or not. Thrapper (talk) 14:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said, "either way, feel free to remove it". -- Clem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.248.61 (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Removed. Let's keep ridiculous wiki politics out of this shall we? Old Marcus (talk) 12:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I tried to change the caption to reflect that that is the Cinnamon version of Linux Mint 13, but I got reverted. Can anyone do it for me? 69.122.206.175 (talk) 13:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It's already changed. :) Wei2912 (talk) 15:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Introduction

User:Honormuk, could you please stop editing the introduction to delete uncontroversial, encyclopedic information? --Andrensath (talk) 07:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm bringing improvements to the page by correcting mistakes. I'm also using the article about Ubuntu as a template for Linux Mint. I rephrased the first sentence to match the wording on the Ubuntu article. The deleted references are not directly related to the content. The sentence about the integrated codecs is not correct and so therefore should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Honormuk (talk • contribs) 11:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see what relevance the wording of Ubuntu (operating system) has to this article. Also, could you clarify exactly how the deleted references are 'not directly related to the content', and what is incorrect about the sentence about the integrated codecs? (As a side note, you can sign your edits to talk pages by inserting the tilde (~) character four times. Please do so, as this cuts down on the chances of edit conflicts.) --Andrensath (talk) 11:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll sign my comments. Honormuk (talk) 12:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The integrated codecs are not present in all editions of Linux Mint, it's incorrect to say so. Honormuk (talk) 12:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The Ubuntu article is better written than this one. I see it as an improvement to word things the way they're worded on the Ubuntu article. Honormuk (talk) 12:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The first ref points to the new features in Linux Mint 7... nothing to do with the introduction. The second ref points to a website called TechViewz.org where one can read a reproduction of the Linux Mint 8 release announcement... again, nothing to do with the introduction.

As a further note, it's nearly 23:30 here, and I'm going to bed. Please refrain from edits without consensus in my absence. --Andrensath (talk) 11:27, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Your absence is completely irrelevant. I hope we won't hear what you're having for breakfast when you get up... stop reverting changes over and over and if you're interested in this page, try to contribute to it instead. It's poorly written and it's missing a lot of information. If you've got time to spare around this article that's what you should be focused on. Honormuk (talk) 12:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

(Outdent because I can't sleep) I don't actually eat breakfast. Thank you for clarifying, however. I'm going to work up an introduction that mixes both your version and the one I have been reverting to per WP:BRD, and will insert a proposed version of that in a subsequent indentation for comment. --Andrensath (talk) 13:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's the proposed version. Please feel free to comment on it: <quote>Linux Mint is a personal computer operating system, based on (and compatible with) the Ubuntu distribution. It is recognized for being an user-friendly Linux distribution, particularly for users with no previous experience in Linux.

Linux Mint provides an up-to-date, stable operating system for the average user, with a strong focus on usability and ease of installation. It is available for download in the form of ISO images, which can be used to create Live CDs or Live USBs.</quote> --Andrensath (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it's good but it's step down from what we currently have. Let me explain. The current introduction is an adapted version of the introduction written for Ubuntu. The reader shouldn't be expected to know much about Linux so it's important to mention the licensing, the funding and general considerations about the operating system more than details such as the installation media (though this would deserve to be added as well, not only here but on both the Linux Mint and Ubuntu articles). I think the people who contributed this introduction to Ubuntu captured this very well. From a style point of view I think their introduction is slightly better, for the following reasons:

• They emphasize the fact that Ubuntu is an operating system more so than a GNU/Linux distribution. It's both of course, but they introduce the notion of distribution through Debian and later on in the article and that makes it easier to understand to most readers.
• They use the term "computer" which commonly refers to "PC" or "personal computer" (the latter being rarely used).
• In the proposed introduction "(and compatible with)" breaks the rhythm of the sentence and makes things harder to understand. Although it's an accurate and correct statement, the level of compatibility between the two systems is described in detail within the article itself and doesn't necessarily need to appear in the introduction. Linux Mint is something people use on their PC, that's the main aspect of it. Its compatibility with what it's based on is quite technical.
• In the proposed introduction there are a few repetitions on "user" and "distribution".

Honormuk (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the version currently used, there are only three changes I'd make, all minor: 'computer Operating system to 'computer operating system', 'stable operating system' to 'stable operating system', and 'many software packages' to 'many software packages'. What do you think? --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 14:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

All good points. "Operating systems" appears twice so it's not a problem linking to it in the second occurrence. Although "computer" commonly refers to PCs it's technically inaccurate so a link is welcome here. Finally, "software package" definitely needs a link, very few people are familiar with this concept.Honormuk (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

"Ubuntu" or "the Ubuntu (GNU/)Linux distribution"

When it comes to mentioning Ubuntu in the introduction: The Ubuntu article refers to "Debian" as "The Debian GNU/Linux distribution", yet in its "Features" section it refers to "Windows" as "Microsoft Windows", not as "the Microsoft Windows operating system". Of course, Windows is more famous than Debian or Ubuntu but that lacks coherence. The keyword also links to the Debian wikipedia article so I guess it should just refer to it as "Debian". In the case of the Linux Mint article, this is even more noticeable, since "Linux" already appears in the name of the distribution itself. Articles on Wikipedia seem to favor "Linux" over "GNU/Linux" so that's another reason to modify the introduction in the Ubuntu article. Consequently I've changed "based on the Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution" to "based on Ubuntu". I didn't change the Ubuntu article (I'm already quite busy with this one). Honormuk (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. 'GNU/Linux' might be more technically correct, but I don't think I've ever seen somebody actually use it in conversation. On the 'Microsoft Windows' !'the Microsoft Windows operating system', best guess is that that's because of the potential for confusion as to precisely *which* 'Microsoft Windows' is being referred to, as I can think of ten entirely separate iterations just off the top of my head. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 14:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

New sections and added info

I've added quite a lot of content to the article, all of which I know is 100% correct, but with very few references. I'm quite new to editing things on Wikipedia so bear with me and don't hesitate to discuss unreferenced content here. I'll provide any ref that you think is missing. I'm also about to rewrite the tools section, part of it is incorrect and outdated. Don't hesitate to question my changes here, I'll be happy to bring justifications if needed. Honormuk (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I added a few refs but there are still a lot of unref'd info. I'll add more later on. Honormuk (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

While updating the Mint software section I added up to date info but I also removed references to obsolete software (such as mintassistant, mintconfig..etc.). I'm planning to create a page for the software specific to Linux Mint and I'll add an "Obsolete" section there. This will allow us to get more in depth with these applications and to look at the obsolete ones from a more historical point of view, detailing what they brought at the time of their release and putting them in context. I'm also planning to add info about the new community website and the soon-to-be obsolete software portal. Again, this will be easier with a dedicated page as information about obsolete technologies is interesting for an in-depth reader but not something everybody might be interested in. There's plenty of info missing on the new Mint releases articles though, so I'll probably update that first. Honormuk (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Archiving

I've moved all sections *prior* to 'Palestine - Israel issue', and two following sections, 'Info boxes release question' and 'Debian based distro', to Archive 1 to cut down on page size. Once the WP:3O process on the controversy is finished, I'd suggest moving all *four* sections related to it to a topic archive, as they seem the biggest chunks of the talk page to me. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 19:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a good move. Although, whichever solution is chosen between adding the controversial section or not, I don't think it will put an end to it. Soon or later someone will add it again or delete it again and the discussion will start where it was left off. I've got a solution for this but it requires a lot of work. It consists of listing all notable historical events related to the distribution and making an article out of it. This would bring a nice compromise as the political controversy would then have a place where it could reported without standing out among items which constitute the primary description of Linux Mint. Among other events we could also mention the death of Mats Geier, which is missing in the current article and which is, in a similar way, isn't something that would be part of summarizing what Linux Mint is, but definitely among interesting points for an in-depth reader who wants to know more about the history of the project. I can get to that later on. I'm planning to add more info to the releases article first, then I'll add more info to the development section and make it into its own article and then I can start listing historical events. I'm pretty sure we can reach a wide consensus with this solution. Honormuk (talk) 22:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

That idea works for me. I can start working on the [[History of Linux Mint]] article, if you're willing and able to provide any refs you've collected? --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 23:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Excellent. Could we have a "Timeline and Historical events" section placed between "Popularity" and "Comparison with Ubuntu" with a paragraph giving some general stats about the project since its creation in 2006 and a link to a detailed timeline and list of historical events article? There's a few things to consider:

• The location of that section, in my opinion: It relates to the distribution itself, and as such should be placed before the comparison with Ubuntu. It's targeted at in-depth readers and relates to the past, and therefore should appear after what relates to the present state of the distribution.
• Draft articles. You probably know the answer to my question. I need a day or so to collect the information related to the history of Linux Mint. Can we create a stub article in the meantime or should we wait until the content is ready? What is the policy of Wikipedia on small articles? I was under the impression that they were deleted automatically.

Honormuk (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Work-in-progress articles are generally fine, as long as they're properly identified as such. I'd probably just reuse the {{ActiveDiscuss}} template from the top of this page, and if someone proposes speedy deletion we can just insert {{hangon}} to let them know we're working on improving it to being a worthwhile article in its own right. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 23:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I started working on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mint_Timeline. Honormuk (talk) 15:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Let me commend you both for trying to work something out on this that will satisfy everyone. That's the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. However, let me warn everyone involved that there's plainly an edit war still going on over whether or not the political material should remain in the article in the interim. Let me remind you that WP:3RR says, "Remember that an administrator may still act whenever they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit-warring, even if the three-revert rule has not been breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times." If the edit war continues, someone is going to page–protect this article or some editors are going to get blocked, or both. That would be a shame now that collegiality is now working. — TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 17:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I added a "See Also" section following what's done on the Ubuntu and Windows article. On the Windows article in particular it divides the links between general articles related to operating systems and "further readings" which is perfect to link to the new Linux Mint timeline article. It makes the main article more scalable also as we can now really go in-depth, for instance we could think of a list of Linux Mint reviews. In the timeline article I started adding content following the chronology of the newsletter (because it's full of information and easy to follow). I'll add more content and use other sources at a later stage. I also jumped to May 2009 to mention the political controversy, because it was already written thus easy to add and in an effort to put a stop to the ongoing edit war which is taking place on the main article. The present article looks a bit weird as a consequence, jumping straight to Feb 2007 (creation of the newsletter) and then jumping straight to May 2009 (political controversy), but that's only a temporary problem and it will get better as more content is added to it. Honormuk (talk) 00:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Other controversial bits

Apart from that one (now archived) Mint does have some other controversial aspects. I am thinking about the inclusion of the "Mint Search Enhancer" Firefox add-on, which cannot be uninstalled via the add-on manager, and which apparently exists for the distro to make money by altering Google search requests. See for example, http://devtoe.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-restore-firefox-google-search-in_07.html Lovingboth (talk) 10:56, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't currently have a mint install, but I strongly suspect the "uninstallable" firefox add-on is only as 'uninstallable' as Ubuntu's Firefox Modifications, or (in the Windows world) Microsoft's .NET framework firefox add-on, both of which were were the subject of controversy by people who didn't realise that you have to be running Firefox as root/administrator to uninstall system-wide add-ins. -- simxp (talk) 12:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

True, but there are side-effects to running FF as root (various key files get chowned to root and unless you know to change them back, you end up losing old sessions / add-on setups etc.) Given the audience Mint is aimed at, 'let them run as root' is not really good enough, particularly as it's clear that the team do not want you to uninstall it. Lovingboth (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Editions

The section on the different editions, namely KDE Software Compilation / Xfce / LXDE / Fluxbox / Debian based is not very helpful for the uninitiated - maybe someone could explain in a few words which editions are useful for which types of user? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.27.62 (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

politics

What about his comment on israel?--Baruch ben Alexander - ☠☢☣ 03:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Is that even related to the article's subject? – Adrian Willenbücher (talk) 06:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

CTRL+F, "Israel". --86.5.226.63 (talk) 03:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Not related at all, these materials should be removed completely. It was simply his personal thoughts on the Linux Mint Blog.Wei2912 (talk) 08:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Legality Issues

I think a good, well referenced section on the legality of Linux Mint would do much for this article. If you read any comment section on any news article about Linux Mint, it always devolves into a discussion about the legality. I would write it myself but am confused myself by all the disinformation out there. 138.162.8.58 (talk) 21:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

"Lead rewrite"

The article has had the "lead rewrite" template at the top now since August, but there's no discussion here about what might need to be re-written. The intro looks ok from what I can tell, so I'm gonna go ahead and be bold and remove the template. If anyone has a problem with that, you can go ahead and put it back in, but please discuss here what sort of re-writing you think needs to be done, since it doesn't do anyone any good to just have that template sitting around there for months!... -Helvetica (talk) 11:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Open source

Since Mint includes plenty of non-open source software, I believe it cannot be called an open-source distribution. Maybe a mixed-source distribution, thought that's not a frequently used term. 188.25.186.240 (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Mint, like most other GNU/Linux distros, uses a Linux kernel with some "binary blobs." Also, the standard version of Mint comes with some non-free codecs pre-installed. But if you look at Mint as a whole, it's overwhelmingly FOSS - both at the system level - Linux kernel, GNU tools, X.org, GNOME, etc, and the application software that it comes with - Firefox, Thunderbird, Open Office.org, GIMP, Pidgin, Gedit, etc, etc, etc! -Helvetica (talk) 04:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I believe every closed operating system has at least a couple open source components, and vice versa. I agree with Hevetica- Mint's mostly open source. And same w/ most distros! iPadFanboy 05:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by IPadFanboy (talk • contribs)

System Requirements

Each version, as far back as Mint 4.0 "Daryna" or even older, should have minimum and recommended hardware requirements in the table. That would make it possible to better support older hardware. I've attempted to find this info, but as yet find only anecdotal reports. Best regards to all who work so hard to support Linux Mint. Banjoboye (talk) 01:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Banshee income controversy?

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/12/12/141227/linux-mint-diverting-banshee-revenue 217.144.100.18 (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

No longer. Its split to 50% now.

From Linux Mint 12 onwards, 50% of all profits generated from the Amazon MP3 store will be given to the Banshee :project. The remaining 50% will go towards ‘growing’ Linux Mint.

As from aroundtheweb.info/2011/12/linux-mint-agree-amazon-revenue-share/ Wei2912 (talk) 09:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Reception

One citation of one website from a non-American newspaper does not constitute wide international press coverage. Seriously, are we calling one article international reception? 98.102.149.10 (talk) 12:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you implying that to be 'international' it has to be non-American? CodeCat (talk) 11:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Biased usage of Distrowatch statistics

Distrowatch itself states that the hit counts do not correlate with usage. Using the hit counts, without reliable secondary sources to give them notability, is undue.

And keeping those undue "statistics", but then deleting the explanation from the same website, pertaining to the very statistics themselves, defies logic. Clearly, DistroWatch's own comment on the relevance of the hit counts is at least as due as the hit counts themselves. -- Jorge Peixoto (talk) 03:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

And this is exactly what the article says, there's nothing unclear here, and it makes no sense to replace a section of originally worded content with a fair use quotation, even if it is a minimal one. - SudoGhost 04:00, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

False. The article only says that the hit count is "not a reliable stick", while the comment from DistroWatch itself is far stronger - that is does not even correlate with usage or quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions - which is exactly what the article is doing! Suppressing that quote (which says that what this Wiki article does, should not be done) is extremely misleading. -- Jorge (talk) 17:22, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, the title of the section must be changed from "reception" to "Hit count on DistroWatch". -- Jorge (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

To say something is "False." it must actually be false. Just saying the word false doesn't somehow make it untrue in and of itself. The article "only says" the reliable stick part if that's all you read. If, however, you read the entire thing, you'll note that "it only measures hits on the web site of the various Linux distributions". It spells out what the DistroWatch information means, and nowhere does it say or imply that it "measures the market share of distributions". Where you got this is unclear, but the article does not assert this. It seems the issue here isn't DistroWatch and how it is worded; you're edits make it clear that you have some issue with Linux Mint having a higher number than Ubuntu on DistroWatch. When the removal of what information was reverted, you added "Also, the combined hit count of the several Ubuntu editions (Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Ubuntu Studio and Mythbuntu) surpasses Linux Mint." Your editing focus isn't on the information in itself, but rather downplaying (or outright removing) any information about Linux Mint having a higher count than Ubuntu on that website. - SudoGhost 00:47, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

The current wording omits the information that the hit counts fail to correlate with usage. This is an unacceptable omission. For what reason should we suppress the sentence "Distrowatch itself states that the page hit count does not correlate with usage"? This information is, very clearly, at least as due as the hit counts themselves. What Wikipedia rule/pillar do you think is broken by the inclusion of that sentence?

Regarding where I got the idea that the article uses the hit count as a measurement of usage share - the section is named "Reception"! That strongly implies that the hit count correlates with the distro's reception. Therefore the section title must be changed. Regarding your personal attacks - accusations of bad faith - I refuse to answer that because I don't want to fight that low. But I do warn you that this is against Wikipedia rules.

My proposal is to rename the section to "page hit count on Distrowatch" and change the text to

As of the second half of 2011, Linux Mint's page has the most hits among Linux distribution pages in DistroWatch, surpassing Ubuntu - but DistroWatch itself states that the page hit count does not correlate with usage or quality.

That section should also be moved to the end, since it is the least relevant; in fact, hit count on Distrowatch is just a piece of trivia.

Clearly, these changes would make the article more accurate. -- Jorge (talk) 01:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

It also doesn't say that it does measure usage, it quite clearly says it "only measures hits on the web site", there is no part of that is unclear or confusing, and nothing there could possibly be construed as meaning distro usage. Your edits are what they are, but there are no accusations of bad faith there; accusing someone of personal attacks without evidence of such is itself a personal attack, and I'd ask you to stop accusing me of "your personal attacks" like that.

As for the title, it is a reception section, and needs to be expanded, not removed or renamed to an awkward "DistroWatch" header, that would place undue emphasis on the section. The template makes the need for expansion clear as well, and expanding the section with actual reception would remove any undue emphasis placed in the wording. If you're interested in fixing any WP:UNDUE issues, why don't you look for references for the reception of the article's subject? - SudoGhost 02:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

You said of me "Your editing focus isn't on the information in itself, but rather downplaying (or outright removing) any information about Linux Mint having a higher count than Ubuntu on that website." That looks a lot like an assumption of bad faith. And, how to you justify including in the Reception section an information that we have no reason to associate with reception? As for why I don't include sources of Linux Mint reception, that is because I am not aware of any. And, what is the reason to suppress the words "DistroWatch itself states that the page hit count does not correlate with usage or quality."? -- Jorge (talk) 02:07, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

If it "looks a lot like an assumption of bad faith", that's not an issue of bad faith, but of you failing to assume the assumption of good-faith. Also, as for the wording of DistroWatch, it is WP:UNDUE. That information would belong on the DistroWatch article, not each and every article the word DistroWatch is mentioned, although I notice you've only had an issue with anything pertaining to DistroWatch on the two articles where Linux Mint is said to have a higher count than Ubuntu. The article says that the data "only measures hits on the web site", that's as clear and simple as humanly possible, and addresses everything you've mentioned. - SudoGhost 02:30, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

You failed to convincingly address my points. I will ask for mediation. -- Jorge (talk) 02:34, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

And you've failed to "convincingly" give a single reason for your edits, which is why they were reverted. Your points above are creating issues that don't exist ("it only measures hits on the web site" somehow could be confused for "market share or usage" of distros? Are you serious???). Given that the only constant in your edits are removing any mention of or downplaying any mention of Linux Mint having a higher hit on a website than Ubuntu (on no other article do you have this issue with DistroWatch, only the two that mention this little fact), you're going to need a consensus for your edits first. - SudoGhost 02:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Please add your side of the story, in an organized way, to the section below. I plan to only wait until Saturday. -- Jorge (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Unless you establish a consensus for these contentious changes, they won't be in the article. How long you plan to wait is irrelevant. Your points below were already addressed (even with you refactoring your comment after the fact), and you're creating issues that don't exist and assuming things that aren't even implied, much less stated. - SudoGhost 03:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Completely irrelevant. Only reliable sources must be given in wikipedia. DistroWatch is not a reliable form of data at all, it only shows how many people are interested in it.Wei2912 (talk) 08:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Good thing there are reliable sources in the article giving it relevance then. - SudoGhost 09:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

) Also, clem commented in the IRC channel about unreliable stuff in this page. I've checked his points and found them valid, thus changed them. Check the history page for more info; i will not elaborate more here, as it is irrelevant Wei2912 (talk) 10:28, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Summary of conflict about unreliability of DistroWatch hit counters

Currently, under the section Linux_Mint#Reception, we have the text

{{Undue-section|date=June 2012}} As of 2012, Linux Mint's page on [[DistroWatch]] is the most accessed page among Linux distribution pages there, surpassing Ubuntu. <ref>http://www.pcworld.com/article/244950/ubuntu_shows_distrowatch_decline_as_mint_soars.html</ref><ref>http://www.muktware.com/3193/linux-mint-touches-all-time-high-distrowatch-will-ubuntu-recover</ref><ref>http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2127579/ubuntu-popularity-falls-linux-mint-flourishes</ref> DistroWatch is not a reliable measuring stick to use for overall Linux distribution share, however, as it only measures hits on the web site of the various Linux distributions.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity|title=Linux Distributions - Facts and Figures|publisher=distrowatch.com|accessdate=09 November 2011}}</ref>

I object to that text and to its placement in a section named "Reception". Distrowatch itself states that

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

— DistroWatch, http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity

My points are

1. Measuring the market share of a Linux distro by counting how many times a particular link is clicked on a particular website is very lousy, and clearly vulnerable to gambling by fanboys.
2. DistroWatch itself states explicitly that the hit counters _do not even correlate_ with usage.
3. The presence of the hit counters on a section named "Reception" clearly, and erroneously, implies that they are relevant to Linux Mint's reception.
4. The text does say that the hit counters are an unreliable measurement, and that they only measure how many times a DistroWatch's page is accessed. However, this wording - and the fact that it is in a section named "Reception" - does leave the reader with an idea that the hit counters are relevant to a distro's popularity, even if they have a big margin of error. This is not what DistroWatch itself says - DistroWatch says that the hit counters do not even correlate with popularity, and should not be used to measure market share.

My proposal is:
1. Change the text to

As of 2012, Linux Mint's page on DistroWatch is the most accessed page among Linux distribution pages there, surpassing Ubuntu.<ref>http://www.pcworld.com/article/244950/ubuntu_shows_distrowatch_decline_as_mint_soars.html</ref><ref>http://www.muktware.com/3193/linux-mint-touches-all-time-high-distrowatch-will-ubuntu-recover</ref><ref>http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2127579/ubuntu-popularity-falls-linux-mint-flourishes</ref> But DistroWatch says that its hit counters do not correlate with the usage or quality of a Linux Distribution and should not be used to measure market share.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity|title=Linux Distributions - Facts and Figures|publisher=distrowatch.com|accessdate=17 June 2012}}</ref> <ref> {{cite web|url=http://lwn.net/Articles/470782/|title=Distribution "popularity"|date=2011-12-07|accessdate=2012-06-17|first=Jake|last=edge}} </ref> <ref> {{cite web|url=http://www.zdnet.co.uk/reviews/desktop-os/2012/02/10/a-tale-of-two-distros-ubuntu-and-linux-mint-40095012/|title=A tale of two distros: Ubuntu and Linux Mint|date=2012-02-10|accessdate=2012-06-17|first=Terry|last=Relph-Knight|publisher=ZDNet UK}}</ref>

§1.1. The sentence "its hit counters do not correlate with the usage or quality of a Linux Distribution." is, clearly, at least as relevant and due as the hit counters themselves, and we have a very reliable secondary source (LWN.net) to establish its notability; suppressing it is unjustifiable and makes the article inaccurate.
2. Move the text to either the Introduction or the Linux_Mint#History and development process section, since it is misleading to leave the text in a section named "Reception".
-- Jorge (talk) 15:02, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't in any way imply anything you've said. It doesn't say or imply anything about market share, and specifically says it's only measures page hits on that website. None of your points warrant the edits, and the reception issue can be solved by expanding the reception section. I've added a couple of secondary sources, which solves that issue as well. - SudoGhost 04:42, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Since you've since refactored the above, it's still creating issues which don't exist:

(1) That isn't what the article says. Nothing about market share is said anywhere in the section, stop arguing against something that isn't there. As for the use of DistroWatch in the article, that isn't up to you, reliable sources use it and comment on it, as per the sources in the article.

(2) The article doesn't say or imply this anything about usage, and says quite the opposite. You're creating an issue that doesn't exist.

(3) The reliable sources listed in the section make it relevant, and before you removed the tag, there was a very relevant "expand" tag there. The reception of the article needs to be expanded, not removed.

(4) Same as 1 and 2 above. You're creating an issue that doesn't exist by saying that "it only measures hits on the web site somehow "leaves the reader with an idea" of something that isn't in any way suggested or implied.

Unless you can explain why the changes need to be made by addressing what's actually in the article, you're creating issues that don't exist. - SudoGhost 03:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

My argumentation still implies that the sentence "But DistroWatch says that its hit counters do not correlate with the usage or quality of a Linux Distribution and should not be used to measure market share.", which is supported both by primary and reliable secnodary sources, should be included. I have requested third opinion. See Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements --Jorge (talk)

Third opinion

The wording of the disclaimer as proposed is very awkward, with a caveat to the statement longer than the statement itself. The sentence as it is only discusses DistroWatch hits as DistroWatch hits, and does not claim that this means Mint is more popular in actual use than Ubuntu, nor does it extrapolate anything else from the DistroWatch results. Since the sentence does not claim the results mean anything that DistroWatch cautions not to take the results as, there is no need for a long, awkward disclaimer. I do not see the need for any caveat or refutation to a claim that isn't even made. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

A last proposal

How about

As of 2012, Linux Mint's page on DistroWatch is the most accessed page among Linux distribution pages there, surpassing Ubuntu.<ref>http://www.pcworld.com/article/244950/ubuntu_shows_distrowatch_decline_as_mint_soars.html</ref><ref>http://www.muktware.com/3193/linux-mint-touches-all-time-high-distrowatch-will-ubuntu-recover</ref><ref>http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2127579/ubuntu-popularity-falls-linux-mint-flourishes</ref> DistroWatch does not measure overall market share, however, as it only measures hits on the page of the various Linux distributions.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity|title=Linux Distributions - Facts and Figures|publisher=distrowatch.com|accessdate=09 November 2011}}</ref><ref> {{cite web|url=http://lwn.net/Articles/470782/|title=Distribution "popularity"|date=2011-12-07|accessdate=2012-06-17|first=Jake|last=edge}} </ref> <ref> {{cite web|url=http://www.zdnet.co.uk/reviews/desktop-os/2012/02/10/a-tale-of-two-distros-ubuntu-and-linux-mint-40095012/|title=A tale of two distros: Ubuntu and Linux Mint|date=2012-02-10|accessdate=2012-06-17|first=Terry|last=Relph-Knight|publisher=ZDNet UK}}</ref>

-- Jorge (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

That wording is more awkward than what's currently there. The current wording says nothing about, nor gives any indication that it is about market share. - SudoGhost 04:10, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

OK. -- Jorge (talk) 14:23, 24 June 2012 (UTC)