Talk:Honorverse

File:The Honor Harrington Universe.PNG

File:The Honor Harrington Universe.PNG

File:The Honor Harrington Universe.PNG was recently removed from the article by someone saying it's WP:Original research.

65.94.253.16 (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't there a map in one of the books? If so, then wouldn't you just need to add references to the image? 65.94.253.16 (talk) 06:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

There are maps in books, yes. Those might have copyright issues though. This map was appearently created by a fan. If it is available somewhere on the web, that would help. I had a look at David Weber's official site, but the map is not on it. A map of the Safehold world is available there at this link. Debresser (talk) 06:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but schematical representations are not original research, if you can reference the diagram to source material. Just as a bargraph is not original research if you have the data it was built from. 65.94.253.16 (talk) 08:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. To quote the policy:

Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy.

As the information in the image has already been published, there's no problem. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I have seen similar maps in the Honorverse books, but this specific one? Debresser (talk) 14:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This one is a melding of maps found in several of the books. Most books only have a map showing one part of this one. The author of this map took all those maps and created the full picture. You could do the same by tearing the pages out of the books and putting them together. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:05, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the map should be safely restored. I think it *was* on the web years ago, when I found it and talked to the author about putting it on wiki. At this point I have no memory where it was; I checked my @: while I still have the emails from the creator (good for confirming the free license) we never mentioned his site in the emails - I guess back then we knew which it was (heck, back then I had my own HH fansite :D, maybe it was hosted on it?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I remember seeing it on a site which was not in English (even thought he map was). Several years ago. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, I prefer to have it also. Debresser (talk) 05:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I went to inspect the website where that map was posted. The website mentioned is a fan-made website. That is not usable as a normal citation. The map still needs a valid citation to elevate it above fan-made into semi-official status.AnimeJanai (talk) 23:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

You folks looking for this link?

• http://harrington.suewebik.net/index.php?/archives/26-Mapy-Honorverse.html

I'd say that there an awful lot of original research required to get from a prose description in the books to a map some fan created. Cheers, Jack Merridew 06:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Jack. This map fits into the category of "original research" and should be removed. However, before removing it, let's have a few more weeks pass by, and if *ahem* the author reposts it in the reasonably official Baen forums or his own website and mentions that it is a "reasonable" (abridged or unabridged) map without errors, then it would be allowable in the Wikipedia article. Since the author is fairly responsive to fans, if this doesn't occur, then it might even be considered a "no confidence" indication from the author. Otherwise, it is a fan's original item and should be removed per Wikipedia rules.AnimeJanai (talk) 06:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I am pretty sure the map was posted there, and discussed - years ago. Instead, since the map is freely licensed, I'd encourage anybody to improve it and/or repost it there for this discussion - the author is not involved in Wikipedia. In either case, as it is the only free map we have, I think it is more useful to keep it rather then to remove it. And frankly, I think the map is as good as about 90% of fan-made semi-accurate historical maps we have... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

It is unfortunate (fortunate?) that we both agree that this fan-made map is more detailed and looks better than the officially published maps. However, this is a fan-made map composited from published prose and other maps (official or fan-made). Wikipedia is not a database of fan-made materials. The accuracy of its content is also based upon the ability to provide a reference. If the reference for this map is from someone such as the author, the author's designated map maker from prior books, or the publisher, then that would be a suitable reference.AnimeJanai (talk) 20:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

It's actually based on maps published in the various Honorverse books, not on prose descriptions. All of the information in the maps can be found in the various published maps in the books. It hasn't been updated in a few years, though, so some of the map information from more recent books isn't included. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

To meet Wikipedia requirements for Verifiability, I have marked the item as needing citation. This is the proper way to resolve challenges to the verifiability of a fan-made item such as the fan-made map. Let's not have an edit war where people assert that material needs no references if it is fan-made. Thank you.AnimeJanai (talk) 22:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The link is in this section. What is your problem? Debresser (talk) 23:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, images don't require a citation. They just need to list the source on the image page itself, which this image does. Your edits are becoming disruptive here. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Slightly off topic, I do think that there should be some inline citation and more source control for images (particularly, amateur made maps). But as my attempts to make it so failed, the current status quo is indeed that we are rather lenient with such images. Not to mention that in this particular case I don't think the image is controversial, or unreferenced, so really, aren't we making a mountain of a molehill here? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that some seem to be making more of this than they should. If we cited it completely, we would be citing about 11 books or so, which seems very excessive to me. The maps in those books don't even have a page number, either. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules state that not everything needs to be cited, so there is no need to have excessive citations. Excessive citations were not requested for the article. The rules indicate any challenged material should be resolved with a citation. Because of this, it is unseemly to delete the citation request rather than providing a citation from a reliable source. This may be a situation where dedicated fans consider an article to be their territory and refuse to allow fan-made material to be challenged for verifiability. Excessive deletion of verification requests could be juried through the existing impartial third party process, but that may polarize people so I will not do that. Nevertheless, in this case, fans chose to have more "stuff" in the article even though it is unverified, rather than a smaller article where challenged material was forced to have a citation. Deletion of verification challenges feels like the proverbial restaurant that claims each year to have zero complaints and lots of accolades (because they threw away all the received complaints). Those of you who have had a lot of exposure to how certain people use their authority to do things may have similar examples of their own. Don't get me wrong, I like the map too, and as the owner of a bunch of hardcover Honorverse books, I can see how some (but not all) of the material came from the few officially published maps. However, my first bias was towards protection of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia of properly referenced items as opposed to Wikipedia having bigger articles. Well, right or wrong, in this case I will accede to majority rule and no longer challenge unverified material in the Honorverse.AnimeJanai (talk) 08:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I am happy we have come to consensus. That is the backbone of Wikipedia. I shall definitely welcome your future contributions. There is a lot to do in the field of sourcing for Weber's books, as mentiond recently e.g. in Talk:Honor_Harrington#April_2010. Debresser (talk) 13:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

He's being facetious. Even if the maps are based partly on descriptions in the books, it's not original research. For this kind of information, you can only use primary sources, including descriptions in the books. There are all kinds of diagrams and maps on Commons which were not solely based on previously-published diagrams and maps. A fair number of them are based on descriptions in text, yet they are all accepted. I could understand your concern if it was obvious the creator of the map had just made it up out of his head, but this is based on the actual content of the maps in the books, and on descriptions within the text. There is no other possible source than the books. It's not like National Geographic is going to have maps of the Honorverse. If you want, AnimeJanai, I can ask David Weber directly about the map, but you probably wouldn't accept that anyway. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I was not intending to be facetious even though you took my comments that way. As for Mr Weber commenting on it, that was what I had hoped for in an earlier comment. That would certainly count as a reference if the author approved it.23:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me people, I'm a late come-er to this discussion. As for the "original research" issue, let me share an urban myth: It's alledged that one of the most well known maps out there, perhaps the very same one that was at the top of the Honorverse article, was literally based upon a napkin that David Weber wrote on in a coffee shop or bar where he was having a discussion with person who ended up creating the map. I _THINK_ (but I can not cite) that there was even an image of that very same napkin posted on the web somewhere. Anyway, I don't know if this comment is/was helpful or not, but I thought I'd put it out there for you.
LP-mn (talk) 18:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The map was removed without any clear comment. I have restored it, it is about as good as any fan-made map can be. It would be great if Baen published a map under a Wikipedia-compatible license, but till then, we have to do with fan made stuff. It is fairly accurate, again, for a fan made map (and we often use historical maps of real world which are even less accurate, too). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 16:21, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Merge from Honorverse timeline

There is unnecessary overlap of content between Honorverse and Honorverse timeline and the timeline is basically the major part of both articles. It would make a better Honorverse article if the Honorverse timeline was merged into here. The new merged timeline could be based on the Post Diaspora dateline with both events and book titles would be subordinate to the PD date. This arrangement would also make it more clear where the events stood relative to each book's initial PD date. An example format is shown below:

• 2064 AD Lunar Revolt against Earth in the Sol System.
• 2102 AD The Diaspora (Humanity's expansion throughout the galaxy) begins on September 30 as Prometheus, the first manned (albeit generational) sublight interstellar ship departs the Solar System. The era of sublight colonization begins.
• 1 PD The first year of the Post Diaspora corresponds to 2103 AD.
• 1652 PD "What Price Dreams?", February 1999, in Worlds of Honor by David Weber
• 1946 PD "Inevitable Solarian Demise". The Solarian League's combined fleet of 236,000 capital ships is beaten by 3 capital ships of the "Deus Ex Machina" series of mother ships from the Manticorean shipyards. Earth surrenders to Manticore within one year.
• 1 PM First year of Pax Manticore. The galaxy is united by the Manticorean philosophy of genetically manipulated life and economic mixture of feudal and corporate capitalism.

AnimeJanai (talk) 08:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I am against this idea. In this article (Honorverse) there should be a short summary of the timeline, which should be in prose. Honorverse timeline is the real timeline, which should read almost like a list of year - event, year - event, without making stringent demands on prose. Debresser (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm against this, too, especially as it would significantly increase the size of the article. It's better to keep it separate as it's only going to get larger with more books being regularly released. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I am somewhat torn. I see why the merger is proposed - and I do wonder if the timeline article would survive the AfD. Of course, I'd preferred to see it properly expanded and referenced - but let's ask ourselves - will it be? When? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there a problem with the Honorverse article being longer? As a "high" importance article, it needs more "content" instead of pointing to content elsewhere. The historical timeline seems to be a natural fit in the Honorverse article. One way to justify the Timeline as a separate article would be to develop it further as a sort of date-oriented concordance of plotted events in the book. But that might be hard since there are only vague ideas of exactly how much time passed between major plot events, so a date corcordance might only be possible one day when Weber releases one himself.AnimeJanai (talk) 00:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

You can be fairly accurate, as Weber regularly includes dates for chapters (especially in the more recent books when multiple things are happening at the same time). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I am opposed to merging in the timeline. First off, the length of the main Honorverse article is just fine. Merging in the timeline will make it a bit long for the casual 1st time reader. 2nd, the timeline is short on detail and needs to be beefed up. IOW, it's not of the same caliber as the main article. Leave well enough alone. LP-mn (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Against merger: As a small part, the Honorverse article has a concise, non-spoiling timeline of the books and anthology stories, useful for deciding which books and stories to read in what order; the authoritative Timeline should be a more detailed chronology, detailing (and spoiling) events within books and stories, to present a detailed Timeline of the series. These come at the topic from different "directions" and should be kept separate. Laguna CA (talk) 07:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Lindskold stories chronology

I think they take place after HotQ, not before Basilisk station... so, about 10 years later on the internal chronology then currently listed. I am pretty sure they take place after the Manticorian-Grayson alliance. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

There is only 2 years between the Lindskold stories and so bumping the first one 10 years forward makes sense.

There are now three Lindskold stories: "Queen's Gambit", "Promised Land" and "Ruthless" (in order of both chronology and publishing date). PL states QG was nine years earlier, R states QG was "over nine years" earlier *and* PL was two and a half years earlier. PL takes place before, R after HotQ. According to the established dates, there are 20 years between QG and HotQ, making a typical Weber numbers mess. :o( Kiwaiti (talk) 19:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Promised Land states early in the story: "Since the Masadan attempt to gain control of Grayson society had been thwarted by a woman" clearly placing this story after "The Honor of the Queen" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eantipa (talk • contribs) 09:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC) ok... disregard the above. We do get a clear placement further on in the story: "But Michael Winton had been Crown Prince for the last nine years" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eantipa (talk • contribs) 09:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Three formerly deleted articles are in my userspace

For those interested in Honorverse on Wikipedia, I've arranged to have three formerly deleted articles recreated in my userspace. Hopefully we can bring them together to notable status. I think referencing would be very helpful. The Weapon and other concepts are at User:Piotrus/Honorverse concepts and terminology, and spaceships, at User:Piotrus/Spacecraft in the Honorverse. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Error with Shadow of Freedom (after A Rising Thunder[8]) listing ???

In the section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorverse#Honor_Harrington_series
There's this entry:
14. Shadow of Freedom (after A Rising Thunder[8])

I thought that SoF was going to be in the Saganami_Island_series.
Shouldn't this entry be moved to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorverse#Saganami_Island_series  ???
(...and NO, I can not prove my comment.)
LP-mn (talk) 03:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps ask on the forum of Weber's website. If your suspicion is confirmed, you can always change it here. Debresser (talk) 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster. The recent pattern has been updates to both spinoff series between each main book. Also the naming convention clearly fits within the Saganami Island series. colorblindpicaso (talk) 09:20, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Not an error: "A Rising Thunder (March 2012) Editing has resulted in a split into two volumes." SoF is the second volume, delayed to release 2/2013 for the 20th(?) anniversary of the Honorverse. Another CoS novel will publish late 2013. The original plan (see some of the interviews with Weber at Baen or his own site(?)) was for Honor to die in battle as Nelson did and her children were to fight Mesa. However, as her death approached, no one (including Weber) wanted to kill her off. Also, Flint needed a big enemy for CoS, so Weber gave him Mesa, tightening the original timeline so there was no time for Honor's kids to grow up and become starship captains. My guess is that SI was a bridge between the two generations of Harringtons, the SI characters being teachers of Honor's kids; and that SI now is dead, though the characters will probably appear in the two main series and possibly in short stories. SI seems to have been displaced (in DW's workload) by the YA series, and certainly coordinating HH, CoS, and SI was a problem. (end guess) Laguna CA (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Title "Wages of Sin"

From a recent post on the Bar, which I rarely visit anymore, but still...

"- David has said, fairly strongly, that he and Eric do not refer to their collaborative books as the "Wages of Sin" series, nor do they really understand why a segment of the fanbase insists on calling them that. Their collective label for that story arc is the "Crown of Slaves" series, after the title of the first book, and the "new thing" that those events inserted into the galaxy which is going to contribute to changing that galaxy for all time. So the possible next book in the story of "20th century" Honorverse is probably best referred to for now as CoS III. " So I would like to ask - what is the source for the "Wages of Sin" subtitle? If there is no, we should change it to "Crown of Slaves". Or at least add it as an alt title for this subseries... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 16:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I concur—change the sub-series name to "Crown of Slaves"; Crown of Slaves (in italics) being the book title.--Dbrukman (talk) 04:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Real World Parallels

This is a suggestion for some new content. Any thoughts? Is this worth including? Markjeff (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

There are some parallels between places in the Honorverse and in the real world of the 18th and early 19th centuries, though these are perhaps best described as "inspirations" rather than being slavisly followed, as noted below.

Honorverse Location	Historical parallel	Comments and differences
Manticore	British Empire	A very close parallel with type of government, politics, navy traditions, attitudes to slavery etc. England and Scotland and never-mentioned planet for Wales in one island or solar system, Ireland nearby. Even Elizabeth's name is a match.
Haven	France	While it has communist overtones, Haven roughly follows the history of the French monarchy, the Terror, and the early Republic. In the early books, several names are puns from French history.
Silesia	The Caribbean	Corrupt little states, pirates running wild, many nations trying to exert influence. Alternatively, on earth, Silesia is a region in southern Poland.
Anderman	The USA	Though it has mostly German names, and a hereditary monarchy, the Empire fits many of the same roles that the US did. However, there is no colonial relationship between Manticore and Anderman, so Germany is more appropriate.
Sidemore	Bermuda	A remote station providing an anchor on the edge of a chaotic area (Silesia).
Grayson	Portugal ?	A close ally, forced together by common enemies, with a different religion and some degree of prejudice.
Solarian League	Russia?	This one is not so clear. Any suggestions? There was a long discussion in a Usenet group on this. Consensus is that it doesn't refer to anything in Elizabethan times, though Imperial China was mentioned. Suggestions were that it is an analog of Byzantium circa 1200, or USA circa 2050, among others. Russia was big, but nobody thought of it as technologically or otherwise world-dominant.

This would have to be sourced. Debresser (talk) 17:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

A problem is that DW has stated [Baen interviews?] that at least some of these were red herrings (false trails) to lead readers astray so he could surprise them. The French analogs to Haven were explicitly stated to be intentionally misleading, though later alliances do have historic parallels. Silesia could as easily be the East Indies, everything from Ceylon to Taiwan. I don't see the US in its imperialistic times as being as tentative as the Andermani--I would be interested to hear supposed parallels--Portugal???) Solarian politics are parallel to Poland, at least in myth (I haven't seen, in a brief scan, the single fiefdom veto, and I've been told by Poles it's a myth.) I don't see Grayson as a parallel to Portugal, considering Henry the Navigator; as stated in the books, I think it's a parallel to Japan, especially the Meiji Restoration when the diamyos were suppressed in favor of the Emperor. Laguna CA (talk) 05:41, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Shadow of Freedom ARC is out

[1]. Probably worth mentioning. PS. Based on the blurb, it seems more like a Saganami Island series arc than the main HH one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 19:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

movie

some time ago i readed that movie from honorverse is planed, event david weber confims it, anyone have info at which time is planed shoting ? 88.102.84.189 (talk) 13:53, 13 February 2013 (UTC)