Talk:Christ myth theory

To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions

Use this section to report false, misquoted, and misrepresented citations, and to explain subsequent revisions.

Modern scholarship has generally dismissed these analogies as without formal basis

The sentence "Modern scholarship has generally dismissed these analogies as without formal basis, and a form of parallelomania laden with historical errors" does seem to be excessively POV given that the sources that support this statement at best suggest that those individual historians reject Christ Myth Theory for those reasons but not historians in general. Could we identify which historical errors (if any) are involved in this theory?

The claim about parallelomania does not appear from a 'mainstream historian' but from the Jesuit Preiest Gerald O'Collins. It seems to be somewhat dishonest to attribute to 'historians in general what are in fact the words of a single priest!

And could somebody even explain to me what is meant by an analogy lacking "formal basis"? This seems to be an odd and somewhat arbitrarily applied criteria. --81.157.90.31 (talk) 00:05, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This article is so bad it's funny. This is just one example among many of the problems this article has and, unfortunately, is exactly the sort of article one is going to end up on an American-centric, crowd-sourced format such as this. By the looks of it, it's going to need to be rewritten from the ground up by someone with an actual background in the appropriate fields (i.e. mythology, history of religion, Greek religion, early Christianity, and Semitic religion).

For example, it's perfectly mainstream in academia that Dionysian ritual and myth influenced early Christian material. Isn't this "Christ myth theory"? And yet it has been "dismissed"? Where does the "myth theory" begin and end? And who decided that comparative mythology no longer applied to the figure of Christ? Who bestowed this special status and why? What is the agenda of the page as it is written, exactly? Meanwhile, these statements do need to go until they are rephrased to the point of comprehensibility. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I should note that there are tables producing comparisons between tales of Jesus in early Christian mythology and earlier material on Dionysus in modern university level introductory texts to Greek mythology, for example. This isn't the only example of a well known motif in the Classical world strongly paralleling and far pre-dating the existence of Christian material. Elsewhere parallels are drawn between Prometheus's crucifixion-like binding by Zeus (this particular angry sky god action due to Prometheus acting as savior of mankind) in Prometheus Bound (415 BCE) and to Christ's crucifixion. Comparative mythology is alive and well. It has advanced well beyond the arguments of Müller and Frazer, despite what this article and related articles would have the reader believe. Using a "dying and rising god" straw man seems to be a tactic employed here, as well as mentioning "Christ myth theory" as a large body of theories and then dismissing it over and over as the rejection of the existence of Jesus as any sort of historical figure.

I'm an ocean away from my library, but this material to be introduced is crucial to this article—Christianity being essentially a product of Hellenic society—and I'll be able to drum up sources as time allows (there are plenty). Meanwhile, I urge readers to not let this article turn into an apologetic "'Mainstream scholars' say that Christ was exactly as he appears in the bible and no outside influences contributed to our understanding of Christ in modern Christianity!" :bloodofox: (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

A couple of comments. First, I think it worthwhile to note that I am in the process of getting together not only lists of articles, but also named subarticles, of all those articles in the first and second editions of the Eliade Encyclopedia of Religion. Many of the topics you mention, as well as a number of others, are discussed somewhere in some of those articles, and I have noted that many of those articles don't even seem to exist here yet. Second, as per previous discussion, this is more or less a separate, distinct, topic itself, which merits a separate article, and this title is probably among the better titles for that article. Third, a lot of the things you discuss are probably of what might be called a "broad topic", like sky gods and dying and resurrecting gods, which are probably more relevant to other articles here or not-yet-here, and probably shouldn't be in this article for WEIGHT reasons, etc. Yeah, a lot of our content regarding all religious material tends to be written from the perspective of a single religious grouping, rather than from the perspective of the academic study of religion. But, unfortunately, there aren't that many people around here who took "history of religions" type courses in college, and I think I might be one of the few who did. When I can get that material, and some other material, finished, and maybe help develop some of the content on those topics that we don't have yet, that will help a lot. But, believe me, it takes a while to go through reference books page by page like seems to be the best way to proceed in developing such lists. John Carter (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Need for a definition of "Christ myth"

I've shortened the lead sentence so it reads Christ myth "is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed." I did this because the article as it stands is including a great deal of very mainstream scholarly discussion as "Christ myth" - for example, the majority of modern scholars would seriously question the virgin birth stories in Matthew and Luke, but they aren't mythicists.

We really, really need a decent definition. There are four references cited at the end of that first sentence. The first, Ehrman, should be reliable but unfortunately I can't access it on google books. The second is a long web posting by G.A. Wells which I don't think is useful - he's speaking only for himself, and I can find a concise definition in it anyway. The third one, Theissen, also has no definition of Christ myth-theory, and in fact doesn't even discuss it in the same sense as this article. The last one, Voorst, looks promising, but the range of pages given is 7-11 and page 7 has been dropped for me. Nevertheless, at the top of page 8 (first page I have from that range) he seems to be saying that Christ-myth is the position that Jesus is a completely mythological figure.

Anyway, I think we need a good definition before the article can be written. I've found one in Van Voorst's 2002 entry in the encyclopedia "Jesus in history, thought and culture" (page 658) - it's now the 5th source referenced at the end of the first sentence, but I'd like to drop the other four and make this our starting point.PiCo (talk) 03:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

As the Definition link in the infobox shows this is not the first time this issue has come up and as that long mess shows there isn't any kind of agreement as to the exact definition of the Christ myth theory. Using one author (Voorst) to try and define this would just open up a POV can of worms that no one really wants.

Besides as the article points out Voorst's claim that Wells' Jesus Myth was not a Christ myth book is challenged by Doherty, Carrier, and Eddy-Boyd who all state it is a Christ myth book even though the book expressly states the hypothetical Q gospel is based on a historical Jesus.--216.31.124.157 (talk) 06:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

In a recent exhaustive elaboration of the position, one of the leading proponents of Jesus mythicism, Earl Doherty, defines the view as follows: it is “the theory that no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed, that Christianity began with a belief in a spiritual, mythical figure, that the Gospels are essentially allegory and fiction, and that no single identifiable person lay at the root of the Galilean preaching tradition.” In simpler terms, the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity.

— Ehrman 2012, p.12

--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we need a solid set of quotes regarding definition(s). Right now it's a total mess that implies that "Christ myth theory" must deny any historical basis for Jesus. For example, it's quite possible to regard Jesus as having been a historical figure with a lot of motifs from myth and folklore stacked up around him, see, for example, the Jefferson bible, and then there's discussion in classical studies regarding how much the cult of Dionysus influenced the figure of Jesus—but this doesn't quality as "Christ myth theory"? If not, then what? :bloodofox: (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Price for example believes that some of the gospel narrative is based on narratives about Simon bar Giora and Jesus ben Ananias while the preaching is simply a historicisation of various Cynic and rabbinic teachings that were floating around at the time. Neither of these historical figures can be usefully said to have been the historical Jesus. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Disagreed. There seems to be an assumption, which I believe is not warranted by the evidence. This title, which I admit is flawed, is the one that has, over the years, been agreed on as apparently the most neutral and common title for this particular topic, which is the academic discussion of whether or not the allegedly historical Jesus was in fact historical. It seems to me that other editors are trying to read into the title something about how the article should, by its title, incorporate content relating to other mythic elements which may or may not exist in the academic literature, which is a separate matter entirely. I realize that some might take this as being really a fine point, but this is more about the "Christ myth" theory, that Jesus and/or the religious Christ were a myth which may or may not have had any or much historic basis, than about another topic which is similar. However, that similar topic, about the possible mythic origins of some of the aspects of the Jesus story as it is related to us, is another matter. I am not yet myself sure that separate topic has ever been demonstrated to be notable (but I assume it is) or whether those mythic elements would necessarily be best placed here as opposed to elsewhere. That article might better be titled "Myths in the Christ story," or "Theories of Myths in the Jesus story," or something similar. Yeah, honestly, if there were such a separate article, I might myself consider moving this one to some other title myself, to make for more easy indicators of what content goes where. But that is a separate matter. This particular topic, as currently structured, is apparently notable enough, and has received enough independent attention, to merit an article somewhere, and this title was the one which was determined appropriate. If others wish to create other articles on those other topics, I wouldn't in any way disagree - in fact, I think there are a lot of subjects relating to religion of all sort we don't have covered yet. But it would probably be best to give some idea of what other topics exist first, and what titles they might have, before changing this one's title. John Carter (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the definition shouldn't be so wide as to include theories that merely posit mythological elements, as that includes basically all critical scholars. I was merely trying to say we shouldn't make it so narrow that it excludes people like Price. Martijn Meijering (talk) 07:03, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

On one of the many previous occasions that this issue arose, the article John proposes, "Myths in the Christ story", was in fact created. It was named Jesus Christ in comparative mythology. The creator, user:Dbachmann, hoped that the creation of a separate article would clear up the distinction between the two topics. Unfortunately the new article became something of a dumping ground for idiosyncratic and fringey theories of various kinds. However, it has always been clear that this article is about the "non-existance hypothesis", as it has also been called, and that the title is simply the most commonly used name for this hypothesis. The evidence for this has been repeatedly provided in the archives. It's also worth noting that altering the topic in the way bloodfox and others before him have tried to do clearly serves an ideological agenda, and is overwhelmingly promoted by editors who are sympathetic to the theory and want it to seem more reasonable and mainstream. Arguing that all allegedly "legendary" or "myth like" features of the Jesus story are properly dealt with under this heading is a way of changing the topic to achieve that result. However, it is clear that sources do not use the phrase "Jesus-Myth" or "Christ-Myth" in this way when the phrase is a proper noun describing a defined position on the life of Jesus. Most non-fundamentalist scholars argue that Jesus' life has been described in a way designed to fit a symbolic narrative, and may even use the word "myth" in the same way as we speak of the myth of the Blitz, for example. But that's not the name of a theory. It's a separate issue. When Michael Grant says "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.'", he is using "Christ myth theory" as a proper noun, to name the theory that is the topic of this article. He is not saying that scholars have again and again "answered and annihilated" the view that there are mythic aspects to the Gospel narratives of Jesus' life, a view he would support. Paul B (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

And, FWIW, I think it worth noting that although Michael Grant was what might be the first professional author of academic works not employed at a university, his work is still very highly regarded, with as I remember his biography of Saint Peter being counted, for instance, the best work on that subject of the 20th century, which is a fairly good commendation. John Carter (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for your input.

So there seem to be two positions,the first that this article should be limited to the idea that Jesus never existed at all, the other that it should be about the myths etc that grew up around a historical Jesus.

The second seems to me be covered by the existing article Jesus Christ in comparative mythology - or at least it should be. That would let this article focus much more effectively on the first definition. There's also the article Historicity of Jesus to consider - like JC in comparative mythology, it has a section on Jesus as myth, and there's a lot of unnecessary repetition going on. So my suggestion now is to restrict this article to Jesus-never-existed, with Jesus-lived-but-Christianity-has-a-lot-of-myths for the other material. Martijn Meijering, since you're the major person wanting to include the second type of material in this article, how do you feel about that? PiCo (talk) 08:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I explained myself badly. Like you I'm against a broad definition that includes anybody who believes there are some mythical elements, because that is so broad as to be useless, as you pointed out. I just want to qualify it a bit so that it should not exclude those who believe it contains some reworked material based on historical figures like Simon bar Giora and Jesus ben Ananias. Wells' later work is a more difficult case, since he believes the Q material does go back to a Galilean teacher. I think that should fall outside the definition, but Wells' changing view should still be mentioned as relevant to the discussion. I think Paul Barlow was the major proponent for the broader definition, but I can't find his contribution right now. Has he deleted it? Martijn Meijering (talk) 09:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

PiCo, the problem is if Jesus Myth theory is accurate the term "Christ Myth theory" or its synonym has been used regarding people who were willing (Robertson and Drews) or did accept (Frazer) the existence of a flesh and blood Jesus in the 1st century but did not accept the Gospels as an accurate description of the life of that man as well as those who say there is no flesh and blood Jesus to be found. So that just mean we are going to have more POV issues on this article.

Mmeijeri, I understand your concern but Wells' current view would be Christ myth by the definition given for John Robertson ("The myth theory is not concerned to deny such a possibility. What the myth theory denies Christianity can be traced to a personal founder who taught as reported in the Gospels and was put to death in the circumstances there recorded") or by Walsh (1998) and Dodd, C.H. (1938) where the Jesus myth starts first and "reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name" are added later.

The problem is that the term "Christ myth theory" and all its synonyms have been applied in different ways by different authors to the point that IMHO it has really lost any real meaning. If you want to preserve NPOV you can't cherry pick which author's definitions and-or views you use and which you chuck out a window. For example, if you take Schweitzer as the definitive defender of the Historical Jesus position in the early 20th century you are also stuck with Schweitzer putting Frazer ("My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth") in the "who contested the historical existence of Jesus" category as late as 1931.--216.31.124.161 (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2013 (UTC)