Talk:Luxury car

• /Archive1: December 2005 - March 2006
• /Sam's referencing demands 22 March 06

I took out "geriatric" and wrote "American" instead, since it sounds degrading and unprofessional. Lithdoc 20:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

In what country is this a legal term? Rmhermen 00:56 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I believe its some sort of legal term in the United States, both for tax and insurance purposes. But, then again, I am a lifetime supporter of the internal combustion boycott; so I don't have a car and don't really know. Pizza Puzzle

This is a strange little article, really just a stub, and needs revising. I don't know why sports cars are listed here, and I doggone sure wouldn't call a Humvee one. "Luxury car" in the US, as far as I know, just refers to a vehicle marketed to buyers who favor comfort over economy or performance. I've never heard of a luxury car tax. There is a gas guzzler tax, but it usually falls on performance models. RivGuySC 03:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The luxury was removed by the Clinton Administartion and the Gas Guzzler Tax applies to all gas guzzling cars regarding whether or not luxury. Gerdbrendel 02:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Who made up these standards?

I find it hard to believe that some of the "makes" listed fall under the "Luxury Category." Chrysler, Buick and Volvo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.233 (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Paying for the Emblem (BMW example)

"For example, because of its prestige, the BMW 3 Series might cost more than the same car if it was sold under a non-luxury marque"

• I think this is the least appropriate example to give. The engine technology, no front-wheel drive and overall build quality make the 3 series (and probably all BMW's) one of the (if not "the") top cars in its segment, regardless of the badge. An example about platform-sharing cars would be more meaningful; like one about "prestige" Audis and their significantly cheaper cousins Skodas, [despite the almost same build quality, or one about a Jag X-Type and a Mondeo or Mazda 6. 85.108.52.116 12:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

See Veblen good. That the BMW 3 Series is superior to the competition is your opinion, and we can't have opinion on WP (including those of press reviewers' unless they're citing facts). The BMW plaque does add to the price becuase of BMW's image, whether that's a justified image or not. Pricing and prestige may have little to do with the acutal quality of the product. Hypthetically, if Skoda was to build a car as good as the 3-Series, it would still cost less-despite the same quality. BMW has an image and that image drives up demand, and thus price. How don't get me wrong, I am a luxury car owner myself and do beleive that there is a world of difference between luxury and non-luxury cars, but I also know that a certain desirable "brand" image drives up the price. Signature^brendel 15:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I know what a Veblen good is, i'm an economist myself :) You're right, we're are all in the same game, willing to pay more for some particular badge (I'm considering buying an A4 - a car not actually better than the Skoda Superb materially). I don't deny the existence of the "BMW badge premium" on the price of a 3 series. What i'm trying to point out is that a 3 series car is one of the least appropriate examples to give here. You say "...unless they're citing facts"; well if you really know about cars (the technical aspects) you'll understand i'm talking about facts. The examples I proposed are plainly stronger examples because the cars I mentioned there are technically identical. Again, I don't deny the effect of the badge on a car's price, but the badge is not the only reason behind the price difference; "if Skoda was to build a car as good as the 3-Series...", well it can't or at least won't.. :) - By the way, we don't really disagree, right?! Mine is just a tiny suggestion. 85.107.25.15 20:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, the BMW 3-Series might not be the best example, even though the concept still aplies to it. Okay, we can also use the Audi A4 if you think its more appropriate. BTW: The things is that the word "best" is always kind of POV, yes you cite facts, like the decibel noise level, etc... but still best depends on the consumer's preverences. So, as we agree on the badge effect I replaced BMW w/ Audi. Regards, Signature^brendel 21:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree.. :) Thanks for the nice discussion by the way.. 85.108.54.73 19:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Archiving of parts of the discussion page

This discussion page will, to say the least, make a very undesirable imprssion on visitors. I would hereby like to delete or archive it. Any objections, or thoughts? Thank you. Signature^brendel 06:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about that... I agree, it wouldn't come out great for readers. I was going to have it archived for length anyway. I think it would be best to archive it, in the chance that someone else might have a similar discussion. So, I vote archive. How do you feel about it? I hope you have no hard feelings in this wiki-editting war. I was trying to just make the article more encompassing and legitimate. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings... in case I did. Zouf 21:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, archiving is the best thing to do. Regards, Signature^brendel 00:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Sections with references

The sections with references are okay. They can be included. But the other statements in this article are illegitimate and need immediate attention. Samstayton 01:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

All lists of vehicles are refernced. There is reference to prove that the Entry-level segment starts and ends at the indicated tresholds and we have a complete list of all entry-level luxury, mid-level luxury as well as high-end and ultra-luxury vehicles and the guidlines by which to define these segments. I think I have addressed all your concerns. If you have any further questions please reply below. Thank you. Best Regards, Signature^brendel 02:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

No, this article needs all the references, which have not been provided. This article is illegitimate and should be deleted. Samstayton 02:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Deleted? Just because it needs some references doesn't mean it needs to be deleted, you know. --ApolloBoy 02:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, besides I'm still trying to gather more refs that I'll add. Thank you. Regards, Signature^brendel 04:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Please be more specific. You have to discuss the points you made, point by point. Okay you said there is nor reference for the BMW 5-Series being mid-level but there is. We have defenition of what Mid-level mean, between $40k and $60k right. So if you go to BMW.com you'll find that the 5-Series mtaches that category. Alrighty? Then you said the statement that a top-of-the-line 5-Series (M5, which well is actually its own model) might reach up into the High-end segment is unrefernced, but it isn't. Go to BMW.com and you will see how expensive the M5 gets. See, the 5-Series is an example, but the status of all vehicles mentioned is referenced. Please tell me how your concern have not been addressed poroperly and please be specific. You might find it to be easiest if you reply to the comments I made regarding your 16 points above. We gotta go trhough this point by point if you want to make this a better article. Also one template is enough, eh? And no we don't need to use footnotes for every statement like you did for the X-Type. We just need some general refs at the bottom of the article. Thank you. Best Regards, Signature^brendel 02:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

SAAB AND VOLVO NOT LUXURY CARS.........?

WHY SAAB OR VOLVO ARE NOT TO BE CONSIDERED LUXURY MAKES WHEN MOST OF THE REVENUES FROM THEIR PRODUCTS COME FROM CARS PRICED A LOT MORE THAN 29OOO US$ OR 24000 EURO(S60,S80,XC70,XC90,V70,C70 AND ALL SAABS + MOST OF S40 AND V50 CARS SOLD ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE EXCEPT FROM THE 1,6)!!!!YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER THAT THE AVERAGE INCOME IN THE EU-15 IS LESS THAN THAT OF THE US.THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FOCUS IS A LUXURY CAR BECAUSE IN PORTUGAL THE TAXES ARE TOO HIGH or because the portuguese are poor...BUT HIGHER TAXES IN EUROPE SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT AS VEHICLES WHITH MORE POWER ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE SAME IN THE US.FOR EXAMPLE IN EUROPE YOU BUY A VOLVO S40 1,8 FOR 24000EUR(OR 30744 US$!!!!-KINETIC TRIM LEVEL)AND IN THE US THE SAME CAR WITH A 2,4(170PS NOT 140PS)LTR ENGINE(MOMENTUM TRIM LEVEL WHICH IS DEFINETELY MORE LUXURIOUS)CAN BE PURCHASED WITH 24000$ MSRP(18722US$)!FOR THE US IS DEFINETELY NOT A LUXURY CAR BUT FOR EUROPE IT REALLY IS CONSIDERING THE PRICE CRITERION THAT YOU SET. SO I THINK YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER THE OPINION ABOUT THE NEAR LUXURY MANUFACTURERS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR TOP SELLING MODELS EXCEED THE PRICE CRITERION YOU SET AND THE MAJORITY OF REVENUE COMES FROM CARS COSTING A LOT MORE THAN 29000 US $ FOR THE US MARKET. ONLY THE GERMANS ARE LUXURIOUS FIRMS?WHA TABOUT THE PAST?WAS VOLVO THE SAME AS AUDI OR SHARPLY MORE LUXURIOUS? NON SCANDINAVIAN ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΗΣ (This post was left by 87.203.216.224)

Okay, no need to capitalize your entire post. As you can see most of this article is under the heading "(American market)". Volvos and Saads are two cheap. There are several things you need to take into account:

1. Most Volvos are less than the median MSRP of vehicles sold. (Too cheap-$24k is an average family car)
2. Not all cars are more expensive in the EU-the MB E-Class is cheaper in Germany than here
3. Not all Europeans spend considerably less-Germans spend 23,000 Eruos on their new cars versus $26,000 among Americans
4. Please do not translate currencies-yes right now 24k Euros may be $30k-but what if the currencies change-does the actual domestic buying power of Europeans go down when the Euro goes down-no
5. Volvo does not have the prestige, few press releases in Germany or here describe the S40 as a luxury car. Not even Volvo calls it a luxury car.
6. Please provide a reference for "The majority of revenue [for Volvo and Saab coming] from cars costing a lot more than $29k."-I doubt seriously doubt it does.

If you would like to expand the non-US section you can but please don't convert currencies it merely gives an inaccurate depiction of pucharsing power. Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40? Regards, Signature^brendel 23:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

BRENDEL,APOSTOLIS HERE

Sorry for the capitals,last time.They were annoying and confusing.

The criterion set by the wikipedia site for a luxury car is to have a PRICE ABOVE 30000 US$,ok? Luxury car makers are those manufacturers that more than 50% of their sales comes from cars that cost more than this price tag,ok?

VOLVO CARS SALES 2005

Volvo XC90 85,994 US STARTING UP 36135 US $ GERMANY 42500 Volvo V50 83,202 " " 26690 US $ 22500(1,6) Volvo S40 75,136 " " 24240 US $ 21800(1,6) Volvo V70 70,156 " " 30045 US $ 31670 Volvo S60 62,528 " " 30885 US $ 28870 Volvo XC70 35,357 " " 36420 US $ 39400 Volvo S80 27,568 " " - - Volvo C70 Classic 3,246 " - -

THE All new Volvo S80 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars for its first year with starting price of 39360 US $ or 35950 EURO in Germany.th one referred above is the old one. The all new Volvo C70 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars(20000 ordered in 3 months!) with starting price of 39090 US $ or 33300 Euro in Germany. Consider the fact that average income in EU-15 is less than that of the US and that Germany has in general the lowest car prices in Europe.Even the German GDP per capita is much lower than that of the US.The Europeans tend to work less than the Americans.Volvo S40 is the only near luxury model of VOLVO considering the fact that most of its sales come from 1.8,2.0,2.4 and 2.0 diesel engines.All the other Volvo car models are above the price criterion.Volvo S40/V50 consists only of the 35.66% of total sales... Volvo is definetely a luxury car maker Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI,

Sold cars

2005 2004 +/– 2004 

Volvo S40 75,136 53,085 + 41,5% Volvo S60 62,528 73,121 – 14,4% Volvo S80 27,568 32,985 – 16,4% Volvo V50 83,202 47,743 + 74,0% Volvo V70 70,156 74,656 – 6,0% Volvo XC70 35,357 35,876 – 1,4% Volvo XC90 85,994 84,032 + 2,3% Volvo C70 Classic* 3,246 7,012 – 53,0% Others 760 47,714 – 98,4% Total 443,947 456,224 – 2,8%

• Production of Volvo C70 Classic ended in March 2005.

http://www.volvocars.com/corporation/FactsandFigures/MarketsandSales/

see the prices of Volvo cars on the internet

I am very frustrated by your last comment: "Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?"It is very unsophisticated and insulting for me!Have I told you anything like this?Volvo S40 is in a car range different than these cars as it is smaller.Why don't you refer to Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80!!!We talk about the entry level models,don't we?In Europe these cars are considered luxury cars.Do not take as an example only Germany.We talk about Europe.In US luxury cars sre considered those that cost more than 30000 US $.In Germany it may be the same.In France?Italy?UK?Spain,Sweden,Belgium,Greece?All these,other than german,markets consist much more in Europe's sales.So when you talk about Europe you should talk about the whole Europe,not only Germany.You are German but the review about Europe should refer to all OECD(Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development-developed countries) European members.Finally do not consider luxury cars from their american definition.In Europe this definition for all these reasons mentioned is totally different.

"Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI"- that's what I meant with "Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?". Okay, don't be offended. In the US and Germany we use the term luxury brands for Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, etc... As you said, Volvo and Saab are not on the same level as Cadillac or Jaguar. So can we call them luxo makes if we call Jaguar a luxo make? "Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80"-correct only in Eruope but not the US. In the US the S80 goes up against the C-Class in terms of pricing. Therefore the BMW 3-Series or Lincoln MKZ are the entry-level cars in the line-up of the those brands. The Volvo S80 is Volvo's top-of-the-line sedan. Thus Volvo's top sedan is priced in the same class as the bottom line-up sedan of BMW and Lincoln, illustrating the discrpancy between luxo and quasi-luxo brands like Volvo. Also, we don't have a definition of this article for France, Spain, Italy, Sweden. This article currently discusses luxo cars in two markets, North America and Germany. Why? Because I do not understand enough French or Spanish to look up those sources and we have not had an editor on this article who did. If you want to add a section called: "Swedish (or any country from which have a guideline) definition"- by all means do it. Add to the article! Create a section discussing the situation outside the Anglo-Germanic relam. BTW: Thanks for the lower case. Also, I did not in any way try and offend you. Regards, Signature^brendel 06:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

BMW 525i 43500$,AUDI A6 3.2 40820$,VOLVO S80 3,2 39360$,MERCEDES E-CLASS 51325$,ACURA TL 3,2 33325$,INFINITI M 41450$,SAAB 9-5 2.3T 34820$

I think that Mercedes is in a class of its own in the US!!!However all the other models are in the same class as Volvo S80,aren't they?Saab and Acura are a little bit downmarket.These prices are in the US.So why Volvo S80 is compared with the smallest BMW sedan?In Europe the prices of Audi and Volvo are the same,the BMW and Mercedes are a bit more expensive.Mercedes E is very expensive in the US....

Europe(Belgium) prices

MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro

You can easily see that Volvo is at the same category as the others.And even better than Audi.We talk about an average European market as Belgium is.

In Greece where I live,Saab is more upmarket than Volvo.

I agree American love Mercedes and the E-Class is quite a bit more expensive here than in Europe. Mercedes works hard to keep its prestige high in the US-that's partially why they havn't introduced the A or B-Class here (Also, the 2.2 CDI isn't sold here). I also agree with you that the S80 is a luxury car. I compared the S80 w/ the C-Class becuase its starting price is blow the $40k mark-but I can see how it is comparable to the E-Class. That said, Volvo has only one luxo car in its line-up. Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, Lincoln, and BMW are all lux in the US (the A/B Class, BMW 2-Series arn't sold here) and even in Europe have more at least two models above the $40k mark. So in the US Volvo is still downmarket from "ture" luxo brands like BMW and Jaguar. Volvo is, however, upmarket from mainstream brands like VW and Ford. That's why for the American market we have listed Volvo as a semi-luxo brand alongside Buick-which featrues similar pricing. You do seem more informed about the European market outside Germany (where Volvo is in a similar position as in the US), so please feel free to add a section about the "Greek market" or Belgium market. There you can say that while Volvo isn't on the same level as MB and BMW in the US and Germany it is a luxo make in Belgium and other average Euro markets. Regards, Signature^brendel 21:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

1So let's talk about the other models

BELGIAN STARTING PRICES IN EURO

BMW X5: 47800 ,MERCEDES M:49557 ,VOLVO XC90:44590 ,AUDI Q7: 49346 ,SAAB 9-7X: 49026 ,CADILLAC SRX 46949 ,JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE: 41900 ,LAND ROVER DISCOVERY(LR3): 41194 ,LEXUS RX: 46555 , PORSCHE CAYENNE: 52151

VOLVO'S BEST SELLING MODEL(19,37% OF TOTAL VOLVO SALES) IS XC90 STARTING AT 44950 EURO

VOLVO S60: 26949 EURO ,MERCEDES C: 29986 ,BMW 3-SEDAN: 25899 ,AUDI A4 : 24299 ,SAAB 9-3: 20000, CADILLAC BLS: 27589 ,LEXUS IS : 31479 ,JAGUAR X-TYPE : 28900,ALFA ROMEO 159 : 23300, VOLVO S40: 22750

VOLVO has two models in this category: S60,a true luxury car(14.08% of Volvo sales) and S40(16.92%),Volvo's near luxury car.The best selling models are those costing a lot more:Volvo S40 1.6Diesel(24750 euro)and all the engines produced in Sweden as only 20% of factory's output are fitted with Ford's petrol engines(1.6,1.8,2.0).The others are diesels(1.6,2.0:26250E,D5:29299E) or 2.4i(26799),2.5 T5(32750).My reference is www.volvocarsgent.be

MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro,LEXUS GS 47005

VOLVO V70 :31799, MERCEDES C-CLASS BREAK: 32277 ,AUDI A4 AVANT : 25514 , BMW 3 TOURING: 28000 JAGUAR X-TYPE ESTATE : 30900 ,VOLVO V50 : 25249

VOLVO has also two estates in the same category:V70(15.8% OF VOLVO SALES)AND V50(18.74%)

Even if we exlcude s40 and v50 and provided that S80(starting at 35199 euro) and C70(starting at 34000 euro) will sell more than 100000 cars in their first year(MORE THAN 1/5th of company's sales),the sales of models that have the same price as Mercedes,Bmw,Audi etc is very big

XC90+S60+V70+XC70+S80(NEW)+C70(NEW) YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS A LUXURY CAR MAKER FOR THE EUROPEAN MARKET + near luxury S40 and V50(although their price is very close to that of Audis)

The Germans would never agree that their swedish counterparts could be luxurious.

We agree that either Volvo nor Saab and Alfa Romeo produce cars rival to more expensive Mercedes(like CLS,S,CL,SLR,R) and BMW cars(like 7,6,M series) than those mentioned above.But this is not a reason not to consider them luxury.Why then AUDI is a luxury car maker and not a Volvo?The only car it produces above Volvo is A8,but its sales are not an important part of Audi's sales.

VOLVO V70 IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN JAGUAR X ESTATE AND SOLD 70156 CARS IN 2005. THE WHOLE JAGUAR FIRM SELLS ROUGHLY 80000 CARS PER ANNUM

Volvo,Land Rover,Jaguar,Aston Martin create PAG(Premier Automotive Group), FORD'S company for European luxury brands and Volvo is part of it.

I am having a similar discussion on the German WP, here editors also agree that Volvo is not on the same level as MB or BMW simply becuase they do not have models priced above $40k or 40k E. MB, BMW and Jaguar are not in the same cateogry as Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, not in Germany nor in the US. That said, perhaps things are different in other parts of the world. Car pricing differs greatly acorss the planet. In the US the S60 is not a luxury car neither is the S40, The Cadillac BLS is not sold here and neither are the cheaper E-Class models. AS I said you can open another section for non-German/US markets, there you can list Volvo as being luxury. For the American or German market it would be false to lump Volvo together with the likes of Cadillac and Lexus. But, as I have said, that may not be the situation everywhere. So while Volvo is a semi-luxo brand in the US, it may be a proper luxo brands in say, Sweden ;-) Let me give you the numbers for the American market:

• Lincoln ($30,000 to $65,000)
  • Navigator $51,000
  • Town Car $43,000
  • LS V8 $40,000
  • Mark LT $40,000
  • Zpehyr $30,000

Average starting MSRP: $40,800

• Cadillac ($30,000 to $71,000)
  • Escalade $55,000
  • DTS $42,000
  • STS $41,000
  • CTS $30,000

Average starting MSRP: $42,000

• Jaguar ($33,000 to $112,000)
  • XK $76,000
  • XJ $62,000
  • S-Type $46,000
  • X-Type $33,000

Average starting MSRP: $54,250

Now:

• Volvo ($24,000 to $39,000)
  • C70 $39,000
  • S80 $38,000
  • XC70 $36,000
  • XC90 $36,000
  • S60 $31,000
  • U70 $30,000
  • U50 $26,000
  • S40 $24,000

Average starting MSRP: $32,500

Mainstream manufacturer:

• Chevrolet ($10,000 to $48,000)
  • Aveo $10,000
  • Cobalt $14,000
  • Colorado $15,000
  • Solverado $16,000
  • HHR $16,000
  • Malibu $18,000
  • Impala $21,000
  • Monte C $21,000
  • Uplander $22,000
  • Equinox $22,000
  • T. Blazer $25,000
  • Avalanche $33,000
  • Tahoe $34,000
  • Suburban $37,000

Average startung MSRP: $21,714

So, as you can see, Volvo is in-between luxury marques such as Lincoln/Jaguar/Cadillac and mainstram marques such as Cehvorlet. That's why for the North American market we call it a semi-luxury marque. But that's the US only and as I said, the situation may be quite different in other markets. So, add a section for those markets. The list you currently see on this page only applies to the US-add another list for other markets. Sound good? Regards, Signature^brendel 05:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but how can I add a section?

Oh, very simple. Just go the article click on the edit "Edit this article" tab, scroll to the bottom and add ==Section name== and write your section below. If you need any help let me know. Remember the No. 1 Wiki rule, Be Bold! Regards, Signature^brendel 07:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello again

Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country...

[1]

The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro. Just see it and you will realise that only Germans spend big sums of money for new cars.They spend their money to buy used cars with higher cilindrity...Just see the auto park of Belgium...[2]

Is Buick the same as Volvo?Just see the prices...You have not realised that Volvo's best selling model is Volvo XC90 wich starts from 36000$ or 45000 Euro in Europe!!!!

Buick isn't sold in Europe and Volvo is cheaper in the US. In the US Buick and Volvo are of equal status. In Europe there are only Volvo, Saab, Lancia and Alfa Romeo in this category as far as I know. In the US Buick and Chrysler are also on par with Volvo and Saab. Also, the dollar is worth less than the Euro, so $36,000 would be 27,000 Euro. Signature^brendel 04:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconvenience...but Buick has only one car costing more than 30000 MSRP ,the RAINIER.Volvo in the US sell S80 with 40000$ Msrp(25000 sales expected there;1/5 of total Volvo US sales),XC90 with MORE THAN 36000$ MSRP(40000 sales in the US;1/3 of Volvo US sales),C70 costing more than 39000$(8000sales expected there),S60 costing more than 31000$,V70 with MSRP more than 30000$. What about Buick? LACROSSE(22915$),LUCERNE(262654$),RAINIER(32120$),RENDEZVOUS(25795$),TERRAZA(27295$)

Volvo has only two cars costing in the range between 25000-30000 $:S40 and V50,ALL the other range mentioned above costs a lot more... It's obvious they are not the same...

ACURA is a luxury company and not Volvo?You must be kidding...Just look at the MSRP prices:they are more than 36000$?You set as criterion:"if a car manufacturer's MSP of all vehicles sold is greater than $36,000, then it is a luxury car manufacturer"

ACURA

RSX 20325 TSX 27890 RDX 32995 TL 33325 MDX 37125 RL 49300

The KBB is not a good criterion though...It defines as luxury the mid-lexel of luxury cars and higher...Just look at the source you mentioned [3] It says:"Because the North American luxury car market encompasses a vast range of automobiles priced from under $30,000 to sky’s the limit, it’s helpful to break the segment into easily digestible chunks. Most commonly, we call those chunks entry luxury, mid-luxury, super-luxury, and ultra-luxury. Entry luxury cars usually cost between $25,000 and $40,000, and they don’t always have a luxury brand attached to them. Mid-luxury cars typically run between $40,000 and $60,000, and always carry a nameplate that resonates with image-conscious Americans. Super-luxury cars cost upwards of $60,000 but less than $100,000, and inspire envy in both friends and enemies. Ultra-luxury cars are six-figure expenses guaranteed to land the hottest date in town and the best parking spaces at the trendiest nightspots."

Volvo has not super luxury cars.But does Acura have?No.So you must change your mind and put Volvo at the same category as Acura or downgrade Acura...Just it's not fair...

Finally Volvo XC90 COSTS 45000 EURO IN EUROPE,in the US costs 36000$,so in Europe it is a very expensive car.And it was you that told me not to use money exchange to compare cars... In GREECE Volvo XC90 costs 57000Euro!The average however is that of Belgium.Just see [4]

I have just seen this:you consider Audi a near luxury car maker?Then luxury maker for you is only Maybach or Bentley...

Acura's US line-up is mentioned as being semi-luxury, just like Volvo. Audi is a luxo brand, even though it sells the A4 in the US and A2 in Europe. Here's how the referencing works: The source you mentioned gives us guidelines and KBB tells us who fits those guidelines. Signature^brendel 23:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Volvo is the part of Ford's Premium Automotive Group - the group consisting only of premium/luxury brands.

Also, In Europe Volvo is considered a luxury brand, however not as luxury as BMW or MB. Netrat (talk) 03:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

According the Wikipedia policy, article should represent global point of view. The US-centric point of view is a common issue of many article, one of the issues that needs to be fixed. We need to support WP:NPOV, so European market is as much important as American one. So it does not matter if Volvo is not considered to be a lux brand in US. Netrat (talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Finally, the proper way to find out if customers are paying for the brand or not is to compare the price of a vehicle to the average price of its competitors in the same size segment with the same horsepower and the same options (like leather seats), not to compare the price to your income or the median income in your conutry. That's why exact price tags make little sense. Netrat (talk) 03:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY CARS

Just see this site that includes a guide for entry level luxury vehicles... [5]

Yes, those are all entry-level luxo cars. I'll incoperate this into the article as a reference for the entry-level section. Rergards, Signature^brendel 23:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Upon the guidelines set by the source mentioned both S40,S60,9-3,159,A4 are entry-luxury sedans.You mention in the article that the US prices set the guidelines on wether a company is luxury or not.So Acura is not a luxury brand and Audi is... As all of these companies' sales come from cars of more than 25000 Euro,they are all luxury makes.All of them!Mercedes or Jaguar are not the same as Audi or Volvo but that does not change that all are luxo brands.Just see that only 10% of vehicles sold in Belgium in 2005 cost above 24000 Euro.The true middle class that can buy luxury vehicles is the wealthiest 20% of a society.Just see the definition for true middle class in the Wikipedia.The belgians are not poor,they have the same income as germans.So definetely these cars are luxury ones...

I wrote the article on middle class here on WP ;-) That aside the S40 is not a luxo car in the US. The S60 may be seen as an entry-level luxo car. Audi is above Volvo in the US, on the same level as MB. Remember that all sections of this article regarding different segments only talk about the US. Also, Volvo does not have one car starting above $40k in the US. In Eruope that may be different. So feel free to edit the section regarding the European market. Also in Germany the medain price was 24,000 Euro, meaning that half of all cars sold in Germany were over 24k E. In the US the median was $26,000. Perhaps, Belgians are smarter and don't waste so much money on cars ;-) Signature^brendel 01:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

As Audi is above Volvo and Acura in the same level as Volvo why in the article you mention Audi as a near luxury maker and Acura a luxury maker?

Finally give me references for 24000 Euro for Germany or 26000$ for the US....I gave you the reference for Belgium...And why we should take into account Germany and not e.g. France?Germany is not the same as the whole of Europe in the car market.Germany is the only European country that there are no speed limits in Autobahns,there are no toll stations.They also buy bigger and more expensive cars than all the other Europeans(compressors,turbos,big engines etc).Go to the same income big countries such as Italy or France and you will change your mind.... You also mentioned Forbes Autos.See the closest competitors of Volvo S40 [6] Eventually a luxury car is not only defined by its price but by its refinement,quality perceived etc....

You didn't give one for Belgium. I'll check the listings that must be an error Audi should be above Volvo and Acura. Also, please add, she should take into account all we can! I just added Germany and the US because thet's the two markets about which I know a lot. I don't know much about the French market and am thus not able to write about it. If you know something I don't add it! Also maybe your right that "Germans buy bigger and more expensive cars than all the other Europeans(compressors,turbos,big engines etc)." Yes that's true-Germans do own more cars than any other Eruopean country. The price guidelines I provide apply only to the US and Germany. Again, if you know more markets and the corresponding price guidelines for these markets add them. BTW: A luxo car is about price and comfort, but mainly price, read the article of luxury good. Luxury is defined economic pheonoma. Regards, Signature^brendel 03:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I am an economist and I know what a luxury product is.And for Europe all these european car brands described as near luxury are luxury brands..I mentioned the classification of car registrations in Belgium in price categories above our Buick discussion.If you have not seen that,here it is:[7]. "Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country... The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag(14763-17352Euro)... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro."

Well that's fine, then perhaps in Blegium the definition of a luxury car is different. Also you provided me with a "median." I, however, provided you with an average. I think as an economist you are well aware of the difference. As I said before, different markets, different guidelines. In Germany a Passat is seens as the average joe car. Maybe Germans just spend more of their income on cars that the Belgiums. But Volvo is not in the same category as BMW. And in the US where Volvos are apperantly quite a bit cheaper than in Europe, Volvo isn't yet a luxo car maker. It might be in Belgium, but not in the US. So, add a section for Belgium. Here's what the average American spends: [8] But remember just because Volvo isn't lux in the US, doesn't mean that it is not a luxo brand somewhere else. BTW: I wrote the article on Household income in the United States and am trying to make international comparisons, so could you give me a link to those household income statistics you have. Thx. Regards, Signature^brendel 17:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The median is always better than the average,I hope you know it... Here is the average disposable income of households in Nordic countries [9]

For Sweden look at[10] or [11] for household finances in Sweden.As I am greek and I live in Greece here are the greek statistics.Unfortunately there are no data in english for 2005.So i give them to you... Households' month total expenditure UP TO 750€/month: 408917 households(10.24%), 751-1100 €/month: 564531 households(14.13%), 1101-1450€/month: 522860 households(13.10%), 1451-1800€/month: 480402 households(12.03%), 1801-2200€/month: 471172 households(11.8o%), 2201-2800€/month: 538062 households(13.48%), 2801-3500€/month: 421341 households(10.55%), higher than 3500€/month: 585689 households(14.67%), Total households :3992964(100%) Generally ou should have in mind that black market in Greece consists 40% of GDP(not included in GDP).It has to be mentioned that 80,05% of Greeks live in their own home.In rural areas this comes at 96.96% ownership-occupancy.In rural areas live the households with the lowest incomes but there is no need to pay for rent...In urban areas it is eliminated at 73.53%(mainly foreign immigrants do not own a house)

As you understand the median household income in Greece is at about 24000€/year.

For Austria see [12]and here [13] You may also find more information here:[14]

Thank you very much, I apreciate it. I will use this data on my Household income in the United States article for the purpose of international comparison. Look for in about two days, when I have some more time. Thanks. Signature^brendel 15:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why have you put Alfa Romeo among the luxury brands and not Volvo.Alfa rommeo has not a car costing more than 50000Euro.Volvo has cars that cost up to 90000Euro(XC90 4.4 V8 in Greece) or 53965£ in the UK!Saab the same with 9-7X9-5 is also costlier than Alfa 166 and accounts for abig part of Saab sales.The same for V70 of Volvo.The demand for these two brands increases with the rise of income,so they are luxury brands,not the same as Jaguar,Mercedes or BMW but comparable with Audi,Alfa Romeo,Acura and Infiniti.I have seen a new source for car sales in Europe.Austria boosts a bigger GDP per capita than Germany,just see the rankings...According to the greek magazine 4troxoi which is the most prominent in its sector magazine in Greece and analyses the car sales in each country says that 36.7%of car sales(2005)represent cars with horsepower between 92-120hp,20.9% for cars with 55-74hp(there are such cars in Europe,you may ignore it)and only 24.1% for all cars above 120hp!!!!!The category between 74 and 92hp is not mentioned but it must be the remaining 18.3% of total Austrian sales for 2005.

Well GDP per capita isn't a very good measure of wealth, nonetheless Austria is a wealthy as Germany. In the US there are no Volvos hitting the $90k mark, not even close. Again, perhaps it is different in other markets, so feel free to mention that in the article. You are right if strictly following the definition of a luxury good, Volvo and Alfa would qualify. But with cars one needs to consider more than that. And in the US, according to the most prominent authority on what is a luxury car, KBB and other press publications, Volvo, Saab, and Alfa are semi-lux because they are not put in the same field as Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Infiniti, or Lexus. Of course you may put in a new section where you dicuss all those statistics you are mentioning and where you can describe the relationship between a luxury good and a luxury car. (I did put Alfa back under semi-lux) Regards, Signature^brendel 17:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Brendel,here is the site from the 'NEW YORK TIMES' suggesting that both S40 and S60 are luxury cars in the US.Just respond me responsibly because you insist on KBB...I think that NEW YORK TIMES are a much more reliable source...Itis mentioned that S40 has a lower price but it can be equipped with luxury items as it is built by a luxury car maker.The fact that a car is not the same as Cadillac does not mean that it is not a luxury car.And there are no semi-luxury products,there are only normal and luxurygoods.Semi-luxury is an invention of your own in the economic theory!

Just see:[15]

The term near-luxury is not my invention. Google it, there are 266,000 hits. Please note that the definition of luxury car and luxury good are not quite the same. Also the NY Times is my national newspaper of choice but it isn't where I'd go for car pricing. That's KBB, which only does car pricing and isn't a newspaper-car dealers use it to determine their prices.
That said, Volvo is not in the same league as Lincoln, Cadillac or Jaguar. I think we agree on that. Now, what should be call Volvo then. Volvo certainly is above the mainstream, I have never argued it isn't. I just think the US section of this article should reflect that Volvo isn't quite in the same league as Audi or Cadillac. So, I called it what the press tendes to call the S40 or S60, near or semi-luxury. What is your proposal? Signature^brendel 17:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you do not trust when buying a car the New York Times is something subjective and no objective,as my opinion is.Even in one site that the car is mentioned as luxury then it is unfair to have a subjective point of view,thus the classification would be false.We should not start arguing wether a site is good or not. My proposal is to gather all the brands at the luxury nameplate and avoid semi-luxury definition.The semi-luxury defintition should be used only for cars and not for brands.Volvo,Saab and Alfa Romeo are all luxury brands but Volvo C30 or S40,Alfa Romeo 147,Audi A3 and BMW 1 are not proper luxury cars as their price is too low for being considered as luxury cars but they carry luxury brands,so they are semi-luxury cars.I have already proved you that for example Volvo sales come in majority from cars costing more than 30000$.Its model with the highest sales is the Volvo XC90,a luxury SUV.Do you think that one would buy a Volvo XC90 at the same money as Mercedes M or BMW X5 if (s)he considered that the product he would buy was not as good as the others.Noway!Think of it.Americans buy Volvo XC90 instead of buying the US made X5,M at the same price!They would not do it if they thought that Volvo products are inferior to them.The same happens with Volvo cars generally.So we should put all the brands refered at the article as luxury brands and make a sub article refering to cars that are not luxury(they are premiums though) but carry luxury brand names.

Okay, how about we add the sentence "These marques may be refered to as luxury brands:" at the top. This way, the subjective nature of the listing is shown. I guess if you can reference it, then go ahead and merge the semi and full luxo brands lists. But please add the by me proposed sentence at the top. Signature^brendel 19:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Where exactly at the top you want me to add the phrase?Finally I have already given you some references for luxury makers.I should also add that Volvo prices are similar with that of Audi in the US.The only exception is only S40 with the 2.4l(170ps) engine wich costs 24000$ but without the geartronic(automatic transmission) which is popular in the US.With that added it costs 25500$...Audi e.g. has not such an engine imported car in the US.The S40 T5(218ps) has the same price as the Audi A4 2.0T(200ps) although Volvo S40 is 4inches smaller in length!In the same length as A4 is the Volvo S60(180inches) which costs 30885$ for the equivalent engine(2.5T,208hp) when the Audi A4 costs 28240!!!!!Volvo is undoubtedly at the same level as Audi even in the US,so it deserves to be called a luxury maker even for the US!!!

Well add the references to the section and I'll add the phrase "These marques may be refered to as luxury brands." I wouldn't say Audi is at the same level as Volvo, it has a more prestigous image and its Median Selling Price is quite a bit higher ($38k vs. $34k). Nonetheless, go ahead revise the luxo car list according to your sources. I will, however, add a note that according to KBB Volvo isn't at the same level with Cadillac, BMW or Lincoln. Signature^brendel 18:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Why this stance towards Volvo?Audi is also not the same as BMW or Cadillac but you did not make such reference...Please do not add such a subjective note.You may add that some luxo companies are more prestigious than the others in general...and that's objective

SEE here the main competitors of Volvo C70 according to the british Autocar [16]

You may also see this Top Gear article for the all new Volvo C30.See at this page its main competitors:Audi A3,BMW 1,Alfa GT... [17]

You may also see Volvo XC90 Top Gear review which had been given the BEST PREMIUM SUV PRIZE from Top Gear.You are conspicuous against Top Gear?I have to mention that XC90 is Volvo's best selling car(more than 20% of Volvo sales)...

Finally something that you do not want but it really is especially for Europe.Volvo S40 refered as a compact executive car at Top Gear car's review!! See : [18]

"You may add that some luxo companies are more prestigious than the others in general...and that's objective"- That what I intended. I have nothing against Volvo, they do make a fine car. I just don't see it up there with Jaguar, Lincoln or BMW. I do think we have found a compromise though, right. Signature^brendel 05:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Here I'll add some quotes. From What Car?: "The Volvo is not cheap for a small family car but the S40’s quality and high levels of standard equipment justify the price tag" [19], "[...] good enough to tempt buyers out of compact execs." [20] From Auto Express: "The S40 is a slightly strange car. Volvo say it has been designed to battle with the Audi A3 and BMW 1-Series, but the saloon bodystyle pushes it into the compact executive sector - competing with the BMW 3-Series, Audi A4 and... the Volvo S60!" [21] 4Car says on the S40 "It looks like a Volvo S60 - or does it? Volvo's new S40 is slightly smaller, fitting just below a BMW 3-Series while the S60 slots in above." [22] Besides, this page talks about the C30 as a "premium compact hatchback" and adds: "The Volvo C30 is that new car, designed to steal buyers from the A3, the BMW 1-Series and the Alfa 147 (or its replacement) [...] In essence the C30 is an S40 saloon with 22cm chopped off the tail, reclothed in a three-door body with all-new external sheet metal." [23] On the S60, 4Car writes: "Model-for-model, it's largely in line with the BMW 3 Series - a little dearer than an Audi A4, but cheaper than a Mercedes C-Class." [24]

Another hint: in Spain, the C-Class 200 CDI (122 hp) goes for € 34.150, the S60 2.4 D5 (126 hp) for € 31.400, the 318d (122 hp) for € 31.000 and the A4 2.0 TDI (140 hp) for € 31.150 — the C-Class is slightly better equipped than the other three. In contrast, the S40 2.0 D (136 hp) costs only € 28.700. [25] Considering the lower trim levels, the S40 2.0 D starts at € 26.500 and has another close rival, the Jetta 2.0 TDI (140 hp) at € 26.100.

What I suggest is to refer to the Volvo C30 as a premium small family car, the same as the Audi A3 and BMW 1 Series; to the S40 as its saloon derivative and to the V50 as its estate derivative. Remember that it is said the 1 Series may spawn a saloon version, which would compete directly against the S40. Finally, I see the S60 as the "natural" compact executive car, as it is sized, powered and priced similarly to the German trio, the Alfa Romeo 159, Lexus IS, Jaguar X-Type, Volvo 9-3 and the kind. -- NaBUru38 20:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

An another verification of the fact that entry level luxury cars in the US are real luxury cars in Europe is the fact that Mercedes won't introduce small luxury cars in the US market.Here is an article from Reuters saying that "Maier said a 6-cylinder C-Class Mercedes-Benz -- a posh car in Europe -- was seen as an entry-level model for the brand in North America." [26] (This post was left by 87.203.140.1)

A Mercedes-Benz police cruiser in Hamburg.

Perhaps, that's ture in some parts of Europe. But in Germany the C-Class is a Mittelklasse wagen or "Middle class car." Few in Germany see a C-Class as posh. Also keep in mind that at current conversion rates, the average German who spents roughly $23k € on his or her car, may outspend the average American who spent $26k USD on a car with a sticker of $31k. Not all European markets are the same-economics as well as culuture play a role. The people in some countries may very well spent a larger percentage of their income on cars than in another. The article you cited is interesting and refers to the prestige of MB. Mercedes has perhpas more prestige in the US than in Europe (incld. Germany). Here you must also consider that Europeans, or at least Germans, are used to seeing Mercedes-Benz police cars, ambulances, gargage trucks, and big rigs, all w/ the 3-pointed star up front-this already reduces the prestige of the brand to the point where the A-class and B-class are no longer seen as faux-pas. Regards, Signature^brendel 21:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Virtually all opinion and little can be done about it?

I don't believe this article provides any reliable insight without being opinion based. There are marques that people (myself included) consider luxurious that others may not. There will be some that many consider luxurious vehicles, but by and large if somebody believes a Volvo is, no amount of numbers or comparatives will truly change the perception - since that is what luxury is.

I think the Volvo and Saab brands are luxury vehicles as much as Mercedes or BMW. This is opinion, but then so is the notion that Mercedes or BMWs are luxurious. One could say the Ford 'ghia' range that were available in the Uk were previously a 'luxury' model of their car.

If we are to call luxury are specific series of features (sat nav/heated seats/electric seats etc.) then the ballpark moves on continuously - remember when only luxury cars had multiple airbags/power steering). If we are to go on price-range then we are merely pointing out expensive cars and calling them luxury by value alone. If we are to go by 'prestige' then we are entirely in the territory of opinion.

I'm open to suggestions (not that they are particularly needed the article is quite lengthy) but as it stands I don't personally feel the article is like that of an encyclopedia.

Anyhoo good chat everybody some impressive stuff above! ny156uk 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I wrote this article a long time ago (in WP time). Back then WP poloicies were not applied as strictly and another users was involved in the process with mean many parts of this article are the results of compromises. The ballpark does move, as the market is dynamic and, yes, some Fords and VWs (e.g. Touareg & Pheaton) may be considered luxury vehicles. As for prestige, you're right there is not even an objective definition of what prestige is. So, we go by pricing and media releases, that state certain cars to be luxury vehicles. We then mention those brands and vehicles and try to identify common pricing trends between these vehicles. Price is so important here because the idea or a luxury good is an economic concept; thus the concept of luxury cars is mostly based on pricing-as it is too an economic concept. See the luxury good article. Hope that answers some of your concerns. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Chrysler 300 C and Hummer H2

Are they luxury vehicles? Some source says they are. Some says not. I'm confused. Is there any affirmative answer? --Mato Rei 13:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No there is no affirmative answer. Deciding what vehicle is and isn't a luxury car is a highly subjective topic- it all lies within the eyes of the beholder. Signature^brendel 16:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Will the entry-level luxury solve the problem? I know 300C can be considered as entry-level luxury. How about H2? Will it be disputed even as an entry-level luxury vehicle? Or it has enough prestige to be an entry-level luxury vehicle? Which answer will that be? --Mato Rei 05:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It still depends on your view-point. A 300C may be called a luxo car, or not. There arn't any definite guidelines. The H2 may not at all be seen as a luxo car as it is not comfortable-though others only take price into consideration and do see it as a luxo car. I think many publications will probably mention the 300C as an entry-luxo, but unfortunately there are no definite answers. Signature^brendel 05:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. It's enough for me to know the general views about the cars above. --Mato Rei 12:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

MERCEDES BENZ C-CLASS

Mercedes-Benz c-class is a posh car even for Germany.Germany is not the wealthiest country in Europe as you may think.The UK,Norway,Switzerland,Ireland,Denmark,Sweden,Luxembourg,Austria and others are much wealthier.It is a common car in Germany as many buy it used in lower prices as it is a posh car for the whole of Europe.When the GDP per capita of the US is 40000$ and that of EU-15 average is that of 29000$(22857Euro) you understand that things are much different than the US and that US prices should not be considered as benchmarks for luxury cars.As an economist I know the difference between GDP and household income but I have given you data for household income and average purchase for cars in some countries...Is France a poor country?It has the same income as Germany.And there Mercedes is a posh car.No matter the sum of money they spend on a car.

I know Germany isn't Europe's wealthiest country. But I have lifed there 60% of my life-time and no one refers to the C-Class as a posh car. (It certainly isn't average, but it isn't posh either) Also GDP per capita is not a good reflection of income, A) its an average, B) Its the economy divided by the number of poeple, and has nothing to do really with how much people actually make (You're an economist you know that). The median income for an American male is $33,000 USD. Beleive it or not rural England has a comparable median household income to the US. France isn't a poor country, but maybe they just spent less on cars, maybe the view their cars differently... there could many non-economic reasons why a car is viewed in a certain way in one country and viewed in another light in another country. In Germany a C-Class is classified as a Mittelklassewagen "Middle class car," an E-Class is a "Obere mittelklasse wagen," Upper-middle class car, an S-Class is a "Oberklasse wagen," upper-class car and a Maybach is a "Luxusklasse wagen," Luxury class wagon. Regardeless of economics, the C-Class which is no more expansive than a nicely equipped VW Passat (the average German car) is not seen as posh car. There could be other reasons, besides income, why the French press consideres the C-Class and posh and the German doesn't-maybe France isn't as much of a car-crazed country?... there could other sociological reasons, apart from economics. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 15:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing is necessary for the section describing European SUVs:

Mainstream Japanese manufacturers such as Honda, Nissan and Toyota have slightly more expensive prices than European manufacturers like Ford, Opel, Peugeot and Renault, but are considered to be in the same category as them. Automobile makers like Lancia, Saab and Volvo would fall into the near-luxury manufacturer category , as these brands build cars with better qualities than usual.

As we know Ford is an American manufacturer.

Ford is widely considered in Europe as a german firm although everyone knows that it's an american one.That happens as design,build quality etc of European Fords are similar to that of German Cars.Even in advertising here in Greece they are connected with German superior quality etc...

VOLVO

An another point that shows that Volvo is a luxury brand even when we talk about the US market is the fact that its dealerships are in the 6th place among the luxury brands... [27]

Help

The gallery isn't working

...and it isn't needed either. A bullet-fomrat list is easier to read and more professional in apperance. All that's needed is picture of a traditional luxe car, a modern luxe car, one from the Eastern Hemisphere, one from the Western Hemisphere (preferably American and European -66% of readers are in the U.S., and around a quarter are in Europe). Signature^brendel 15:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Chrysler?

Now, I know that the defenition of a "luxury car" is by its price, but Chrysler makes luxury cars at "family prices", as stated in the Chrysler article. Shouldn't we define a luxury car by the amneties it provides and its styling rather that its price? Many of Chrysler's cars CAN be considered luxury cars, not just near-luxury, because of their styling. For example, the Chrysler 300, Chrysler Pacifica, Chrysler Aspen and the Chrysler Crossfire can all be easily considered luxury cars because of their amneties (power seats, wood paneling, DVD players, sunroof, ect.) Chrysler was on the list before it was taken down because of its price. The pricing rule seems a bit unusual, because luxury cars are defined by quality and not just price. — JuWiki (Talk <> Resources) 16:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

May I also add that these Chrysler cars have been called "upscale," "Mercedes-like" and "luxury" vehicles by professional car critics? See: [28] (Pacifica), [29] (300), [30] (Crossfire).
Also, the 300 and PT Cruiser are also sold in limousine versions, along with other luxury vehicles like Lincoln's Town Car.
Evidence:

• http://www.topoftheworldlimo.com/images/Chrysler300%20003.jpg
• http://www.topoftheworldlimo.com/images/chrysler300.jpg
• http://www.limos4sale.com/ptcruiser.htm

— JuWiki (Talk <> Resources) 01:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Links

What is with the whole link business? When I first added my link to Ultraluxurycar.com on this page, there were four other links, all of which directed to magazines. My link was to an informational site. I am not saying information that was lacking in the page, but I am saying that it would be good for further research. Ten minutes later my link was removed. After three days, I added it back in. The next day, the whole "Link" section was gone. Is it the work of Wikipedia fanatics who don't want Wikipedia to be a "directory of links"? Sure, I could go through and remove every link on every page I find, but what have I accomplished? Absolutely, nothing! Yes, Wikipedia would have no spam links, but all the valid ones would be gone too. I sincerely think that my link is valid and should be used on this page. Zach4636 12:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm the Wikipedia fanatic, here. I'm enforcing the guidelines for external links We already discussed your case on your talk page. I think you have a conflict of interest regarding that link. It should not be added by you, else it just looks like spam. Aside from the COI, we add information to Wikipedia by adding content, not links. --Mdwyer 19:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Joke image

User:71.234.11.63 is adding the image of the Oldsmobile Achieva coupe -- describing it as the pinnacle of luxury! Including this car of course is a good joke! — CZmarlin 12:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank for your being a good sport and appreciating my humor. Achieva's are truly crapmobiles.--71.234.11.63 20:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Car Pictures

If anybody has a picture of a "Luxury crossover SUV" or a "Luxury pickup truck", I think that this page could really use them. Right now there are pictures of every other type of luxury car except them. I will also try to find applicable pictures. Zach4636 12:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A Link Section

I think that there should really be an external link section. Not having one detracts from the integrity of the page. Zach4636 21:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Clarification needed

Whoever wrote this sentence really needs to clarify it because it does not make sense:

For vehicles such as smart fortwo, although the base model costs more than the 4/5-door subcompact or compact cars (in some cases, even compact cars loaded with factory options) for the same market, and was sold through luxury brand dealers, are not commonly regarded as luxury vehicles.

Thank you. Zach4636 14:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary divisions/ original research?

This whole article seems to be based on rather arbitrary unsourced definitions of what a luxury, ultra-luxury etc car is. I would suggest that the whole article is bordering on original research WP:OR. There is no accepted universal definition of what constitutes a 'mid-luxury', 'high-end luxury' or any other type of luxury vehicle and it's not Wikipedia's job to create one. I think it should be rewritten to reflect this rather than attempting to state as a matter of fact that car X is 'entry-level luxury' and car Y is 'mid-luxury'. As it stands, the article is a collection of opinion presented as fact. Dino246 (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Rebuild this article

This article has no place in a reference work. There is not a single agreed upon definition of luxury, hence the entire article is conjectural.

I strongly suggest we start over with this article. Comments?

See Weasel Words. 842U (talk) 23:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Fully support you. Let's BE BOLD and tidy this mess up. Dino246 (talk) 12:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

This has gone from inadequate to awful. It reads like it was written in one sitting with no research done on the topic, and the notion that it is now somehow neutral is off-base. For example, just because any manufacturer can call any car "luxury" doesn't mean that they DO. The term "luxury vehicle" needs a definitionally precise article rather than an arbitrarily opinionated one; if someone is up to the task of fixing it and fast, I salute you; if not, I'll revert it. Bflorsheim (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

A definitionally precise article would be great -- far better than reverting the article. Try to find that definition though. 842U (talk) 00:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Definitionally reasonable, then. I mean, look at this sentence:

"Nonetheless [nonetheless of what?? certainly not anything in the preceding paragraph, it doesn't apply], the term is both a weasel word and a peacock term [this links to a Wikipedia term page, not something normal reference users are going to be seeking] -- and as such can encourage the listener [?] to infer conclusions not implicit in the word. [that's "phrase," and additionally, what term CAN'T have non-implicit conclusions derived from it?]"

You sound like you want to tie this term up and stab it to death with an ice pick. What did luxury cars ever do to you? Give me ONE reason the new version of the article is better than the previous one, what with its lack of pictures, sources/citations, examples, neutrality, and any semblance of a definition in terms of what a luxury CAR--the vehicle implied, not the term itself--actually is. Bflorsheim (talk) 01:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback on the article — your opinions are valuable here. Whatever happens, lets keep discussing this — there are no hard feelings, and maybe we can get to a place where the article really works.

In the meantime, if you read this entire discussion page, this issue has festered for a long time — ice picks aside, several folks have identified the deeply flawed nature of the article in its previous state.

We know SUV's derive from trucks, that Crossover's are built on unibody chassis, that a convetible allows open air driving — but what precisely do we know about luxury vehicles?

Granted, the current article is flawed too.

The current brief article is better than the long flawed article, because its easier to build on and revise. The sheer bulk of the last article gave credence to something for which there is no credence: that there is a definition for a luxury vehicle. 842U (talk) 11:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The new version is little more than a foundation on which to build but I firmly believe that the old version was beyond repair and that starting from scratch is the best course of action. I intend to find time to contribute here and help write an encyclopedic article on luxury vehicles rather than the random list of opinion that was here previously. Dino246 (talk) 12:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This is great — with a few of us taking care to recraft the article, perhaps we can arrive at a functional reference. 842U (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I bit the bullet and wrote something. Yes, it's unreferenced and written largely from my own personal knowledge of the motor industry, but I believe we can back up most of what I've written so let's take an active approach to find supporting sources rather than just fill it with {{Fact}} tags. I dropped in specific names of marques where I felt it was necessary but I don't think this article needs to have a comprehensive list and I'd discourage people from simply adding 'Lancia' or whatever without a good specific reason why. In true Wikipedia spirit though, this article belongs to everyone so be bold and edit away. Dino246 (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Dino, I have a problem with what you added, retracted it, and hope you will come up with a "sandboxed" edition that uses a less conjectural tone and reliable sources. 842U (talk) 15:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Dino, in ref to your lates edit:

Some (see weasel words) motor manufacturers (who?) produce only luxury vehicles (again, what is this?) and these are considered (by whom?) to be luxury brands (again, what is this?). However, most (see weasel words) motor manufacturing companies have some sort of luxury vehicle (again, what is this) or luxury vehicle brand in their range and today, the term luxury vehicle is applied to some small cars and 4x4s as well as the more traditional four door saloons and Grand Tourer sports cars that were exclusively considered (by whom) to be luxury vehicles in the past.

It's ineffective to have this conversation about luxury vehicles, when the term itself is vague. Again, we need real sources here -- otherwise the article will become a lot of conjecture again. 842U (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverted article to the stable description of "luxury vehicle" -- without the marketing hype and puffery of various brands of automobiles. CZmarlin (talk) 18:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Renewed discussion about what a luxury car is

See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Luxury_Cars. Ros0709 (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. Anyone who's been involved or observing the arguments here over the last few months should click above and vote 'delete'. The only thing we've basically all agreed on here is that there is no accepted definition of what a luxury vehicle is so to attempt to make a list of them is ludicrous.Dino246 (talk) 18:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of fairness I should add that those who have been involved with this article will be well placed to comment on the AfD (which I raised) - whatever your views. Ros0709 (talk) 19:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to engage in any voter harassment.. vote how you like but do contribute to the discussion. A little talking now could save a lot of time and nonsense later, whatever the conclusion.Dino246 (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What the hell is wrong with you people?

There used be a huge article on luxury vehicles a few months back, why did it get downsized into something useless and completely amaturely made???

Please bring back the old article, we're not going to debate what a luxury cars is because it's a waste of time, everyone today has a pretty clear perception of what a luxury car is, like Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Rolls Royce. Now you want to debate if a luxury car is a tree or a rock or any type of concept you deem fit...

Please bring back the old article. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.162.63.62 (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

From article history I can see that User:842U was one who downsized the article in April 2008. From his edits you can see that 842U just does not like the term claiming it is not official and subjective. This is very NPOV (sorry, typo). Downsizing article from 22 kb to 1 kb looks almost like vandalism. 842U, be aware that term "luxury car" is used by motor press in very objective meaning. See a section below for more information. I would agree with 62.162.63.62. Netrat (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a good discussion. NPOV means: neutral point of view. So thanks. The article can always be reverted. This isn't a power struggle. There had been much of discussion on this page regarding the original research nature of the old article. There were no references, no objectivity, nothing to verifiably define a "luxury" vehicle. In fact, there appear to be very few definitions around the world for what defines the term "luxury" when applied to a vehicle. And that is the bottom line about what a Wikipedia article is supposed to be about: verifiabilitiy, and reliable reference material. Where is that?

The revision reflected that consensus. Anyone who wants to work on the article, providing clear, verifiable, information based on strong third-party independent source... is welcome to.

If the "motoring press" uses this term objectively... where is the "motoring press'" definition? That should actually be a very easy to find answer if it is in fact available. Who is "the motoring press?"

Look at this statement: "everyone today has a pretty clear perception of what a luxury car is" from above. OK, who is this everyone? Show us a reference. Where is this so called "clear perception?" Show us a reference. What makes an Audi a luxury car? A Suzuki SX4 with standard Naviagation system, arguably high build quality... is that not a luxury car? Where is the cut-off? 842U (talk) 14:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

K. "where is the "motoring press'" definition?" - I believe the motoring press definition is pretty obvious. "Who is "the motoring press?" - how about European Car of the Year jury? You probably know that this council includes top industry journalists only. "There were no references, no objectivity, nothing to verifiably define a "luxury" vehicle. In fact, there appear to be very few definitions around the world for what defines the term "luxury" when applied to a vehicle." - true, but your version is not very well sourced as well. What makes an Audi a luxury car? A Suzuki SX4 with standard Naviagation system, arguably high build quality... is that not a luxury car? Where is the cut-off? - the only reference that supports your version (the PDF version of the marketing report) answers this question by including only few select brands in its report. The revision reflected that consensus. - would it ever be a consensus, there would not be any rollbacks, right? I can see at least two of them in the history. Netrat (talk) 22:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The old version was extremely POV. It was almost entirely unreferenced original research, it was heavily Americacentric and it read like a very long haphazard collection of contradictory opinion phrased as fact. Luxury Vehicle is a subjective term applicable to vehicles of all shapes, values and sizes and the previous article took it as an objective car classification which it desperately and unsuccessfully tried to define. The current version is also quite flawed but I would much rather build on this than go back to the old one and start trying to clear that up because it was pretty much beyond repair. Dino246 (talk) 16:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I just want to ask why the real definition of a luxury car is so important to 842U??? I understand and respect your right to challange what you think is false and misinformation but why downsize a perfectly made article? I feel the article is incomplete now as a result of this downsizing. Also, why put British and US classifications of a luxury vehicle on a page that is intended to contain information of luxury vehicles, shouldn't we just make a seperate Wikipedia article for the definitions/classifications of a luxury vehicle and put the old article back??? Just something to think about... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.162.63.62 (talk) 14:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Classification

842U keeps removing car size classification template, as well as any mentions of F-Segment. Why that's wrong: 1. "Luxury car" may be a marketing term in American English, but in British English it refers to F-Segment cars. Sources: [31], [32], [33], [34]. What Car? and AutoExpress are premier UK auto magazines. Netrat (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not the only one who removed that information, so go easy. Not one of these references defines the term "Luxury Vehicle." They use the term without defining it. And it may well be their own idiosyncratic pereception of "luxury vehicle"... without a definition or some reference, there is no way to tell. I also don't see on your links, a clear connection between F segment and luxury vehicle. 842U (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm with 842U here. I'm normally quite quick to accuse an article of being Americacentric (as so many on Wikipedia are) but in this case I don't think it's the case. Luxury Vehicle is not an objective car classification in the UK either. Dino246 (talk) 16:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"Not one of these references defines the term "Luxury Vehicle." They use the term without defining it." - still, note that they only include F-class sedans in the category. No Cayennes, no Gallardos, no Escalades (Capitain Obvious: I mean, no luxury SUVs, no luxury coupes, no luxury trucks - strictly sendans). No 3er or A4 as well (Capitain Obvious: I mean, no compacts or mid-sizers from luxury brands - strictly full-size cars). "without a definition or some reference, there is no way to tell" - well, I cannot see a strick definition in the source that supports your version as well. "I also don't see on your links, a clear connection between F segment and luxury vehicle" - true, I'm still looking for such sources. Just wait. Netrat (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason the terms F-segment, D-segment etc are used is to deliberately avoid using subjective terms like luxury, family or executive. Dino246 (talk) 04:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

This does not anwser other arguments I've listed Netrat (talk) 13:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Not one of the sources you provided makes a direct equivalence between 'luxury car' and 'F-segment'. That various car magazines have a subjective annual award for the best 'luxury car' does not mean that there is an objective definition that defines what a 'luxury car' is and certainly doesn't suggest that there is an internationally accepted one. In some parts of the world even a lowly Fiesta is an extravagant luxury. Even without going to extremes, there are plenty places where the inclusion of such hedonistic accessories as electric windows and a CD player makes a car into the luxury model of the range, described perfectly legitimately as a 'luxury vehicle'. Dino246 (talk) 16:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Not one of the sources you provided makes a direct equivalence between 'luxury car' and 'F-segment. - please re-read my original message. My point was (and is) British motoring press uses "luxury car" only for largest sedans on the market. F-segment is completely different issue. Netrat (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That various car magazines have a subjective annual award for the best 'luxury car' does not mean that there is an objective definition that defines what a 'luxury car' is - These magazines are reliable sources when it comes to car market. Can you explain why they include luxury SUVs/hatches/estates/coupes/roadsters in different catregories thus excluding them from "luxury car" category? Netrat (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

and certainly doesn't suggest that there is an internationally accepted one. - an object does not need to be international to be listed in Wikipedia. Netrat (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You have not answered any of my arguments. I guess this is because you have no counter arguments, and it's no wonder as "Can you explain why they include luxury SUVs/hatches/estates/coupes/roadsters in different catregories thus excluding them from "luxury car" category" argument is pretty strong, but still - not answering the question is a violation of Wikipedia:ETIQUETTE rule. Netrat (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about you or your arguments or your conjecture. It's about verifiable, neutral, third party information.842U (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if you thought I was ignoring you, Netrat, I didn't see that you'd added to this debate. I still stand by my argument that the categories chosen by a couple of car magazines for their annual awards can not in any way, shape, or form be considered an accepted definition of "Luxury Vehicle". If you want to add that "Auto Express considers a luxury vehicle to be xyz" then go ahead. Dino246 (talk) 07:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If Auto Express and WhatCar? are not reliable sources when it comes to cars... what sources ARE? Netrat (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Magazines are insiders to the business, their survival depends on advertising income from manufacturers... they are not neutral in their point of view. 842U (talk) 13:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Weak argument. Like, chemists are insiders to the Chemical Industry, they are not neutral and we should not trust them when it comes to Chemistry. Netrat (talk) 08:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it would be beeter to have separate articles on luxury vehicle (term applied to any expensieve vehicle), luxury car (market segment: large sedans from premium brands) and F-segment (defined by size), but until we have such articles, all views on luxury cars should be kept in this article. Netrat (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Interwikis

Interwikis point to articles about the European F-segment (North America: luxury full-size car), not about the luxury concept in general as this article does. --NaBUru38 (talk) 00:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not with interwiki, but with the contents of THIS article. It should include F-segment information, since the truth is in most markets outside USA, "luxury car" equals "F-segment". There are two editors who have their own concept of what luxury car is (marketing term that can be applied to any vehicle of any brand and any body style), and they are pushing it in this article. They succeeded in finding a single source that supports their concept, but:

1. Only one source supports this concept
2. The article ignores the meaning of the term as used by reliable motoring press
3. There's absolutely NO consensus about the version that "marketing term that can be applied to any vehicle of any brand and any body style", as can be seen from numerous attempts to restore the old content. And Wikipedia:CONSENSUS is one of the most fundamental rules. Netrat (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that European F-segment equals North American luxury full-size car (in fact F-segment is more like simply "full-size car", however most mainstream American full-size cars are not large enough to be listed in the F-segment (for example, Dodge Intrepid was an E-segment car) while US-made luxury full size cars are larger than mainstream ones, thus "F-segment"="luxury full-size car" sounds closer to truth). If fact there WAS a major section of luxury full-size car in this article before those two came and kinda "downsized" the article. Netrat (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

2Dino

1. F-Segment and Luxury Car is THE SAME according to European Comission! You should not remove this information. I've provided enough sources that indicate that F-Segment aka Luxury Car is an official classification in Europe.
2. Reverting well-referenced edits is a major no-no and can eventually earn you a ban.
3. Not to men1tion you've reverted edits than had nothing to do with F-Segment, such as {{fact}} template.
4. If you disagree with other editors' edits, discuss first, find a consensus, edit then. That's a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Reverting is not a good way to find a consensus. Netrat (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you read your sources? They go on to say "The boundaries between segments are blurred by factors other than the size or length of cars. These factors include price, image and the amount of extra accessories. Also, the tendency to offer more options like ABS, airbags, central locking etc. in small cars further dilutes the traditional segmentation". The F-Segment is for cars such as Rolls-Royces. The BMW 3-series falls firmly into the D-Segment. There is nothing about it that is more luxurious than a Citroen C5 or Mazda 6 other than the badge, and even that I'd argue is more one of a 'sport' marque than a 'luxury' one. It is exactly this sort of arbitrary classification that we are trying to avoid here. If you're going to insist that Luxury Vehicle and F-Segment are synonymous then I'm afraid that your list of examples doesn't include a single F-Segment vehicle. You're using the EU's vague definition of F-Segment to attach some sort of objectivity to the term Luxury Vehicle and then list examples based on your own subjectivity. Dino246 (talk) 07:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying: "luxury car" = largest sedans from luxury brands. BMW 3 is not a "luxury car" according to EUC. It is a D-Segment car from luxury make. You were the one who insisted that "luxury car" is a term that should not be applied to a particular class of vehicles. Now you are saying things that are quite opposite. Netrat (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

? 2 days ago you listed the BMW3 as an example of a luxury car and today you're accusing me of inconsistency? I'm saying that "F-segment" and "Luxury Vehicle" are not synonymous. You are now agreeing with me.Dino246 (talk) 08:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

So

As now we have enough sources defining what "luxury car" is (from European Comission), I think it's time to restore AT LEAST SOME sections previously deleted Dino246 and 842U. Netrat (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

There are no sources defining what Luxury Car is. You have one source attempting to define what F-Segment is and conceding that it is ill-defined and increasingly irrelevant as a classification in the current marketplace. Defining Luxury Vehicle and attempting to objectively list examples of it is as ludicrous as defining luxury soap and granting it a Wikipedia article.Dino246 (talk) 17:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Dino, stop this childish behaviour! This is VANDALISM!

The current state of this article is an insult to anyone who knows just a little bit about cars! Your actions actually amount to vandalism!

You do seem to have a PERSONAL problem with the term "luxury", or perhaps just with the cars labeled as such.

Well, dude, there's is huge number of things on this planet whose definitions are ambiguous or not agreed upon by various individuals, but, somehow, many of those things have articles on wikipedia without being vandalised by people like you.

Your logic is unbelievable flawed! How about removing the term luxury completely from wikipedia just because you belive it's very abiguous and abstruse? According to your logic, people should be confused by any use of this term... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcos800 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

No need to get personal. I have no issue with the word luxury and I happen to know a thing or two about cars. My issue is simply with any sort of list of 'trluxury cars' because it is de facto original research and amounts to declaring open season for arguments between fans of various marques. A cursory search of Wikipedia appears to indicate that no other product, with the exception of cars, has a page dedicated to 'luxury' versions of it. Luxury apartment, luxury stereo, luxury soap, luxury suit, luxury jet, luxury drink.. all redlinks. Of course there are such things as luxury cars but who are you or I to decide what is and what isn't? It's the listing of examples that I object to because while few would argue that a Rolls-Royce isn't or that a Tata Nano was, there is a huge grey area in the middle and Wikipedia is not the place to argue about whether a BMW 3-series is more luxurious than a Ford Mondeo. There are forums for that, here we stick to facts, and the fact is that there is no accepted definition for 'luxury vehicle'.Dino246 (talk) 19:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

You should have tried harder: Luxury real estate, Luxury yacht, Luxury resort, Luxury good, Luxury box and so on...Marcos800 (talk) 13:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The issue of verifiability is central to Wikipedia articles. The cited articles are germain, if only because they highlight how little verifiable information they contain and how little verifiable information surrounds the use of the word "luxury." Aside from the Luxury real estate article, these are very poor articles by Wikipedia criteria: Luxury real estate: the article refers to a specifically defined and referenced term within specific geographic markets. Luxury yacht: the article contains two references and little verifiable information. Luxury resort: the article contains no references and no verifiable information. Luxury good: the article contains no references. Luxury box: the article contains no references.

Wikipedia isn't a repository for the conjecture of "people who know about cars." Articles are to be structured around reliable sources. Because there is no agreed threshold on "luxury car-ness" and because ascribing the descriptor to any product is itself an act of peacockery, it seems most appropriate to keep the article sober, referenced and free from the agrandizement the very word luxury suggests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.165.67.131 (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The article as it is.

Unless one of the people who impose the old article can come up with one (an article) without using a large ammount of weasel words, or saying 'Luxury Vehicle is a biased term' in fancy wording, I will continue to revert the artcle back to it's orginal state because, although it has faults, it is much more accurate than the poor excuse being presented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.67.107 (talk) 07:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no recognized "luxury vehicle" standard. Such models can be described as "high-quality car which is expensive and has many additional features"(See here). An encyclopedia article should cite sources and avoid peacock terms. Thanks! CZmarlin (talk) 19:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I am well aware of this. But, the current article doesn't even really contribute even half the information of the old article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.39.58 (talk) 21:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The old article didn't contain information, it contained original research and unreferenced, unsupported claims. The newer version is far from perfect but it has stood broadly stable for well over 12 months now after much discussion and debate and to roll back to the deeply controversial and by consensus, unacceptable version without proper discussion here is not the Wikipedia way. There is a current stable version that needs work. Please offer your contributions but do not unilaterally turn the clock back to last year's version while hiding behind an IP. See the talk above Talk:Luxury_vehicle#Rebuild_this_article there was clear consensus to abandon the old version and write a new one. If you want to help us to do that then please please do. Dino246 (talk) 21:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I over-read that consensus, I only saw the above talk in relation to it. And, the reason for my IP editing was I was just getting back into Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TLCinMD (talk • contribs)

I believe that we can restore the backbone of the old article, as long as we trim lots of weasle words, and add lots of sources. I'll push ahead for the time being and see what might result.

I think that we can base this on Consumer Guide, US News auto rankings, or other buying guides (other editors are more familiar with those in Britain and Europe), while accounting for differences in international classification.

Obviously, the goal is to keep this objective and avoid debates on opinion, otherwise Dino246 may revert it to the ultra-safe version. Maybe we could put this article on probation ? GoldDragon (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, let's try and do this, but without arbitrary, contentious and subjective examples. Dry sourced definitions, nothing more. It must be clear that there is no consensus on what a 'luxury car' is, the second we start including examples we are objectivising a subjective topic and opening the door to arguments. Is a base X3 really a luxury car? Are Aston Martins luxury cars or grand tourers? Who are we to decide..? Dino246 (talk) 18:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It is important that we acknowledge the wide variation in the meaning of "luxury vehicle" at the introduction.

We should include clear cut examples that fit both North American and European definitions, generally no major disparities in size versus price ranges, like the BMW 5-Series in the mid-luxury executive car classification, and the Mercedes-Benz S Class in the full-sized/premium luxury. There is obviously going to be considerable price variation, however its not a big deal if we look at the nameplate as a whole and its general positioning (rather than the extremes like the 4-cylinder BMW 3-series versus the M3). I recall the "big deal" the auto press made when the C-Class Sportcoupe came out in the US (first Mercedes-Benz there without standard leather seats), nonetheless as it did come from that marque it was still considered luxury. Harder examples to debate include the Lexus ES and Acura TL, which may not be easily categorized as they are priced similar to compact executive cars but more midsize regarding dimensions (considered entry-level luxury in the US but they don't exist in Europe). GoldDragon (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless there is an agreed upon metric for measuring luxury-ness of a car, the article shouldn't suggest there is such a thing. In other words, if "luxury" is a term that is merely bestowed by, for example Consumer Reports or J.D. Powers... or any other organization, without a metric or means of measuring when a car meets or doesn't meet the standard, then just leave the article like it is. 842U (talk) 20:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There is actually constructive work being done to improve this article. The "stable version" might be ultra-safe, but quite a few other editors see it as unacceptable since it is completely lacking in information. I was planning to do an overview of the North American luxury market and how it gradually evolved, obviously a European editor can do a similar thing for Europe (i.e. the problems that Lexus is facing trying to break in). Obviously, if you keep insisting on an internationally-agreed upon metric, in effect raising the bar too high, then nothing is going to get done, and I bet that other editors will keep reverting it. GoldDragon (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, and not a PR piece for automobile companies. It needs recognized sources and has to avoid peacock terms. CZmarlin (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I have the conditional support of User:Dino246 and so far I have been backing up my assertions with recognized sources. GoldDragon (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Because luxury is a perceptual, conditional and subjective attribute that can and will be understood differently by different entities, there is no standard of what constitutes the luxury-ness of a vehicle. Nor has any editor thus far offered a definition of where non-luxury ends and luxury begins. Nor is it impossible that luxury does not exist as an attribute of a vehicle itself but exists simply as the perception of the consumer. (cf. Quality)

But it is ineffectual to suggest here that sources are valid references of luxury-ness because their name is recognized — noting especially that the entities in question (e.g., Consumer Reports) don't publish criteria or methodology to define the very thing in question: luxury-ness.

To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate.842U (talk) 19:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

As you've said, there is no standard of what constitutes the luxury-ness of a vehicle, however we can acknowledge that it can and will be understood differently by different entities. By that standard, that means that there is no definition of where non-luxury ends and luxury begins, that would be like seeking the Holy Grail. GoldDragon (talk) 03:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Forbes has a good article on the several aspects of "luxury-ness" which could go in the introduction. One thing that is definitely clear is that many technological features (safety and entertainment) go into luxury vehicles first before trickling down to mass market vehicles.[35][36] GoldDragon (talk) 03:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

A clear parallel to this article is the article on Quality), which gives a broad definition and then a list of sources with very specific criteria. The list itself confirms the variety of criteria that can be used — without "making up" the list. Some editors feel it's ok to de-stabilize the luxury-vehicle article by dumping unorganized, un-sourced, unreferenced conjecture into this article. The "10" reason that Forbes gives for buying a "luxury car" are essentially covered in the intro to the article as it currently exists.

To improve the article, find entities that publish criteria to define the term luxury-ness when ascribed to a vehicle. In the meantime, the article is fair, concise and accurate. 842U (talk) 11:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The analogy with Quality is inappropriate, as a better parallel is Sports car. I pretty sure that Mercedes or BMW don't follow a "guide" when designing their cars, rather it is more influenced by their competition as well as the market. I understand that you've had problems in the past with some editors, however this is organized, sourced, and referenced. GoldDragon (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

"Organized, sourced, and referenced" doesn't matter nearly as much as what is "organized, sourced, and referenced." Conjecture can be easily organized and sourced — as in the case of the sports car article — which is cited for inaccuracy pertaining to the very characteristics of the cars the article refers to. In other words, that article fell into the same pot hole some editors keep steering this article into. What the article needs are discreet definitions of "luxury vehicle," not inaccurate conjecture. No need to keep arguing the same thing; the article is no place for peacock terms, conjecture and original research. 842U (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll let you take care of the discreet definitions, however this article needs a lot more than just that. And as auto guides and the motoring press are not peacock terms, conjecture and original research, then we can finally move forward. GoldDragon (talk) 21:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Auto guides and the motoring press are not good sources for an encyclopedia article about "luxury vehicle". This is because automakers feed the press a lot of BS (Boastful Superlatives) who then work hard to write articles adding even more BS to describe their products. The press earns credits from the hands that feed them. Add to this the fact that potential and actual purchasers of luxury vehicles have an insatiable appetite for this type of BS. Classifying a particular vehicle as "luxury" is also designed to easily make it superior to other vehicles even if the differences are superficial. Using self-serving BS in marketing claims is a very, very old invention that helps sell products, as well as fuel the fan base with "bragging" rights to which vehicles are "luxury". On the other hand, it is more difficult for most marketers to be humble and genuine. That is why an encyclopedia article has to avoid falling into the trap of using traditional marketing superlatives and hyperbole. — CZmarlin (talk) 17:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Consumer Reports purchases their own vehicles to avoid any conflict of interest. Aside from that, though, it is clear that the buying guides are there to give potential customers information, rather than necessarily promoting a particular marque. I don't see any marketing superlatives and hyperbole. GoldDragon (talk) 16:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is nearly irrelevant, like arguing with a table. Sorry, not interested anymore.842U (talk) 19:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

There is only two editors, 842U and CZmarlin, that agree with the "stable" (if also completely devoid of content) version of the article. Surely this is not anywhere close to consensus. GoldDragon (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

the article with those examples has opinions and is somehow not npov... --Typ932 ^T·C 06:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

How is having examples NPOV ? I'm not picking borderline debatable examples here, as a BMW 5 Series is clearly a mid-level luxury car by both North American and European classifications, with regard to both size and price (excluding the BMW M5). I think that these editors are just blanket reverting and not even reading any of the changes to the article.GoldDragon (talk) 17:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

example cars from one country only seems somehow npov, in my opinion... --Typ932 ^T·C 20:09, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The reverts are to the most stable article without puffery and statements that are sourced from unreliable cites, such as blogs. Even your own edits claim that: "I've never heard of any minivan being called a luxury vehicle" which contradicts numerous sources that describe several models as "luxury" minivans. Where is a recognized definition that some brand "is clearly a mid-level luxury"? Therefore, you cannot insist on having an article that contains marketing superlatives and peacock terms. Thank you — CZmarlin (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm picking specific examples such as the BMW 5 Series since they are recognized on both sides of the Atlantic as a mid-luxury car. (Other editors are free to add more examples, such as the Lexus GS, as it has a comparable size and price specification). I removed the minivan reference since that is not recognized in Europe (they have compact MPVs or smaller vehicles but mostly made by mass market manufacturers), and nor is it made by a luxury marque.

What is a marketing superlative and peacock term in this article ? GoldDragon (talk) 17:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There is now additional referenced research about "luxury" models in automobile history in "the article as it is". This will avoid the edits that include speculative claims about individual models and how they are classified as "luxury" in various markets. The very descriptions of new market segments, such as "entry-level luxury", are pure peacock terms. The fact that there is "price-overlapping with well-equipped non-luxury cars" means that these "marketing" descriptors are hyperbole and undefined BS. Most importantly, there is no general agreement as to what is a "luxury marque" .. in part because there have been many during various eras in the history of automobiles. Most of the current brands have become established in the minds of some consumers because of their targeted advertising and marketing. For example, the so-called "luxury" divisions of mass-market Japanese automakers have been built on skillful promotion and differentiation of their products. Specific "luxury" versions are perceived by some of the public to be superior to the automaker's other lines, even if the actual differences are minor. In summary, an encyclopedia article about luxury vehicles must avoid the BS (Boastful Superlatives) that is found in the descriptions of individual "luxury-type" car marques and models. CZmarlin (talk) 19:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

We editors didn't invent the term "entry-level luxury", so it isn't a peacock term as you think it is. As long as it has been used frequently in the press and auto guides during the last decade, that gives it legitimacy. It isn't necessary to have a definition on what constitutes "luxury" and "non-luxury", as "price-overlapping with well-equipped non-luxury cars" was a fact noted by an auto journalist when he reported on the sales of the auto industry.

Yeah, I acknowledge that there is some skillful promotion and differentiation for luxury divisions of Japanese automakers, however it must be noted that a Lexus *is* manufactured to a higher standard than a Toyota.

GoldDragon (talk) 23:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not a question of who "invented" a term. The fact remains that descriptions such as "near-luxury" are not encyclopedic, precisely because they are undefined. They are peacock terms that even auto journalists will argue about. For example, the articles in auto magazines that describe the new Hyundai luxury models as true "luxury" cars at mass-market prices. Your reference to the Dawson book is interesting because he provides the background to the development of the Lexus. However, the book is a flawed "love story" designed written for for Toyota enthusiasts lacking proper rigor and distance from the subject. Once again, please do no not include superfluous marketing and promotional material in the article. An encyclopedia article is not to do "the job of auto journalists, automakers, and salesmen". Please refrain from adding undefined marketing terms and superlatives. Wikipedia is not the forum to promote "luxury" vehicle brands. Thank you CZmarlin (talk) 04:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Because Hyundai luxury models may be the subject of debate, I have not used that as an example. The reason why only select nameplates have been included is NOT because they are being promoted, rather it is because they clearly fit in for both North American and European classifications.

I understand that you are disgusted about luxury vehicles because it is partially due to marketing, however this is not an acceptable reason to be reverting the article. Luxury cars are generally ahead of mass market cars with regard to technology and comfort, plus their sales have generally been more resillient to economic downturns.

Again, please stop throwing around accusations of peacock terms and superlatives. GoldDragon (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

GoldDragon, Please stop reverting the article. Your additions have not achieved consensus. Thank you — CZmarlin (talk) 19:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be an edit war -- we can ask that the article be locked.842U (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be good to lock down the article. It seems that GoldDragon is the only contributor that insists on including opinions and unverifiable claims. Thank you! CZmarlin (talk) 20:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Dino246 (talk) 04:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll take out the classifications for now, the rest of the material should not be contentious. GoldDragon (talk) 17:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

RFC

Comment: This article is one of those few articles that I would imagine to be a complete nightmare, so I will try to be as impartial as possible. Global References should be greatly expanded as this is, quite possibly, the only non-contentious part of the article. Characteristics should be removed entirely and stay removed else the entire section will simply devolve into he-said-she-said with people using increasingly worse and worse cites as justification for including their definition. History and sales if done correctly good be quite an informative section; it should focus on general trends rather than individual cars or brands. I will also suggest that its use as a marketing term should be included; perhaps in history or it's own section, but this should focus on the history of the use of the term Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved user. This is a difficult RfC to participate in, because many questions seem to be posed at the same time. My only comment at the moment is that "Global references" is an odd title for the section. "Definitions" would make more sense, and the section would still be laid out by country or region. Could you make use of standard histories of motoring or of car manufacturing to say how the concept of "luxury vehicle" has developed over the ages? Such history books will include examples. Illustrations would be helpful in the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Currently, the characteristics section is not a he-said-she-said, but given the potential for abuse, we'll monitor it carefully in order to control what goes in it. Rather than have editors use their own definition, they should use a recognized source such as Forbes or Consumer Guide. There is definitely lots of material on the front-engine rear-wheel drive platforms and how they are no longer used for mass market cars but still on premium cars. GoldDragon (talk) 18:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, I would like to be as general as possible rather than specifically referred to an individual car or brand, however the sources often track particular marques rather than the overall state of German or British luxury imports. I do use more generalizations in the characteristics section, using a specific example only when required. GoldDragon (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

GoldDragon: You have once more added a considerable amount of "opinion" to this article that is best characterized as Boastful Superlatives (BS) with self-serving automotive journalists repeating the automaker's marketing departments' peacock and weasel terms. The referenced general description of the "luxury car" is not a "debate", but a well-researched definition by an expert author. Although you may think of it as "debatable", it is a far better definition of these vehicles than many "debatable" examples that you have included in the various "luxury car" market segments. There are no official definitions that have been established by government agencies or respected trade associations. Your "it is a debatable opinion" reasoning means that all the examples of "luxury" vehicles and market segments are "debatable". This is because the "luxury car" term itself is highly variable, perceptual, conditional and a subjective attribute that is understood differently by everyone (as per the previous discussions noted above). I hope you can see why a cited description of these types of vehicles by a reliable source (see WP:SOURCES, does not belong in a separate "debate" section. Thank you! CZmarlin (talk) 02:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Premium compact segment

Major sections of this article are full of peacock and weasel terms promoting brands and models. Now we have a contributor who insists on including a section describing "premium compacts". It is full of Boastful Superlatives (BS) to describe the vehicles that simply repeat the automaker's marketing departments. Furthermore, claiming automotive journalists as "reliable sources" is just rehashing the self-serving prose of automotive journalists that serve each automaker's publicity efforts. The proliferation of market segments and sub-segments using the term "luxury" is so overused that it no longer has any value. "Luxury" is now used to refer to every possible model made by every automaker. However, one of the sources in to support the "premium compact segment" (linked here) does not even use the term "luxury" to describe these small, but very expensive for their size and class vehicles. So why include them in this article? Wikipedia guidelines do not allow advertising and promotion. Thank you, CZmarlin (talk) 18:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

European size segment

Consider adding in the first paragraph, that these cars are also known as the F-segment across Europe.

Chrysler 300C

Chrysler markets its 300C as a full-size vehicle, not a mid-size. It says on http://www.chrysler.com/en/2011/300/ that it is part of the "Upper Large Car Segment". Plus, the AWD 300C weighs 4513 lbs, more than the 4409 lbs of an Audi A8, which is considered a large car. Ekcrbe (talk) 02:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

That the Audi A8 is a thoroughly engineered lightweight aluminium car does not make everything heavier and less advanced "luxury". Dino246 (talk) 21:56, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Range Rover

Of all four-wheel-drive vehicles, the first luxury one was the Range Rover, the design that started the brand, which had an aluminium V-8 engine (with air conditioning) and interior fittings such as in a British luxury car (wood and leather elegantly applied). It also was the only car ever displayed in the Louvre because it was considered that beautiful. British people know this. Why don't they put it on the page? 4.154.251.32 (talk) 01:58, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe the honours for first luxury 4WD goes to the Jeep Wagoneer in 1963.  Stepho  talk  13:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

volvo s40!!! Hyundai Equus (High-end luxury car) !!!

volvo s40 is never meant to be a luxury car, it is considered an alternative to Toyota Camry in most markets including some 3rd world countries and who classified Hyundai Equus as a high end luxury vechile, it should be a Mid-luxury car at best after all, it's a hyundai with a generic mando suspension and until 2009 it had a front-wheel drive engines with a weak torque (not a real luxury car IMO) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedabady2005 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Are the following cars executive or full-size

The Ford Crown Victoria, Chrysler 300, Holden VF Commodore, and Hyundai Genesis. Noscamsouttherebeinglovedby2013 (talk) 18:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)