Talk:Ezhava

WHY SHOULD WE USE THE VULGAR PRONUNCIATION- WHEN THE PROUD TONE EXISTS

The evolution of the name "Ezhavar" was from the word from the place "EEzham". And they were called in the past as " Ezhavar". But it was by the British, " the Malayalam Illiterate People" who were incapable for normal pronunciation that word, started telling it as "Ezhava" instead of "Ezhavar". But it is a vulgar pronunciation of that word, and it is not the responsibility of Ezhavar to vulgarity of their pronunciation. We can see that, we are not calling the cast "Nayar" as " Naya OR Nayas", and we don't call the cast "Pattar" as "Patta OR Pattas ". Means the word "Ezhavar" also should be pronounced in the same manner as "EZHAVAR"instead of pronouncing "Ezhava". If the Government documents are the inspiring support to tell the word like that, what we should do is to change first the Government Usage - what was created by the Malayalam illiterate British, and blindly following monkeys .And now a days we can see that, So many families started using their name as word " Ezhavar" with their name.And so many started naming their new born babies also as the same using the word "Ezhavar". Like.... Sajeesh Ezhavar, Unnikrishnan Ezhavar, ramnarain Ezhavar..etc. In Malayalam, there you can find out a meaning for the word of " Ezhavar". But You can not explain the meaning of the word " Ezhava" / "Ezhavas" using the Malayalam Language.

Backward class

The Ezhava community comprises many sub-groups. Has anyone got an official recent source that confirms that all Ezhavas are classified as being Backward Class and that this is so throughout India? My experience is that in situations such as this it is often the case that some subgroups are classified as OBC, for example, while others are BC, and also that their classification varies from one region to antoher. - Sitush (talk) 16:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Ezhava caste basically has two sub-castes - Ckokon(or Chovon) and Thiyya. Thiyya is found in Malabar and has relatively better social position compared to that of chokon in Travancore-Cochin. But both the community members had similar job profiles and hence categorized as Ezhava in the british period. Ezhava as a whole comes under OBC catagory. --AshLey ^Msg 09:07, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but I was asking for sources. - Sitush (talk) 10:07, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Well Thiyya has recorded history before britishers and it is recorded in vakkan pattukal, also beside general classification there has been detailed study of Thiyya community by people like Edgar Thurston, one must also take into account specialist opinion.--Rahulkris999 (talk) 15:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well.. Thiyya is different from Ezhava. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.7.136 (talk) 08:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

References to Ezhava in inscriptions

I tagged some citations that needed additional info a few weeks ago. They are:

1. Evolution of an Ethnic Identity in subcontinent, By K. Indrapala. New Age Publishing House, 1995
2. Paper on Words of identity Of People of Srilanka, By Professor Peter Schalk, Uppsala University Publishing, 2001
3. Ezhava-Thiyya Charitra Padanam, Prof K G Narayanan 1983

Unless someone can actually provide the pages in those sources that specifically refer to Ezhava then I am inclined to delete the section which discusses early references found in inscriptions. I am sure that there are other people than me who are aware that these things are often dubious and that those who study inscriptions often speculate rather than say flat out that a given word of 2000 years ago (or whatever) is definitely the same as a modern word. Unfortunately, it is "flat out" that we need, otherwise we are heading into the realms of original research. - Sitush (talk) 07:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thiyyar POV pushing

Nothing here is written in stone, everything can change. Nonetheless, recently there has been yet another attempt to POV fork and otherwise exemplify an alleged distinction between the Ezhava and the Thiyyar titles. The result of that was not merely a lack of consensus but also a salting of one of the primary targets for these campaigns, as per this log entry. As a consequence of these recent events, I have reverted this contribution.

As per the deletion discussion, if anyone wishes to continue to develop the notion that there is a distinction between the Ezhava and Thiyyar communities then they are welcome to do so. However, the starting point would be to add content to this article that complies with our policies, the most fundamental of which can be viewed here. Should things develop in a manner that is significant then, yes, it may be possible to open a discussion about forking the article. Until that time, please do not disrupt our articles with poor edits. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 00:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Ezhavas and Thiyyas are two different ethnic groups for sure. Even their social standing during pre-independent period was different. Thiyyas of N.Malabar claimed high respect and were eminent warriors. Their rituals and heritage were similar to that of other warrior sectors of Malabar than the Ezhavas of southern kerala. Here are some main points

Ezhavas - Had patrilineal family system, toddy tapping was the main occupation though there were others like ayurveda etc, typical dravidian stock.

Thiyyas - Had Matrinllenal inheritance, mainly warriors or traders, Serpent worship, better social status, meditarenian physical traits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.106 (talk) 10:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

And your reliable sources for this are? - Sitush (talk) 10:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

In the book "Communism in Kerala:A study in political adaptation" by Thomas Johnson Nossiter on page 30 is a source for this claim. Moreover Thiyya from malabar has its own history like the interaction with the british, they have a different concept for ancestral homes, running their own temples, theyyam the ritual form etc and the current article does not cover this. So there is should be a dedicated page if not as a separate caste but for regional and historical point of view. Moreover if you feel that they are the same caste why is it that under the subtitle subcaste further divided into southern kerala and malabar why not club them together and why has it not been flagged for lack of valid references?? --User:Sandeep130.236.236.49 (talk) 00:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Thiyya - Ezhava issue is much more complicated (much of the dispute between users is arising because of inability to understand each other’s position). Although there are differences between Thiyya – Ezhava, this difference has nothing to do with the Thiyya/Ezhava caste specifically. It has more to do with interaction of geography and caste- North Malabar vs rest of Kerala. Native North Malabar families irrespective of their ethno-religious background within this area have maintained distinct practices and superior rital-status compared to their southern counterparts, akin to a sacerdotal supremacy. For instance matrilinial Thiyyas, Virilocal-matrilinial Nayars, Matrilinial-Mappilas, Matrilinial Namboothiris of Payyannur etc of North Malabar, have maintained distinct status and is not unique to Thiyya-Ezhava issue. Multiple historians and anthropologist such Gough, Shneider, Logan, Fawcett, TKG Panicker , Praveen Kodoth etc have all commented on this geographic issue for one or the other castes including Thiyyas and Mappilas. Therefore to portray Thiyyas as distinct from Ezhavas would not be correct per se. Neither would it be correct to see them as one. The “factual-accuracy” lies midway between the two disputing groups of users and hence to come to NPOV – either parties must acknowledge that the other has a point.Hope this helps. VS Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 09:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Subsections moved from the article

I have removed two subsections, viz:

Theories of origin

According to historian C. V. Kunjuraman, the two gods of the Buddhist Ezhavas, namely Cittan and Arattan, are in fact Buddhist Sidhan and Arhatan from Buddhism. T. K. Veluppillai, the author of The Travancore State Manual, believes that during Buddhist ascendancy in Kerala, before the arrival of the Tulu Brahmins, "the Ezhavas enjoyed great prosperity and power" (II, 845). However, he also says that it is very unlikely that the Ezhavas came from Sri Lanka and spread all over Kerala; instead they were the mainstream of Munda-Dravidian immigrants who left Tamil Nadu in the fifth, sixth, and seventh centuries to avoid persecution at the hands of their political enemies.

and

Inscriptions

The first reference to the word Ezhava found in Arittapatti inscriptions of 3rd century BC near Madurai, talks about 'Eelava perumal, chief of Nelveli, has caused the carving of this auspicious cave'. Famous Kilavalavu Jain cave inscriptions of 3rd century BC talks about an ezhavan who built Buddhist monastery there. Another inscriptions of BC 2nd century found near Alakarmalai talks about an ezhava textile trader 'ezhathu theevan athan'.

They have both been tagged as requiring more detailed citations for some time now, and I have some doubts regarding the reliability of some of the sources. - Sitush (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

/* Social and religious divergence */

Unlike other places in India the Caste system in Kerala was very complex and rigid. It is mainly divided in to two groups, the caste hindus or Savarna(Nambudiri and Nair) and Avarna. The higher caste hindus (Nambudiri and Nair) and Syrian Christians treated Ezhavas as untouchables.. A Nair had the right to behead polluting lower castes including Ezhavas immediately..

It will be great if you can read the first reference and page 12 to 14 of the second reference. And I think the matter is very relevant in the context. Dakshinsamudram (talk) 02:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

THIYYAR / THIYYA Thiyyar / Thiyya not a subcaste under Ezhava. it has its own identity and it is a caste itself not a subcaste. The culture, tradition even physical appearance, skin colour completely different from Ezhavas. They are Other Backward Communities thats all one thing common among them. Please delete Theyyam, Izhathu mannanar, and also delete the part which referring people from Malabar, they are thiyyas not Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.18.3 (talk) 02:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 February 2013

Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar have to be removed from the article. the said community is a unique and different community and have very little connection with ezhavas. article have to remove all the references regarding the thiyya community. 122.174.195.192 (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)