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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 208.54.40.177 (talk) at 14:25, 9 September 2013 (VSHL near if not a C class article now. I will ignore any accusations or attempts to bait.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Virginia Society for Human Life

Virginia Society for Human Life (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Non-notable state affiliate, nearly all mentions in reliable sources are routine announcements (paid listings?) and trivial pull-quotes in articles that are about events. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete or merge/redirect to National Right to Life Committee (an appropriate destination because this is a state affiliate of that organization). This organization seems to be associated with several notable topics, but I don't see evidence of notability independent of those topics -- and notability is not inherited. The article content that is actually about the organization is self-sourced or sourced to dead URLs. The article cites a Washington Post article about Virginia's abortion law, but it turns out that this organization is not mentioned in the article (at least not that I can find). The article also has some third-party content about a federal lawsuit that the organization filed; the decision in the case may be notable in the context of US law for nonprofit organizations, but this organization appears to have had little (if any) role in the decision. Additionally, my Google search finds indications that this organization endorsed certain political candidates -- some of the candidates and elections are undoubtedly notable, but this organization's endorsements of those candidates don't make the organization notable. Notability is not inherited, and this organization lacks notability of its own. --Orlady (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added "merge" to my !vote. I note that this organization is already briefly mentioned in the proposed destination article. --Orlady (talk) 13:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Virginia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable enough for the NYT at [1], [2], [3], [4]. thus passing my "If the NYT mentions a non-NY organization in a non-trivial way in multiple articles, the organization is sufficiently notable for Wikipedia. [5] mentioned as the primary plaintiff in a major legal case in an RS book. [6] a minor RS book mention. In fact, it appears to be in several hundred book mentions. [7] shows the importance of the law case. In short - easily passes the Wikipedia notability guidelines, and the number of sources well ought to have been noted by the persons proposing deletion. It is stated in multiple sources to be the first such group, which does not make it a "non-notable state affiliate". Questia finds five books which are RS for the purposes of Wikipedia, and a score of articles mentioning the group. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • See, I have access to those NYT sources, and I think it's extremely disingenuous of you to claim that a reference is non-trivial when most other users can't check for themselves. Users interested in those sources should know that Collect evidently considers a one-sentence mention in a longer article on something else "non-trivial". Most would disagree. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Um -- do you really think this page is designed for personal attacks? Such argumentation rather weakens your case entirely, and reduces the opinion others might have of you. I provided the proper links, and trust that others actually have mouses on their computers to see the articles. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think this page is designed for the discussion of the topic and the sources, and since the sources are paywalled, it's not easy for most users to tell that you have an extremely idiosyncratic definition of "non-trivial." Now they know, and we can all proceed with more information. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • And calling someone "extremely disingenuous" is what then? Cream cheese? That sort of comment is a comment on the editor, and not on the sources. Meanwhile, no one disputes now that it [asses GNG with flying colours. And I would note that there are literally thousands of refs using the New York Times, and that since no one would doubt that it is a "reliable source" your accusation that I deliberately shoes a "paywalled" source is risible. I would also note that the book sources, which you seem to elide, are not "paywalled." Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Breathe. Keep calm. I dispute that it passes GNG, since I have a definition of "non-trivial coverage" that excludes single sentences - yes, a single sentence is trivial even in a reliable source like the NYT or a scholarly book. I think we could all have saved some time if you'd simply explained in your comment that you have this unusual view of "non-trivial," so that no one would wrongly assume that a source they couldn't personally access did in fact contain significant coverage of the group. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                • I note you did not take back your personal attack on me for being "extremely disingenuous" for daring to use The New York Times as a source. "VSHL" is at the center of a major legal case - and your apparent argument is that Marbury would not be "notable enough." Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                  • If reliable sources had given VSHL the amount of coverage they give Marbury (in what is, understatement, a more important case), this AFD wouldn't exist. There are any number of parties in much, much more important cases who don't have articles because the sourcing isn't there - Orlady's mention of WP:NOTINHERITED is relevant. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:59, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                    • For the record, what I learned about this organization from those four New York Times references was that: (1) this organization, described as "Roman Catholic-oriented", had testified against passage of a liberalized abortion law that Virginia enacted in 1970 and (2) in 1980 this organization asked the Virginia state government and the U.S. federal government to prevent the opening of the first U.S. in-vitro fertilization clinic, but were told "no". (Three of the articles are about the second item.) --Orlady (talk) 17:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per references noted above; passes WP:GNG. StAnselm (talk)23:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/Redirect per WP:NGO. It's a local organization and while we can confirm it exists and it may meet GNG, it isn't recommended. Lack of widespread coverage raises the specter of effectively evaluating WP:UNDUE, a very important consideration when dealing with activist organizations. Merging it to the court case might make sense if that's the major cause of notability and it's a WP:BLP1Eish situation.166.147.88.49 (talk) 00:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Collect's sound analysis. The organization predates the national group it later affiliated with and has notability independent of its association with that group. Oldest organization of its type and plaintiff in important legal case are distinct claims of notability, so the BIO1E analogy is inapposite. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 10:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Collect. GregJackP Boomer! 01:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Collect, StAnselm and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. (What Wikipedia needs is a rule that prohibits agenda-driven editors from deleting, or nominating for deletion, articles about people or organizations they don't like.) --108.45.72.196 (talk) 03:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*Comment, no, what Wikipedia needs is a rule that prohibits pointless "per nom" votes being used in a deletion discussion— all it has instead is this guideline. Are you familiar with these guidelines? Also: I don't believe the nominator's reason for nominating for deletion was "I don't like it"— that would have been a violation of this guideline, which the nominator probably read. KDS4444Talk 06:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (but be sure not to salt) - First, the article creator's account has been suspended indefinitely as a sockpuppet. Article should have been speedily deleted per CSD:G5 and not even discussed here (but I guess that didn't happen for whatever reason, and it is no matter now). Second, I have gone over all of the references included in the actual article— all have either failed verification, are primary sources, are dead links, or say nothing about the organization in question (see my tags). It's almost like the person who added them wanted this article to get nominated for deletion. If other editors have other published third-party sources that they would like to add to the article, I would strongly encourage them to do so, paywall or no, so that the article can stand a chance at survival— and if you aren't willing to add them to the article, then... then why are you here? I am moving for deletion, but I believe that the article's subject may some day meet the criteria for notability (if it does not already)— the article's title should be readily available for an article if/ when that day comes, so I recommend: be sure not to salt if deleted (no one is proposing that, I know, but just as a statement). KDS4444Talk 05:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FYI to User:KDS4444, CSD:G5 calls for deletion only if the creation of the article creation was a violation of the user's block or ban. --Orlady (talk) 13:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. This is basically a state chapter of a national organisation. It being mentioned here and there in sources isn't, therefore, enough for it to get a standalone article. Just the same as we don't normally need articles for individual Scout troops, branches of Starbucks etc etc. Formerip (talk) 12:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/Redirect to National Right to Life Committee per Formerip's analysis (and per Orlady, too). It appears the most reasonable outcome beyond the opposite agendas and when a compromise is so easy, I don't see the need to fight. Cavarrone 05:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it's a weak article and needs a lot of work but I don't think that's a reason for deletion. A lot of the "delete" arguments seem to me to be pointing out the weaknesses in/problems with the article and don't really put forward a sensible case for deletion. Tigerboy1966  00:50, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It is historically significant as it is the Oldest Right to Life Organization in the Country according to several sources including the Standard News Wire. It needs more work but that does not constitute a reason to remove it. It is also notable given all the coverage it receive in the press and legislative activities it is involved in Virginia. It is also a well known organization in Virginia. The article is also close to being a C class article now.208.54.40.177 (talk) 07:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)— 208.54.40.177 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment. Additional refs:
  1. Lawsuit planned to stop clinic opening by VSHL. "'Test-Tube' Clinic Approved". Science News. 117 (2): 23. Jan. 12, 1980. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. VSHL intervened in a case involving a newborn baby. Culliton, Barbara J. (Apr. 11, 1975). "Intensive Care for Newborns: Are There Times to Pull the Plug?". Science. 188 (4184): 133–34. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  3. VSHL first state-wide organization formed. Risen, James (1998). Wrath of Angels: The American Abortion War. Basic Books. p. 19. ISBN 9780465092734. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  4. VSHL first state-wide organization formed. Michael L. Coulter, Richard S. Myers, Joseph A. Varacalli, ed. (2012). Encyclopedia of Catholic Social Thought, Social Science, and Social Policy: Supplement. Scarecrow Press. p. 308. ISBN 9780810882669.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)
  5. VSHL first state-wide organization formed. McBride, Dorothy (2008). Abortion in the United States: A Reference Handbook. ABC-CLIO. p. 119. ISBN 9781598840988.
  6. Significance in Virginia politics. Feldman, Glenn (2005). Politics and Religion in the White South. University Press of Kentucky. p. 258. ISBN 9780813123639.
  7. Virginia the birthplace of the religious right. John Clifford Green, Mark J. Rozell, Clyde Wilcox, ed. (2003). The Christian Right in American Politics: Marching to the Millennium. Georgetown University Press. p. 44. ISBN 9781589014299.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)
  8. How VSHL vets canidiates. Aistrup, Joseph A. (1996). The Southern Strategy Revisited: Republican Top-down Advancement in the South. University Press of Kentucky. p. 152. ISBN 9780813119045.
  9. Use of negative campaign ads in Virginia gubernatorial race. Karen S. Johnson-Cartee, Gary Copeland, ed. (1991). Negative Political Advertising: Coming of Age. Psychology Press. pp. 134–35. ISBN 9780805808346.
  10. On of first anti-abortion groups founded, in 1966. Doan, Alesha (2009). Opposition and Intimidation: The Abortion Wars and Strategies of Political Harassment. University of Michigan Press. p. 71. ISBN 9780472023028.
  11. Opposition to test-tube babies. Wishner, Nan (May 13, 1980). "Human life society outlines opposition to test tube babies". The Free Lance-Star. p. 28.
  12. Opposition to test-tube babies in Massachusetts. McLaughlin, Loretta (Mar. 9, 1982). "Mass. lawmakers hear arguments in plan to allow test-tube babies". Boston Globe. p. 1. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  13. Intervention in newborn baby case. Colen, B.D. (Feb. 10, 1975). "Agony with no hope: Baby was doomed from birth". The Citizen (Ottawa). p. 4, Women's news. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
These are only a few of the literally hundreds of sources available for this organization. It is clearly notable for a number of reasons, not the least of which is widespread coverage in newspapers and books. I didn't even have to get into Hein, EBSCO, Lexis, etc., to find these. AGF, I can only conclude that Roscelese failed to conduct her WP:BEFORE checks for sources, as I know that she would not nominate a notable subject for deletion on political viewpoint grounds. I'm sure that she will exercise greater care in the future. GregJackP Boomer! 12:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But showing that there are sources, particularly when those sources are not primarily about the topic, is not always enough for a standalone article. For example, there are plenty of sources on Pippa Middleton's bum. However, we do not have an article about it. Instead, we have one article covering all the constituent parts of Pippa Middleton. What I am not seeing is any source that indicates that a separate article is needed in this case, as opposed to putting whatever encylopaedic information there may be in the broader National Right to Life Committee article. Formerip (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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