Talk:Germans

Choices for the infobox

Those are some weird choices in the infobox. Eduard Lasker, Emma Ihrer, Christine Teusch, Walter Ulbricht, Christa Wolf and Nena? Not to say those aren't somehow important but there would be much more notable people to pick for this. Kant, Siemens, Gutenberg, Planck, Röntgen, Mozart, Adenauer, Marx just to name a few that would fit a lot better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.153.64 (talk) 15:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

restore original images - clearly no consensus for change - see talk archive. --IIIraute (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

There were barely any women in that montage, and the montage is not easily editable should such certain images within that montage be deleted. German identity has become more and more ambiguous over the years, especially with post-WWII Austrians not identifying as ethnic Germans. Did Marx identify as a German? He became a British citizen, did he assimilate into British culture? Sigh, just wait until the anti-Semitic and anti-German chauvinist bigots arrive here to discuss this, then we will have to hear all the barely-restrained murderous-mindset rages by such chauvinist bigots about Germans and Jews all over again.--R-41 (talk) 18:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought we had consensus to include assimilated Jews? I don't think anyone would really argue that Marx was British? He is known as a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, etc.. Same goes for Einstein - he received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German laureate. Both were born, raised and educated in Germany - both are of converted, assimilated (German)-Jewish background - and both of them did write all their major works in German. So either we do include assimilated Jews - or we don't. Mozart did describe himself as being German - was born in Salzburg, which until after his death did not become part of Austria. The city was founded by the Bavarians and had always been part of Bavaria. His father was from Augsburg, Bavaria - his mother also from Salzburg. Please have a look at a map - some parts of the city of Salzburg are basically still within the modern boundaries of Germany. We are not talking about Vienna. Maybe we could add Merkel, Steffi Graf or Hildegard von Bingen to have more women? --IIIraute (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

If they are significant historical examples of German women, then that is acceptable. Due to the constant mentioning and accusations of POV for his exclusion, I think Hitler will need to be added to the infobox. Hitler is a very well-known ethnic German, exclusion based on arguments of political correctness will only encourage the matter to come up again and again - I say put the picture in, and let the issue die down. Inclusion of controversial historically significant people has been done on other infoboxes. The Georgians infobox for instance includes Stalin in it.--R-41 (talk) 03:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Although I can't see the need to alter the picture gallery, nor can I find any recent edit requests to add Hitler (a serious non-IP request), I have no problem with adding him to the gallery. If you feel one has to add Hitler, do it - but please do not remove the current file! You could exchange Brandt for Hitler, or otherwise add another five pictures below the existing file, for example: Angela Merkel, Hermann Hesse, Hildegard von Bingen, Adolf Hitler, Steffi Graf.--IIIraute (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Deep ancestry and genetics

should interesting information like this not be in the article?

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This page couldn't be anymore bias & Anglocentric. I like how under ethnicity there is absolutely no mention of Angles or Saxons (they DID NOT all leave Germany). No mention of Vikings either despite Germany sharing a border with a Scandinavian country. Despite Germany having more Haplogroup I1 than England does. Despite the North of Germany looking more Germanic on average than ALL of England. Yet on England's page, whats the first thing they mention? Vikings. When the reality is the majority of Brits are Celts, and don't look Germanic at all.

The page goes even further to try an insinuate that Germans are more mixed than they are. Even going as far as to name Jews....Seriously? Both France & England have had higher populations of Jews than Germany. Infact France has more immigrants in their country than the whole of Europe (half their football team is black), and if you go to Paris, there is nothing but people from the 3rd world. No mention of this on France's page? yet they mention "Gauls" as if the french are anything similar to Gauls today.

Jews should not have even been listed anywhere on a topic about German ethnicity, they have remained a small number, and they generally have entirely different Haplogroups, and genetic markers than ethnic Germans and Europeans for the matter. They have nothing to do with modern German genetic make up. If you want to link Jews to someone in Europe, try Sicilians, thats who they cluster with, not Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C4EA:CA0:FDE4:FA3E:2BE4:137F (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Why exactly do you take so much offense to the idea that most Jews are of German ancestry and that likewise there are likely Germans who had ancestors in the Jewish faith? I find it strange you seem to mention things like purity, "Germanicness" (protip- finland is blonder and more blue eyed than any "Germanic" country except Sweden)and Jews.96.231.17.247 (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I also find very weird the comments by the former user. Just for the record, since he mentions it, according to the Genetic Map above, England does have a higher Haplogroup I ratio than Germany. Besides, Germany, from a Haplogroup or "genetic lines" point of view, is quite diverse, as the Haplogroup map above shows. The Myth of Germanic "purity" is, as we know, linked to National Socialist propaganda, and modern genetic science kicks it in the ass. Actually, if we want to speak about "purity" from the point of view of genetic lines or "genetic families", we have to look at Eskimos, Amerindians or some African groups as examples, but certainly not at Europeans, let alone at Germans. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 04:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Karl Marx and Albert Einstein are not Germans

They are Jews. They were Germans by nationality, but due to the fact the article is about Germans as an ethnic group, please take out those two people from the info box. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, which means ethnicity formed around a religion, and Marx and Einstein were of Jewish ethnicity.

I understand you Germans have some guilt feelings for the holocaust and you try to show how you are good in integrating Jews now (70 years too late), but please remember the article is about an ethnic group and Marx and Einstein were not of German ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree in principle that it seems presumptuous for us to include these people in a category that neither they themselves nor their environment considered or wished them to be part of -- if that is indeed the case. Iblardi (talk) 14:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Marx very clearly and unequivocally considered himself a German and not a Jew. In fact his views on Jews would today be considered antisemitic.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

But treating Marx as an ethnic German is not without its problems either. The nature and degree of his "Jewishness" seems to be an issue with which his biographers have been wrestling. For instance, J. Carlebach, in Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism, 1978, pp. 320-323) concludes that Marx, although he "Marx was not a Jew in any religious, national or cultural sense" and "was never what someone once called ‘functionally Jewish’, ... was Jewish in two respects. First, by descent, and second, by common consent. (...) The little evidence we possess would suggest that, while Marx would have agreed with a description of himself as a Jew by descent, he would have resented the second, though it was and remains something he could not escape" (my italics). The tyranny of external ascription? Iblardi (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Has been discussed a thousand times. RFC/editor consensus has clearly been in favour to include German Jews from assimilated background/assimilated Jews - see talk archive. --IIIraute (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

But I suppose that the discussion is not so much about whether persons of Jewish descent can or cannot be ethnic Germans, but rather whether particular Jewish individuals who self-identified as Jews should here be included as ethnic Germans even if they would have rejected the idea themselves. What about that source quoted by Table Lamp 47 in October 2011, Fölsing's biography of Einstein, which was supposed to have "nailed the issue" regarding Einstein's self-ascribed ethnicity? According to that editor, Einstein was "a strongly motivated Zionist (Fölsing 1997, 494–505)," who "opposed assimilation as a contemptible form of “mimicry” (p. 490)". What happened there -- was the source misquoted? Iblardi (talk) 18:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, he still was an (at least) eighth generation German citizen of converted, assimilated non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate. --IIIraute (talk) 01:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It matters insofar as ethnicity is now commonly defined in terms of both external ascription and self-identification, as the article Ethnic group makes clear. The latter aspect should not be ignored. Iblardi (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Just because Einstein did support the creation of a Jewish state (although once created, he didn't move there himself), it does not mean that he wasn't German. In his youth, Einstein did not identify strongly with Jewish culture and religion.[1] And even if he did, it's a matter of religion and not of ethnicity. Einstein did choose to spend most of his life in German speaking countries, and chose to return to Germany and to become a German national again in 1914. He chose to become a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, and in 1916, Einstein voluntarily accepted being appointed president of the German Physical Society. He did choose to spend most of his adult life in Germany and for his whole life, even when living in the USA, he did continue to use the German language. He was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, (and did choose to continue to use both of them for his whole life) born, raised and educated in Germany, attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate, the latter, again by choice! So, somehow he must have identified with the German culture, language, etc. --IIIraute (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Still, Einstein's case is problematic. According to Z. Rosenkranz, Einstein before Israel: Zionist icon or iconoclast? (Princeton 2011), Einstein’s identification with the Jews was primarily "ethnic and cultural, not religious, in nature". Einstein referred to his "coreligionists"(!) "time and again" as "'ethnic comrades' (Stammesgenossen), thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews. For him", according to Rosenkranz, "the central characteristics of the Jews as a nation were ethnic lineage, 'a sense of being different,' and 'predominantly' non-religious traditions".

Rosenkranz writes that Einstein saw the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry" (my italics -- this addresses the issue of assimilation mentioned above).

"In contrast, he was profoundly impressed by what he perceived as the ethnic authenticity and cultural achievements of the Ostjuden (...)" (p. 255).

"His relationship to his own German identity was also fraught with ambivalence"; in the end, however, "though never explicitly acknowledged by Einstein, he felt a great deal of allegiance to German culture, and even more to the German scholarly ethic" (p. 255-56). (Note, however, that the author does not speak of an ethnic bond.) Yet, immediately after the war, Einstein "was thoroughly disgusted with the 'horrid Europeans' in general. This anti-European sentiment also resulted in Einstein defining himself (and the Jews) as non-European", and "he employed his Jewish ethnocentrism, ingrained in him from a very early age, to conclude that Zionism was qualitatively different from other forms of nationalism and therefore worthy of his support" (p. 256-57).

All of this seems to suggest that Einstein cherished his Jewish ethnic identity and rejected the idea of him being a German in an ethnic sense, despite his affiliation with German culture. Iblardi (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what this seems to suggest - I do know that this is all supposition. However, the points I have made are facts. Einstein was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen, who was born, raised and educated in Germany, and did choose to return to spend most of his adult life there. That's surely enough to make him an ethnic German.--IIIraute (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The facts you made have nothing to do with the discussion. Einstein was of Jewish ethnicity, it's a fact. As assimilated as he was for 8 generations his ancestors made sure to mary only Jews, another fact. What you talk about is nationality. Nothing can make him an ethnic German because you can't change your genes, that's another fact. In fact, during the holocaust Germany was killing Jews an as ethnic group, a conversion would not help. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you repeat a lie many times it will not make it true. Jews are an ethnicity and a religion. Einstein was 100% Jewish by ethnicity. He was not Jewish by religion, it's known, but he always identified as a Jew. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Editing decisions that are solely based on an editor's own reasoning from primary data without regard for the opinions expressed by secondary sources would fall under WP:SYNTH, I think. If a mainstream scholarly source has something relevant to say about the specific issue under discussion, it should not be summarily dismissed. Iblardi (talk) 20:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

What I found is this: According to John Stachel (“Einstein's Jewish identity,” in: Einstein from ‘B’ to ‘Z’ (Boston, 2002), p. 57-75), Einstein’s parents were “even more assimilated to German culture, particularly in its love for the German literary classics, than had been previous generations of south German Jews.” Still, “they unhesitatingly identified themselves as Jews and continued certain Jewish customs” although they “did not practice the Jewish religion or observe kosher dietary laws” (Stachel, 2002, p. 58). Einstein’s family, “similar to other rural Jews”, showed a “high degree of interdenominational tolerance: among village Jews it was common for pupils to attend christian public schools and receive private Jewish tutoring at home.” (Rosenkranz, op. cit., 2011, p. 13). In fact, there had been no Jewish schools in Munich since 1872. Thus it happened that Einstein received Catholic instruction alongside his “private Jewish instruction” (Stachel, 2002, p. 59). Gender roles at home appear to have been “well-defined and traditional in nature, similar to those in the rural Jewish family” (Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 13). Rosenkranz notes that “like other members of the German Jewish minority, the Einsteins clearly maintained a ‘Jewish familial 'inside'’ and a ‘German ‘outside’’—a condition defined by one German historian [i.e. Till van Rahden] as the “situative ethnicity” of the German Jews”.

Later, when he resided in Switzerland, there still was, as Einstein wrote in 1921, “nothing that called forth any Jewish sentiments” in him, but “all that changed” in 1914, when he moved to Berlin. There, he writes, “I discovered for the first time that I was a Jew, and I owe this discovery more to Gentiles than to Jews” (Stachel, 2002, p. 62). Einstein’s “Jewish identity” (in terms of self-consciousness) “was essentially established” by 1923 (Stachel, 2002, 57). From that time onward, apparently, he would refer to the Jews as his Stammesgenossen, “thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews” and would charactierize the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry" (Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 255; also cited above).

When all of the above is taken into consideration, the claim that Einstein should be considered an ethnic German seems at least debatable. Iblardi (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Look, I think it is great that Einstein suddenly discovered "that he was a Jew" in his late thirties, but this article is about Germans as an ethnic group, and not Einstein's religio-moral identity crises. And guess what: you can be German and Jewish! --IIIraute (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be consistently missing the point. Ethnicity, not religion, is exactly what the sources are talking about, as you should have seen if you had read my postings. I shouldn’t have to repeat this, but once again, for clarity’s sake:

According to the above sources, Einstein’s parents “unhesitatingly identified themselves as Jews and continued certain Jewish customs” although they “did not practice the Jewish religion”; "the central characteristics of the Jews as a nation were ethnic lineage, 'a sense of being different,' and 'predominantly' non-religious traditions"; Einstein referred to the Jews "time and again" as "ethnic comrades (Stammesgenossen), thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews”; Einstein saw the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry"; “like other members of the German Jewish minority, the Einsteins clearly maintained a ‘Jewish familial 'inside'’ and a ‘German ‘outside’’—a condition defined by one German historian [i.e. Till van Rahden] as the “situative ethnicity” of the German Jews”. Now, this last quotation, about "situative" or "situational" ethnicity, which is a somewhat ambiguous term, brings up an interesting point: would it be possible for Einstein to be considered both an ethnic Jew and an ethnic German? Perhaps so, but this should be investigated rather than taken for granted, as you now seem to do. Iblardi (talk) 06:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

However, this seems highly doubtful. Rosenkranz (2011) also quotes from a letter to the Centralverein Deutscher Staatsbürger Jüdischen Glaubens, written in April 1920, in which Einstein “reconfirms his Jewish identity in a positive manner and once more rejects his German identity: I am neither a German citizen nor is there anything in me that can be described as “Jewish faith.” But I am a Jew, and I am glad that I belong to the Jewish people, even though in no way do I consider them to be the chosen ones. Let us leave anti-Semitism to the goy and let us keep the love of our brethren”” (p. 75). It is obvious that the word goy includes the Germans and that Einstein is not thinking of himself in terms of multiple ethnical identities here. Iblardi (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The reason why this talking about “tribal brotherhood” may be more important than the actual degree to which Einstein or his family had been assimilated into German society is that, since the work of Fredrik Barth, self-ascription has come to be seen as one of the more crucial factors in defining ethnic identities. This can be shown by a few quotes taken from contemporary writers on ethnicity:

> L.A. Wilkie, Creating Freedom: Material Culture and African-American Identity at Oakley Plantation, Louisiana, 1845-1950 (2000), p. 7: “Frederick Barth’s (1969) Ethnic Groups and Boundaries quickly became the leading text within the field due to Barth’s reconceptualization of ethnic groups as forms of social organizations that maintained boundaries, rather than content, as the primary means of retaining ethnicity and that define themselves through self-ascription, not just through labeling by outsiders... . (...) Barth’s tenets continue to shape the way that many anthropologists define ethnicity”.

> K. Frøystad, Blended boundaries : caste, class and shifting faces of 'Hinduness' in a North Indian city (2005), p. 19: “For Barth, as for Eriksen and others who stand on his shoulders, ethnicity primarily pertains to ascription and self-ascription of group membership and cultural characteristics.”

> J.J. E. Gracia, Surviving Race, Ethnicity, and Nationality: A Challenge for the Twenty-First Century (2005), p. 43: “...sociologists frequently make self-naming, self-definition, and self-awareness necessary conditions of ethnicity (cf. Isaacs 1975, 34-35; Parsons 1975, 56; Horowitz 1975, 113; Hayes-Bautista 1983, 275-76; Aboud 1987, 32; for philosophers, see Bernstein 2001; Outlaw 1996, 7).”

> C. Dowd, The construction of Irish identity in American literature (2011), p. 10: “Barth’s work shows his struggle against essentialist thinking, and in his 1998 preface to the new edition of his book, he makes use of the vocabulary popularized by modern critics to clarify his point, noting that ethnicity is a matter of “social organization” and “self-ascription” rather than “empirical cultural difference”.”

Many other examples could be cited. Now, if this criterion of self-ascription also applies to individuals -which I do not know for sure- the question that should next be asked is whether Einstein's own statements regarding his Jewishness and his "non-Germanness", as quoted above, are in themselves enough to exclude him from the German ethnic group. Iblardi (talk) 18:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute, you keep on referring to Jews as a religion which just highlights how little you know on the topic. Jews are an ethnic group and a religios group, the identities can exist separately. It's obvious Einstein and Marx were of Jewish ethnicity and they had no one in their family of German ethnicity. Maybe it's in your genes to want to wipe the Jewish race, I don't know, but the fact is, Jewish is an ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 06:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"IIIraute...maybe it's in your genes to want to wipe the Jewish race, I don't know..." thanks for revealing your true colours - please say no more! -- enough has been said!! ...don't take yourself so important, you f***ing racist!!! --IIIraute (talk) 14:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It's funny to hear accusations of being racist from a guy who tries to deny the existance of a whole ethnicity. I'm totally not racist and support the right of every ethnicity or race to exist and express itself without being harmed, especially when talking about a minority. I didn't say it's in the genes of all Germas to wipe the Jewish race, I spoke just about you, that's why my comment is not racist. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

At second thought, I do appologise for that comment I made. It is nasty and I shouldn't have said it. But the fact is, for me as a Jew it does look suspicious to see a person denying the obvious fact that Jews are not just a religion but an ethnicity. Even the Israeli law of return is built on the principle that a person can immigrate to Israel even if they are christian as long as one of their grandparents was of Jewish ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

No, it doesnt matter! My family where what you described in Germany, but the fact is, after all that they still married Jews and ethnically they were Jewish. The article is about Germans as an ethnic group, not nationality. The fact is, both Einstein's parents and Marx's parents were of Jewish ethnicity, and so were they. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what concensus you are talking about. Many times people said that people who are not ethnically German should not be in the collage and all of them were dismissed in the named of the so called "concensus", which is ironic because here this word is just used by a minority to dismiss a majority. Even though they were assimilated, ethnically they were not German (as much as you would want them to be). If you decided to go according to the national principle and not ethnical, why is there not even one person of Turkish ethnicity? Mesut Ozil for example. There are many assimilated Turks in Germany. Many people mentioned it before and it's obviously the real concensus is not to put non Germans in the collage. You don't need to feel guilty about it, I'm a Jew and I can tell you it's ok, it's just following the procedures of ethnic articles. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you do not see what consensus is being talked about, then you have not checked the archives. That what convinces you strongly is not seen as convincing by the others. By the way, Karl Marx was not a Jew. And if it it would be very strange if all people who are Jews by Halakhic law were excluded from the list of all other countries, not just Germany. Mesut Özil (note spelling) is not in any way as important as, for instance, Karl Marx. Should he become world footballer of the year three times in a row, he might be a candidate for inclusion. -- Zz (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Uh, yes he was. It says on his Wikipedia page that he was of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I love it when people who have no idea of the topic start talking about it :-) Jews are an ethnoreligious group, which mean an ethnicity formed around a religion, which includes similar genes (Jews have genes from the middle east as a reference to where they came from). I don't consider myself Jewish by religion, but I am Jewish by ethnicity and nothing can change that. Karl Marx was 100% Jewish ethnically, it has nothing to do with religion. What the Jewish religion says has nothing to do with ethnic identity. If a German converted to Judaism he still remained German by ethnicity, but he obviously is Jewish by religion. Same thing. Karl Marx was ethnically Jewish, his genes were Jewish and not Germanic. I looked at the "concensus" and other pages in the archive and I saw that many people numerous time brough up the fact that people who are not of German ethnicity should be not put in the collage, so again, there is no concensus on the topic, that's why I reopened the conversation. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

ethnicity is not exclusively based on geneaology as commonly assumed, but can be based on geneaology and/or culture and language. please see → RFC → [2] ← --IIIraute (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is genetics+history, what you are talking about is cultural identity or national identity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Make yourself familiar with Wikipedia. During this, check what tone is expected, why a logical argument is preferred, and how that is presented. For instance, I don't consider myself Jewish by religion, but I am Jewish by ethnicity and nothing can change that is just a personal view. Moreover, it does not refute the points brought up by others in any way.

If you really think that persons who are Jews by Halakhic law are not eligible for the inclusion in the notables of any country, then this discussion page is the wrong place to discuss it anyhow. Go to the right place, establish a consensus that Jews should be deleted from the list of notables of any country, and report back. -- Zz (talk) 17:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This personal view is an example of a fact, you don't have to be Jewish by religion to be ethnically Jewish or the other way round. Raional arguments don't really work here. Many people come and say Einstein and Marx and Jewish by ethnicity, not German, but for a reason it keeps on being dismissed in the name of a certain "concensus". First of all, a concensus can be changed, Wikipedia is built on the principle of constant improvement. Second, a concensus doesnt get challenged so often by so many people. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is a social rather than biological construct. Germans in each state may be more related to people in neighboring non-German provinces than to other Germans. Frisians, Franks, Angles, Saxons, Swabians/Suevi. Eastern Germans may be more related to Eastern Europeans and Asians than other Germans. We think of English prime ministers such as David Cameron and Tony Blair as English, despite non-English surnames, and do not think of the Royal family as German, despite their ancestry. TFD (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is genetics and history. What you are talking about is nationality. Unlike ethnicities like English or Russians which were formed a long time ago, Germans formed their own united identity at a later stage, and before that were split into different states, but what united them into one nation was the common history, culture and origin. Jews in Germany assimilated, but they still didn't become of German ethnicity because it's impossible to change ethnicity. In the case of Einstein, he actually identified as a Jew, so he didn't even see himself as German. In the case of Marx, both his assimilated parents were of Jewish ethnicity. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Germans are not genetically homogeneous, and in the examples I provided, Germans in some states may be closer genetically to the natives of neighbouring non-German provinces than they are to other Germans. Northern Germans are genetically closer to Scandinavians, central Germans to northern French and southern English, southern Germans to northern Italians, eastern Germans to Poles, etc. Also, European Jews are closer genetically to Europeans than they are to Middle Eastern or Chinese Jews. Ethiopian Jews appear to have no relationship to other Jews at all. The myth of ethnically pure nationalities is a myth that died out with the end of the Second World War. TFD (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Germans are not homogenous, but the fact is, genetically they are a union of specific Germanic (and a bit of Slavic) tribes which formed the German nation. Jews are a Semitic ethnicity, they were not one of the "tribes" or kingdom which became part of the German ethnicity.

That's a lie. Genetic tests showed that Jews are genetically closer to middle eastern populations like Arabs, Druze and Assyrians then Europeans because for most of their history in Europe Jews lived in isolatted communities (until the emancipation). You can read about it in the Ashkenazi Jews article. Even the Genes Jews do have which are not Semitic are mostly Slavic and not Germanic. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You should avoid terms such as "lie" which is not in the spirit of scholarly collegiality. You are misreading the article, there was a high degree of similarity among Jews in Y-DNA but far less in Mt-DNA markers. These markers were also found to a lesser extent in the host population. In some cases, e.g., Ethiopia, there was no similarity at all. "[B]etween 35 and 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome comes from European descent."[3] You still need to explain why people of German ancestry living in the UK, Holland, France, and Italy, are not Germans. TFD (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If someone doesnt tell the truth it's called telling lies. Claming most of the Jewish genes are non-Jewish is a lie. It's not a matter of different opninions. The research you brought clearly states that the 35-55 might come from European descent, but first of all, it's not sure if it's 35 or 55, or maybe 38? or maybe 45? The fact is, even most of that range falls under 50%. Second, no one said the non-Jewish 35-55 come from Germans. It's mostly Slavic actually (don't forget, though Ashkenazi Jews first settled in Germany and France during their first arrival to Europe, when they left those areas due to the crusades and laws against Jews to Poland and the territories under it's control, like Ukraine and Belarus. There the Cossacs raped many women, and that's mostly where those genes come from. As someone who studied History of the Jewish people in the Tel Aviv University that's a topic I studied a lot about). I don't need to explain it because people of German ethnicity who live in the UK are German and in Italy are Germans, they might be British or Italian by nationality but they can't change their ethnicity. AS I said, Italian-Americans. Even after living in America for many generations and speaking English they are still ethnically Italian and American by nationality becuase there is no such ethnicity called American. Again, there were references about Einstien brough here showing he identified as a Jew on an ethnic level, and Marx didn't have and German roots as far as we know. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxons who conquered Britain are called English not German. The Franks who conquered France are called French, not Germans. The Lombards who conquered Italy are called Italians, not Germans. The West Frisians who live in the province of Friesland are called Dutch, not Germans. The Germanic peoples (Danes, Swedes and Norwegians) who live in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, are called Danes, Swedes and Norwegians, not Germans. But this article is about Germans not Germanic peoples. Your claim about Cossacks btw does not explain why there is such a high prevalence of European mitochondrial DNA among European Jews and is just idle speculation. TFD (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

They are not called Germans because they are not Germans. They were specific Germanic tribes which evolved into certain ethnicities, but they were not Germans as in Germans the ethnic group because that ethnic group didn't exist yet. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Because Germans are not a biological group but a social construct. Being a Frank, Anglo-Saxon, Slav, Jew, Catholic, etc. does not make one a German nor does it exclude one. BTW, at what date did "Germans the ethnic group" come into existence? TFD (talk) 12:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"The Germans (German: Deutsche) are a Germanic ethnic group native to Central Europe."

Contrast this with the first line from the Ashkenazi Jews page.

"Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz"), are an ethnoreligious group who trace their origins to the indigenous Hebrew speaking peoples of Canaan in South Western Asia, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, probably during the early Middle Ages.[5]"

This article is about the indigenous people of Germany, not ethnic minorities who originally came from elsewhere. Karl Marx and Albert Einstein may have been German nationals, but they were not indigenous Germans. It would be analogous to putting Ronald Reagan or Jesse Jackson on the Native American template. They should be removed.Evildoer187 (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

100% correct! Great example. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, but please don't attack Illraute on the basis of his German nationality. This is not YouTube.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are right, I went to far there. It's just for me as a Jew whose family in Germany were killed for being Jews (ethnically, nothing to do with religion) it's annoying to hear someone trying to deny the existance of a whole ethnic group. I don't understand why anyone would do it unless they have a certain political morive. It's like in Syria and Iraq when the government tried to deny the existance of the Assyrian ethnic group because of political reason (to dismiss their claim for an independent country). But you are right I shouldn't have went to the level I went there. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

And if we're gonna bring antisemitism into this, it's worth noting that the consideration of Jews as "simply Europeans who converted to Judaism" has been the official party line of antisemitism (well nowadays they call it "anti-Zionism") for decades now. It's utterly pointless to bring up how the Nazis used their non-Germanic origins to persecute them, because the majority of Jews no longer live in Europe, or identify with it. Rather, the majority of American Jews identify more with Israel than their diasporic host countriesEvildoer187 (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, someone of German descent who lives in the UK, Italy, France etc, is still German in all but a national sense. Similarly, someone who is 100 percent Ashkenazi cannot be an ethnic German, because they are not the same thing. This page is about the German ethnicity, not nationality. Therefore, they don't belong on this page. Jews are more similar to other Middle Eastern populations, according to genetic, cultural, historical, linguistic, and other consensus.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are missing the comparison. Franks from Germany moved to Gaul where they are called French. Franks who remained in Germany are called Franconians. Angles and Saxons who moved to Britain are called Anglo-Saxons or English, those who remained are called Angles and Saxons. Lombards who moved to Italy are called Lombards, those who remained are Suabians. Friesians who moved to Holland are called Friesians, those who remained are called Frisians. English developed from a Low German. Why is an Angle in Angleland (England) English, while an Angle in Germany is German and an Angle in Denmark is Danish, when they are ethically the same people, speaking dialects of the same language if being German is defined by genetic ethnicity? TFD (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You're missing my point. Ashkenazi Jews are not Germans, in the ethnic sense. Those examples you gave are of foreign tribes who gradually merged with native ones in the lands they had settled, thereby creating a new ethnicity altogether. The result is that the modern French population is a amalgamation of Celtic, Germanic, and Latin tribes, the Italians are a confederation of tribes who settled over the centuries, and so on and so forth. No such thing ever happened with Jews in Europe, or anywhere for that matter. This article is about ethnic Germans, not Ashkenazi Jews. So why are Albert Einstein and Karl Marx on here?Evildoer187 (talk) 02:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, considering the purpose of this encyclopedia, how can it be helpful to the reader to call Einstein an ethnic German? Given that ethnicity is a social category, reference to someone's ethnicity should help us better understand the way a person or group of persons function in relation to other people or groups (in addition, of course, to other qualities such as personal character traits, intelligence etc.) and how this influences the courses of their lives. Which label would be more appropriate for this purpose: that of “German” or that of “Jew”? In general, I think, it would be misleading to present German Jews from the Nazi era as ethnic Germans. For these people, the ethnic aspect of their identity had tremendous consequences for their personal and social lives. Calling them ethnic Germans obscures the fact that they were the victims of ethnic cleansing and the participants in an ethnic conflict -even if it was forced upon them, and also upon many of their ethnic German contemporaries- with the German people on the one side and they, the Jews, on the other. Had they been ethnic Germans, their lives would have been very different; the very fact that they were not cost many of them their lives. Iblardi (talk) 08:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong about Germanic tribes. The Friesians for example lived in what is today modern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands centuries before those nations were formed and are closely related to each other and in many cases continue to speak Friesian, which is a Germanic language. They also speak the languages of their host countries. Yet we do not exclude them. Similarly, other Germanic tribes settled in specific areas of what are now separate nations and regional differences still exist. BTW can you provide a date at which Germans, as distinct from Germanic tribes, came into existence? TFD (talk) 13:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't mention Germanic tribes. Did you misplace your comment? Iblardi (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly! Einstein was not Jewish by religion because his religious views were not Jewish, but ethnically he was Jewish. That's why he had to leave Germany and that's why he supported an independent state for the Jews. Marx would have the same destiny like Einstein if he would be alive at the time, which is immigration due to the fact he couldn't stay in Germany due to his ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore he identified himself with Jewish culture and Jewish heritage.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 12:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

What is your definition of a Jew? Is it someone descended from a Jew or someone descended from ancient Israelites? Because if it is the latter, then we cannot know if someone is Jewish because we would need to conduct genealogical or research or DNA testing, but if the former it could include people who had the same ancestry as other Germans. TFD (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

He was an atheist Ashkenazi Jew, had Ashkenazi Jewish parents, and identified himself as a Jew, rather than a German. He considered other Jews, and even the Palestinian Arabs if I recall correctly, to be his brethren. That's a pretty clear indicator of how he felt about himself and his people. Furthermore, it would not be in the best interests of this encyclopedia to conflate Ashkenazi Jews with the countries in which they lived, because they are a separate minority like the Gypsies were. They are not the same people.

You would have a case if either Marx or Einstein were recent converts to Judaism, but it's not so. Karl Marx had brown skin, for Pete's sake, and earlier pictures of Einstein reveal that he had very Levantine features.Evildoer187 (talk) 14:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

OTOH, Walther Rathenau, the other most famous German Jew in the Weimar Republic, wrote, "My people are the Germans and no on else The Jews are for me a branch of the German nation like the Saxons, Bavarians or Wends." The Wends are Slavic Germans. Bavarian nationalists often claim they are not Germans. BTW Einstein rejected German nationality, but accepted Swiss and US nationality. Do you have any sources that he rejected German ethnicity, rather than nationality? TFD (talk) 15:04, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

He clearly refers to the non-Jew (goy) as "the other" in the passage quoted from Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 75. Iblardi (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Rathenau, note that “a branch of the German nation” seems overly interpretive if it is meant as a translation of “ein Deutscher Stamm”, which can be more neutrally translated as “a German tribe”. And although he calls the Germans "his people", he might mean this to be taken in a civic rather than in an ethnic sense. In his 1897 article “Höre, Israel!” he clearly treats the German Jews as a people distinct from ethnic Germans, urging his “Stammesgenossen” (which could be translated as “ethnic brethren”), “das schwärzliche Volk” (as he thinks they are perceived by the ethnic Germans), not to engage in Darwinian “mimicry” in order to merely resemble the “Stammesdeutschen” (=“tribal Germans”, ethnic Germans), but instead to work on the “self-education of a race” (“Selbsterziehung einer Rasse”) by discarding all those “Stammeseigenschaften” (“features of their tribe”) that are hated by their “Landesgenossen” (“compatriots”). Here his ideal of “Germanness” seems to be one of citizenship rather than ethnicity. [4] Iblardi (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Ratnau obviously ment nationality, simply because ethnically he was a Jew, and a big part of the propoganda against him referred to him being Jewish. Einstein never had any Germany ethnicity to begin with to reject it. Do you really don't see that you don't have a case? Jews are a separate independent ethnicity, nothing to do with the Germans on an ethnic level. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

This is sounding a lot like No true Scotsman. siafu (talk) 17:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that Jews are a diaspora group from the Middle East, thus making them a Middle Eastern people? I'm beginning to think that people just don't want to acknowledge it.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No it's more like telling a Scotsman who lives in England that he is ethnically English because he lives in England and speaks English. Or it's like telling Mel Gibson that he is a Native American because he lives in America. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No, its more like calling Gibson a Scotsman because that is where his ancestors lived, along with British those of PMs Cameron, Blair, MacMillan, and Douglas_Hume, while Thatcher was Welsh and Callaghan Irish. No king or queen has been English since 1066, and of course we can exclude English Jews, such as Disraeli and the Barings. But can you tell me the year that German ethnicity began. TFD (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

You are still missing the point. This article is about ethnic Germans. Albert Einstein and Karl Marx are not ethnic Germans, they are Ashkenazi Jews. Therefore, they don't belong on here. Also, according to this, the people we now call Germans have been present in what is now Germany since the Nordic Bronze Age, if not earlier. Jews, on the other hand, were not present in Germany until the early Middle Ages. Do the math.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

If you define German as people whose ancestors lived in Germany in the Nordic Bronze Age then English people, Franks in France and Lombards in Italy are Germans too, but many if not most Germans in Eastern Germany are not Germans because their ancestors came later. So for the fourth time, please provide the date at which Germans began. TFD (talk) 23:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I define Germans as the indigenous population of Germany. Jews are a separate minority, who originally came from the Middle East. As for the English, Franks, and Lombards, they are English, French, and Italians respectively. They merged with the native populations and forged new ethnicities, and their ancestors had been present in those areas since the stone age. The same can't be said for Jews.

And here's what it says about Germanic tribes....

"The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the 1st century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul, as well as Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Central Europe"Evildoer187 (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

At what point do you consider German ethnicity to have started? If it began in the Bronze age, then Angles, Franks, Dutch and Suevi living in Angleterre, Frankreich, the Netherlands and Lombardy are just as German as the Angles, Franks, Deutschlanders and Suevi living in Germany. TFD (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not "just as German" because they merged with indigenous populations in other lands and forged new ethnicities. The result is that those populations have Germanic heritage, even though they are not Germans themselves. This has happened countless times in European history. This never occurred with Jews, who have always been and continue to be a separate group. Would you include Romani people in Germany on this page? How about Turks living in Germany? Evildoer187 (talk) 00:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose a change of the first sentence from: "This article is about Germans as an ethnic group", to "This article is about Germans as a nation and an ethnic group." Problem solved. see: Austrians, for example. --IIIraute (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

They're not part of the German nation either. The Jews are a nation and ethnoreligious group from the Middle East. We'd still have to remove them from this page.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Both were German nationals, period. →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx.--IIIraute (talk) 02:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't mean they are Germans. Jews are a separate nation from the Germans, as well. Would you include a German born Turk on this list?Evildoer187 (talk) 02:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

A fully assimilated, eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant Turkish/Muslim background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, who attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate, while not being able to speak a single word of Turkish? Yes, why not?? --IIIraute (talk) 02:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not? Because he's not of German ethnicity. You are totally confusing ethnicity with nationality. If you would study a bit of sociology you would know that the top level of assimilation is when you marry into the majority group, so as much as they were assimilated they made sure to maintain their Jewish identity. Both Einstein's parents were Jews, same thing about Marx. Getting a noble prize doesnt change your genes or ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Evildoer187, Frisia reaches across three countries, including the province of Friesia in the Netherlands, the district of Nordfriesland and other regions in Germany, and Denmark. They are genealogically related and 100s of thousands retain Frisian languages. Yet they are indigenous citizens of three different countries. How is it that you consider them to belong to three separate ethnicities? And would you consider David Cameron and Margaret Thatcher to be English? TFD (talk) 03:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Because they mixed with the local tribes in each area and developed a separate culture and formed separate identities. In the case of the Jews they married Jews and they kept on identifying as Jews for ethnicity. You were brought quotes above about Einstein's self-identification. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The Frisians did not "mix with the local tribes in each area and develope[] a separate culture". They were the "local tribes" living in what is now modern day Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, which is where they still live, and they continue to call themselves Frisians and 100s of thousands of them continue to speak Frisian. That the kings of Europe chose to draw lines on the map did not change their ethnicity, yet they have learned to speak the languages of their host countries and are citizens. And like the English who moved from Germany to England and may have mixed with the local tribes, the Jews moved to Germany and definitely mixed with the local tribes and even adopted their language, totally losing their own. TFD (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One thing seems clear, this article cannot be about pure ethnicity as you define it. Germany has had numerous immigrants, many of which now pass for German. Its a bit like America, on a smaller scale. --Prüm (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The entire purpose of the article is to provide information to readers about the German ethnicity. The entire page is built around that idea, so I don't think re-phrasing a line or two is going to solve the problem. As it stands, Jews are a separate ethnicity, so they don't belong on this page. We already have an article for Jewish diaspora communities in Central/Eastern Europe.

As for the guy who said that Jews "mixed with local tribes and adopted their language, totally losing their own", that is false. There was no extensive admixture with Germanic tribes at any point in history. Rather, the European components in Ashkenazi Jews are predominantly Mediterranean i.e. Greek and Roman. I'm not saying there is no German ancestry whatsoever, just that it's very marginal. Further, Jewish immigrants to Germany modified their old tongue to accommodate their new surroundings. The result is Yiddish, a pidgin language with heavy influence from their native Hebrew tongue and Middle High German. Lastly, Jews in Germany never became ethnic Germans. They don't share the same history, culture, roots, etc, and they were mostly isolated from the larger German society until the 19th century and even that is debatable. So to treat Jews in Germany as ethnic Germans is inaccurate and misleading. Jews =/= GermansEvildoer187 (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

"This article is about Germans as a nation and an ethnic group." Problem solved. see: Austrians → (Freud), Dutch People → (Spinoza), for example. Einstein and Marx were German nationals →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx. Deborah Sadie Hertz, How Jews Became Germans, Yale University, 2007.[5] --IIIraute (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

You do know that Jews are a distinct nation themselves, right? "The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yehudim Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. " And I'm afraid those changes to the lead don't cut it, because including Einstein and Marx is still tantamount to treating Ashkenazi Jews as ethnic Germans. That would be misleading. Thus far, you've only presented one WP:RS that speaks to the contrary, which gives me good reason to believe it falls under WP:FRINGE.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein and Marx were German nationals, period. It is time to end the discussion. →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx. --IIIraute (talk) 20:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about ethnic Germans, and the rest of it was written with that in mind. Reverting one or two lines in the lead doesn't change anything. Einstein and Marx were Jews, who are a separate ethnicity. They don't belong here.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly - and did you ever consider to read the section called: Ethnicity → [6] -- Guess what - it does include Jews! --IIIraute (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

"The German ethnicity is linked to the Germanic tribes of antiquity in central Europe.[28] The early Germans originated on the North German Plain as well as southern Scandinavia.[28] By the 2nd century BC, the number of Germans was significantly increasing and they began expanding into eastern Europe and southward into Celtic territory.[28] During antiquity these Germanic tribes remained separate from each other and did not have writing systems at this time.[29] By 55 BC, the Germans had reached the Danube river and had either assimilated or otherwise driven out the Celts who had lived there, and had spread west into what is now Belgium and France.[29]"

Does this sound like it applies to Jews? I don't think so.Evildoer187 (talk) 01:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

...wtf! You're wasting your breath!:

"By the Middle Ages, large numbers of Jews lived in the Holy Roman Empire and had assimilated into German culture, including many Jews who had previously assimilated into French culture and had spoken a mixed Judeo-French language.[41] Upon assimilating into German culture, the Jewish German peoples incorporated major parts of the German language and elements of other European languages into a mixed language known as Yiddish.[41] However tolerance and assimilation of Jews in German society suddenly ended during the Crusades with many Jews being forcefully expelled from Germany and Western Yiddish disappeared as a language in Germany over the centuries, with German Jewish people fully adopting the German language.[41] By the 1820s, large numbers of Jewish German women had intermarried with Christian German men and had converted to Christianity.[42] Jewish German Eduard Lasker was a prominent German nationalist figure who promoted the unification of Germany in the mid-19th century.[43]"

Does this sound like it applies to Jews? --IIIraute (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Not really. In order to assimilate, Jews had to leave their Jewish identity behind, usually by way of conversion to Christianity (although religion is only a part of it). Moreover, they obviously didn't assimilate the entire Jewish people in Europe, because it continued to exist long after these events. As far as it is known, Albert Einstein and Karl Marx were 100 Ashkenazi Jewish, not Germanic.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You don't know what you are talking about. Being "Germanic" has nothing to do with ancestry and everything to do with identification with a cu;ltural tradition,that includes language and history. And being "German" has nothing to do with being Germanic, and it hasn't had since 1945. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you don't know what you are talking about. Germanic IS ancestry and it includes common language and history which were formed by people with a similar background which were together in the first place due to the fact they were related. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, and attended a Catholic elementary school and didn't speak a single word of Hebrew. Ethnicity is not equal to genealogy, but also incorporates language, nationality, and culture. --IIIraute (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If you would have any knowledge in sociology you would know that the highest level of assimilation is inter-marriage, and Einstein’s family through all the generations married Jewish (he did it to), which shows even though culturally they were assimilated they didn’t loose their ethnic identity. I love it that you argue with what Einstein himself said about his identity, he always identified as a Jew. His Jewish ethnicity was the reason why he had to leave Germany. He had a German name because centuries before that Jews all around Europe were forced to take local names. Also, if an Italian American took an English name does it mean they are ethnically English or Native American? A big part of what is ethnicity is genes, and weather you like it or not, Jews are an ethnic group, a separate ethnic group, and Jews who lived in Germany were not ethnically German. Einstein and Marx are not ethnically German, they are ethnically Jewish. Assimilation can effect on national identity, not ethnic identity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Some contributors here try to argue that Jews cannot be Germans. This is a counterfactual statement. So, ethnic identities are tried to be constructed, usually based on genes, claiming that one excludes the other. These claims show a stranfe and uncanny resemblance to those perpetuated by the Nazis. Further, just as the claims of the Nazis, they lack any scientific rigor. Most genes are shared by most humans, and there is no genetic marker for being German, Jewish, or whatsoever.

Secondly, by the spurious arguments proposed, Jews cannot be members of any other nationality respectively ethnic group. Interestingly and tellingly, our contributors ignore that Jews would have to be taken from all other similar lists in Wikipedia. This critical point is dodged for the umpteenth time. The uncanny resemblance rears its ugly head again. -- Zz (talk) 15:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews and Germans are separate ethnicities. You don't see how including Ashkenazi Jews on a list of Germans could possibly be problematic? Also, please refrain from these fallacious "Hitler would have been proud" arguments. They are useless here.Evildoer187 (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have a helpful information for you: one can be an Ashkenazi Jew and be of German nationality. It is a statement of fact. According to you, however, Jews and almost everything else are separate ethnicities. So, Jews should not appear on the list of any nation, should they? How come you do not address this point? And yes, certain people would have been proud. -- Zz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about the German ethnicity, not nationality. We already have a page for the Jewish ethnicity, right here. In fact, Albert Einstein is already on it. One cannot be a full Ashkenazi Jew AND be an ethnic German, and to include Marx and Einstein here is misleading. Whether or not the Nazis would have approved is of little concern to me, because my only interest is improving the article.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Either way, I am taking a brief hiatus from Wikipedia. I will discuss this with you further, upon my return.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Why shouldn't you be an ethnic German Ashkenazi Jew? Ethnicies aren't mutually exclusive. You even get ethnic Swedish Xhosa and Scottish Maori. You're pretty free to choose or change your ethnicity any way you like, it's not a fixed quality, unlike ancestry. If Einstein and Marx felt that they were German, they were, and if they didn't, they were not. If they also regarded themselves ethnic Jews, then they were that too. It's as simple as that. Who are you to tell them what they can or can't be, and why would you even have an opinion regarding this? It's just not up to you to decide. I really don't understand how this is even worth any discussion. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you can't choose an ethnicity. You can change a nationality, you can choose a cultural identity, but an ethnicity is largely a matter of genes! You can't change genes! You need to read what an ethnicity is. What you are talking about is nationality. Nationality is not a fixed quality. Einstein never said he felt German, that's the point, he always said he felt Jewish, and even if he wouldn't it doesnt matter because you can't decide on your ethnicity. Ancestry is a more "local" version of ethnicity. I can't believe we have people who don't know basic terminology taking part in the discussion and think they make a point! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

It's so funny to see a German blaming Jews of doing what the Nazis do. Guess what, me and Evildoer187 are Jewish, and read the articles about Ashkenazi Jews and Jews and it clearly states an ethnic group. I don't know what your great-grandfather did on 1941, mine were either fighting for the Soviet army against the Nazis or mudrered at the Holocaust, so watch out who you are blaming in what. You clearly don't know the difference between ethnicity or nationality. Jews can be members of any nationality, nationality is a matter of citizenship, but they can be members only of the Jewish ethnic group, that's why ethnicity and nationality are different terms. A person can be a member of few ethnicities but only if they they have ancestors coming from few ethnicities. Our problem with the Nazis was never pointing out we are a separate ethnicity, race or whatever but the fact that the Nazis were hurting our human rights and tried to destroy us. I had ancestors living in Germany and they considered themselves German by nationality but just like Einstein and many others through all the generations they made sure to marry Jews, think why. 94.0.160.176 (talk) 20:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)