Talk:Military production during World War II

Big Problems

There are an immense number of problems here. Germany could and did exploit occupied Europe to produce all sorts of military equipment. Similarly the Dutch East Indies produced oil for first one side and then the other. The changing nature of equipment is not covered e.g. the incredible increased production and demand for valves during the course of the war. The statement that no British self-propelled gun of tank mounted a gun bigger than 75mm is false as the 17pdr anti-tank gun was 76.2mm and monted on a British chassis as the archer and on a Sherman chassis as the firefly.

Agree, this article is of extremely poor quality. The USSR invaded "allies"; Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1939 and got tossed from the League of Nations for its earlier invasion of Finland. The USSR also attacked Romania prior to it joining the Axis. The Comintern was actively working against the Western Allies prior to the Nazi betrayal of the USSR in 1941. In Churchill's memoirs he makes it quite clear that the USSR was supplying huge quantities of war materials to Nazi Germany up the day prior to the Nazi invasion. Specifically, he reminds the Soviets that even in the weeks prior to the Nazi invasion, the UK considered it likely that the USSR would attack British interests. Applying 67% of USSR GDP to the allies prior to 1941 is absurd. When the USSR does get attacked, they sign a non-aggression pact with Japan and cut off supplies to China; which isn't even mentioned in the article. Stalin himself stated it was his objective to aid the Nazis in the destruction of Britain. 7o62x39 (talk) 22:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Source?

Hi, what is the source for this data? Could someone please list it in the references section? Thanks, nyenyec ☎ 02:57, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi, can someone please state the reason why the stated US Aircraft carrier production is so disproportionate compared with the other nations that are listed. If the carrier escorts are included and not just the fleet carriers, why aren't the UK's carrierescort production included also?

I'm not sure about the exact accuracy of some of these numbers or the definition of "WWII" dates, but the US carrier number must be counting all the small, slow "jeep" carriers that were converted cargo ships which escorted convoys or invasion fleets.Wikist 03:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be good if somebody could clarify this point precisely. The figures are highly misleading as the US certainly did not launch that many aircraft carriers in WW2, not by a long, long shot! Simmyymmis 22:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fixed the number based on a WWII book I have, added note explaining the 141. laddiebuck 19:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

From "Summary of Production" on through the rest of the article, I do not see citations indicating the source of this data. (I could have missed them?) If we cannot find some sources for it, this article should be flagged with the needing citation template. LawrenceTrevallion 16:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Some of the totals do not add up either when compared to other sources listed on Wiki: for instance aircraft totals for the US and Germany differ from the totals listed in the 'aircraft production in WW2' page Simmyymmis 01:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

So many of the totals do not even compare to other articles on wikipedia. For example "Germany armored fighting vehicles" (which itself has no sources listed). Stating you "Fixed the number based on a WWII book you have" is a really useless piece of information; Title, Author, year published, are at least, a bare minimum.

US/UK transport aircraft split

don't know if this is worth adding as a note but there was an agreement between the US and UK for the latter to avoid transport plane production to centrate on "sharp end" military aircraft. GraemeLeggett 16:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

British Empire

Query: is the data for the UK the British Isles alone or the entire British empire? Sam 16:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Presumably for the UK alone, as both Canada and Commonwealth are listed seperately Simmyymmis 22:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Not for various types of aircraft production. GraemeLeggett 08:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The article is written from a non-neutral perspective. Could we:

1. Include propaganda images from other countries (UK, Germany, USSR)

2. Reconsider the designation "smaller-producing nation" for the UK under "Tanks and self-propelled guns"?

3. Balance the number of images of various military hardware by country -- right now it is mostly US, plus 1 image each for USSR and Germany.

laddiebuck 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, by all means, go ahead and make changes. --Dna-Dennis ^{talk - contribs} 12:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong the fact and figures, this is after all a reference work, but some more text can be inserted, I think. Some words on the organization of the production and the German mistake to concentrate on a few successul designs. Andries 19:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources ????

There is no way that British GDP is comparable with USSR and Germany, since both countries had bigger population and way bigger millitary and civil production. This is ridiculous.

Actually Germany did *not* have a "way" bigger military and civil production than the UK in WWII, and the UK was a far bigger manufacturer of, for instance, passenger cars in the 1930s than Germany. --Ggbroad 03:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

well when you look at the empire section you can clearly see that the GDP of the British Empire is $683.3 billion in 1938 Which means that it is considerably bigger then either the USSR or Nazi Germany, and as far as population goes well 458 million people is far larger then any other allied country except china.NH-obi (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Carriers and Battleships

I did read somewhere that the US had 22 carriers and in () it said 141, how is that so? And also, I have a source saying Italy only made 1 battleship, is there a source for 3?--SurfingMaui540 23:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

"Potential contribution"

US values are included in Allied totals for all years in order to illustrate potential contribution & Lend-Lease

It seems odd to have the US contribution, over 50% of the allied total, for the period 1938 to March 1941 (when the Lend Lease program started) included only "to illustrate potential contribution", especially when other countries are treated differently. I'd really like to see what the curve of the graph would look like if it only included actual contribution. And why are the notes in text different from the notes in the chart image, when the total figures are identical? —Michael Z. 2007-08-12 16:01 Z

Other figures

Another good source is Overy (1998), Russia's War: A History of the Soviet War Effort: 1941–1945, tables on p. 155: "Soviet and German wartime production 1941–45. Table 1B "Heavy Industry" compares tonnes of coal, steel, aluminum, and oil produced annually by the USS and Germany. The figures are not what many would expect, and it is interesting to compare the higher output of equipment of the resource-poor USSR. It adds another layer of information which is not shown just by the GDP figures.

When I have some time, I will transcribe the data. —Michael Z. 2007-08-12 16:06 Z

Chart

It seems that the chart showed is misleading. Please see the following link http://www.onwar.com/articles/0302.htm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.117.43 (talk) 13:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

New graph

Could I recommend a graph with the following figures per nation per year?

• Oil
• Coal
• Iron ore
• Equipment (measured in tons) (different color for lend-lease)
• GDP

That should sum up production figures quite well. Oberiko (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

concrete and bunkers

i have done some calculations on the tonnes for concrete used in total, in say pill boxes, and the Atlantic wall and so on.

Should there not be some sort of figure on this vital quantity?

I can give figures for Atlantic Wall, but what about the other theatres?

Engineman (talk) 03:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Canada/Commonwealth

Here's a question: in the merchant tonnage category, why is Canada mentioned apart from the Commonwealth, with no explanation? There should be a footnote for this. It should also probably be "British Commonwealth", as this was the title of the organization until 1949. `Parsecboy (talk) 14:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

concrete and bunkers

No one has responded to my suggestion that these quantites be included, so i have made a start and will be improving this over the next few weeks.Engineman (talk) 07:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

French aircraft production numbers

French contribution to the military production is still missing in the article in general. I added the numbers of aircraft production, based on the production numbers of french aircraft built in series from 09/1939 (start of WW2) to 06/1940 (armistice in the west).

The following aircraft types were included (with production figures taken from Wikipedia articles, which I assumed to rely on well-researched sources):

FIGHTERS:

• Morane-Saulnier MS.406 (542)
• Dewoitine D.520 (437)
• Bloch MB.151 / Bloch MB.152 (518)
• Caudron C.714 (80)
• Arsenal VG-33 (20)

TOTAL: 1597

BOMBERS:

• LeO 451 (430)
• Amiot 351 / Amiot 354 (60)
• Bloch MB.174 / Bloch MB.175 (79)
• Potez 633
• Farman NC.223 (10)

TOTAL: 712

ATTACK AIRCRAFT:

• Breguet Br.690 + variants (220)
• Loire-Nieuport LN.40 (60)

TOTAL: 280

RECON AIRCRAFT (being a big part of total production):

• Potez 63-11 (1365)
• Potez 637 (61)

TOTAL: 1427

Best regards -- Hierakares (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Figueres for France and Checheslovakia

It would be nice to know the strengh of the Chech an French military strengh before the outbreak of WW II.--89.182.9.41 (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Battleship numbers

Something seems really off on the BB production. Japan in no way, shape, or form built or even laid down 12 Battleships during the war. Even if you count refits, you have the Yamato, Musashi, Shinano (never finished, converted to carrier), Ise (converted to carrier hybrid), and Hyuga (converted to carrier hybrid). You have the Nagatos (2 of them), but they only had minor refits...same with the Fusos (2 of them), and the Kongos (4 of them). And since refits should not count (and obviously do not count since that would be 13 BBs), where did the "12" come from?

The German numbers also seem iffy (You have the Tirpitz and Bismarck...are they also counting the H-39 hulls laid down? Or are they counting refits on the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau?)

Can we get a source on these numbers? Because I'd like to know what "historian" fudged his research that badly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.160.128 (talk) 00:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Just adding to this....for Japan:

--Kongo, Kirishima, Hiei, and Haruna....all built between 1912 and 1913. Only 4 hulls laid down, all 4 completed before the war starts.

--Yamashiro and Fuso....both built between 1912 and 1915. Only 2 hulls ever laid down, both hulls completed before the war starts.

--Ise and Hyuga....built in 1916 and 1917 respectively. Both converted to carrier hybrids in 1943. Only 2 hulls ever laid down, both completed before the war starts and then converted during the war.

--Nagato and Mutsu....built in 1920 and 1921 respectively. Only 2 hulls ever laid down, both hulls completed before the war starts.

--Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, unnamed....built in 1941 (Yamato), 1942 (Musashi), Converted to Carrier in 1944 (Shinano), hull 30% completed and then scrapped in 1942 (unnamed).

So....going by this, you can MAYBE count 6 ships (Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Unnamed Yamato Class, Ise, Hyuga)....and that's really stretching it (as the Ise and Hyuga were already built, just converted) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.160.128 (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

German figures

Do we have any sources for these production figures for the entire war?

At any rate I feel that a note should be added to this figure to show the breakdown between tanks and self propelled guns; so people can realise that the Germans did not have in the region of 60+ thousand tanks (yes i do realise the figure includes SP Guns). I think a breakdown would be very beneficial.

Going off the current wiki articles the Germans produced the following:

MK III - nearly 6000 all variants MK IV tanks - 8,000 all variants a good chunk of which did not use 75mm guns but also includes tanks produced before the war. Panther - 6,000 Tigers - 2,000 (MK I and II) StuG III and StuH 41 - around 11,000 StuG IV - around 1000 models

So of the main machines in use by German that totals up to around 34,000 (of which only 22,000 were tanks and a good chunk did not mount long barrelled 75mm guns); so the other 30,000 machines procuded by the Germans what were they? Obvious the answer is SP guns in some form or another, but do these include SP artillery and SP anti-aircraft guns? Halftracks with mounted artillery, anti-tanks weapons, mortars etc?

The Germans had another 12,000 machines with 75mm guns so what are they? I just feel somewhat doubtfull that the Germans produced 12,000 variants of Jagdpanzers, Marders, Nashorns etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.0.3 (talk) 11:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Soviet “Allies” before Barbarossa.

Before June 22, 1941, the Soviet Union had a pact with Germany, not with the UK nor France, supplied Germany while it invaded Poland and France, and participated in the joint invasion of Poland. Why on Earth is Soviet production counted towards Allied in 1939, and why isn’t it counted towards Axis production in 1939–41? —Michael Z. 2011-10-31 06:10 z

Then why on Earth England and France didn't declare a war on Soviet Union for Poland, maybe never thinking that USSR was (or would be) really a part of the Axis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.32.41.112 (talk) 19:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I certainly didn't write that part of the article, but prior to the Nazi-Soviet pact, the USSR was technically in an alliance with the UK and France. There was no military alliance and no transfer of Soviet military hardware, between the USSR and Germany, but German acquisition of Soviet raw materials (mainly oil) should be counted in Germany's favour. This footnote seems reasonable: " 4) Soviet Union-Allies distribution: 1939: Only 67% due to the pact with Germany, but none to Axis. During 1940 Soviet Union is not counted at all. 1941: 44% is distributed to the Allies (after Operation Barbarossa), 1942-1945: 100%."Damwiki1 (talk) 03:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

References?

I would love to know how an article like this could possibly be written without sources. Where are the references? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.100.132.60 (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

There are references listed, and the data presented seems reasonable.Damwiki1 (talk) 03:08, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Soviet submarines figures

I have made a database of all Soviet and Russian submarines, from 1903 to now. Curiously the figure I have for 1938 - 1945 is a total of 130 submarines, not 52 as indicated You can check the figures here, on my website http://soumarsov.pagesperso-orange.fr/Perspectiv/list_unit_18_45.htm Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.19.195.244 (talk) 19:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• Well, if you sum all numbers from List of Soviet and Russian submarine classes#World War II Era, you will get even more (280). I'm going to ask for some sources in ru-wiki. Ain92 (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
• Hello. I'm founder of Project:Submarines in ru-wiki, my hobby is all about submarines and I have a lot of books about soviet submarines in WWII. I don't know where did you find a number 52, but I know, that amount of soviet submarines to June 22, 1941, was 211. 202 of them were built in Soviet Union in 1929-1941, and also there were 2 x Ronis class, 2 x Kalev class, L-55, B-2 (former Panther of Bars-class) and 5 x AG-class.

If you want to check something, then please ask more detailed question. I'll answer with pleasure. --Rave (talk) 20:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Hello, colleague. The anonymous means the number 52 in Military production during World War II#Naval ships. We have the same figures in ru:Военное производство во время Второй мировой войны#Подводные лодки. There're no sources anywhere. Could you fix it? Ain92 (talk) 16:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Materials?

The "materials" box doesn't state which unit the numbers refer to. 590.8 what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.185.247.140 (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)