Talk:Richard Burton/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Racism and anti-semitism

In addition to his admissions of bisexuality, surely the article should mention Burton's overt racism and anti-semitism? (92.11.142.51 (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC))

For goodness sake, go away. Deb (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Why? Haven't you read what Marlon Brando had to say about Burton's extremely racist behaviour? (92.11.142.51 (talk) 20:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC))

Brando's dead, so he can't be sued for libel. Wikipedia can. Deb (talk) 21:07, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Burton was both a racist and an anti-semite and there are lots of sources to prove it. And since Burton is long dead, none of his relatives can sue this site. (92.11.142.51 (talk) 21:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC))

Ah, the anonymous "lots of sources" again. Deb (talk) 11:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

No, there are plenty of sources such as Brando's own autobiography in which he records Burton's extremely racist words, or Burton's brother Graham Jenkins' book "My Brother Richard Burton" in which he recalls Burton deliberately using the N-word in South Africa to cause offence. It might also be worth pointing out that filming "The Wild Geese" in South Africa under the apartheid regime was incredibly controversial in itself. (92.12.54.231 (talk) 14:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC))

Everything Burton did was controversial, and deliberately so. It got him lots of publicity. Some people even believed he meant it. Deb (talk) 17:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to start new sections in the article entitled "Bisexuality" and "Allegations of Racism and Anti-semitism" in order to present a balanced picture of the subject. (92.10.219.56 (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC))

Or that might imbue these particular bugbears of yours with an additional significance far beyond what they deserve. Surely a section headed "Controversy" is quite adequate to contain all the accusations made about Burton both during his lifetime and since his death? Deb (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Somebody needs to fix awkward phrase

"his entire spinal column was coated with crystallised alcohol and had to be rebuilt in a delicate operation (to be replaced by his friend Richard Harris)" Sounds like the spinal column was replaced.

I think it was then (in April 1981) that his kidneys and liver were found to be damaged. (92.11.170.208 (talk) 18:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC))

old vandalism still intact about spine and "crystallised alcohol"

{{editsemiprotected}} spine was coated in "crystallised alcohol"? This was vandalism from 20 March 2009 and is still there. The earlier version, that he left the play early due to a back injury, is all that is needed.

Not necessarily vandalism; there are some Ghits on this; nonetheless, since I find it very dubious (alcohol simply does not crystalize at body temperature), and it is unsourced,  Done. Tim Song (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

There's a particular vandal who really likes this article, so it probably was vandalism - any unsourced negative statements added here should just be reverted post haste. Mind you, I managed to miss that particular item myself. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is true, read Penny Junor's biography. Burton's spine had to be rebuilt in April 1981 because it was entirely coated in crystallised alcohol. His liver and kidneys were found to be damaged at the same time. The mythical "back injury" was the official explanation at the time, in an attempt to disguise the true severity of his illness. (92.11.33.26 (talk) 19:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC))

Just needs a citation. Deb (talk) 14:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the biographies by Graham Jenkins and Penny Junor mention this. It's well known that Burton considered retiring completely after the operation, since he could no longer get insurance for movies. The surgery was for degenerative disease of the cervical spine, affecting all the cervical vertebrae, but it was indeed his alcoholism whichg had caused this.(LouisWalshFan (talk) 14:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC))

I checked Junor's biography, she mentions that Burton's spinal column was "entirely coated" in crystallised alcohol, and that he could only have the operation after putting on weight at the hospital, since during the "Camelot" tour his weight had dropped from twelve stone to an alarmingly low nine stone. (92.9.166.4 (talk) 02:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC))

I don't mean that I want the citation, I just mean that it should be added to the article. Deb (talk) 12:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The article can't be edited at the moment. (92.15.7.98 (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC))

I've taken the protection off so you can edit it if you wish. If you registered as a user, you would have been able to edit it any time. Deb (talk) 19:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I see the mythical "back injury" information is still there. Why does the article still contain false information? (RossMacCormick (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC))

Because you haven't removed it! Deb (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

If it is in the sources mentioned above, which I don't have access to, it should be cited. I'll add some tags. – ukexpat (talk) 18:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The Golden Turkey Awards

"The book awards the fictional "Golden Turkey Awards" to films that the Medveds feel are poor in quality, along with directors and actors judged to have created a chronically inept body of work. Readers will not necessarily agree with all their choices; however, the book almost exclusively showcases low-budget obscurities and exploitation films. A notable exception is the selection of Richard Burton as the worst actor ever, notwithstanding his star status and seven Academy Award nominations for acting; the authors justified their choice by assessing the cumulative merit of his good performances as being far outweighed by the sheer number of bad performances." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.228.88 (talk) 07:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Pain in the neck

It is said that Burton had a severe pain in the neck and had to wear a neck brace while rehearsing for "1984". Does anyone know what was wrong, did he have throat cancer? (RossMacCormick (talk) 13:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC))

Semi-protected?

Is this article semi-protected? I wasn't logged in and noticed that I couldn't edit anything. Shouldn't there be a template to that effect if it is? - DevOhm ^Talk 14:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is and no, you shouldn't - you should get a message when you try to edit it. Deb (talk) 12:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Plot details of "The Robe

The Marcellus character (Burton) is not converted by his wife (Jean Simmons). She actually follows his lead. I am changing the page to correct it. --Tony (talk) 20:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number (about 100) selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Penfding changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 23:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

Knighthood?

Why does the article say he was awarded a knighthood? Also, it is the government that gives honours, not the monarch. (92.11.217.30 (talk) 17:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for pointing that out. The inaccuracy seems to have been introduced during September and evidently no one noticed! Deb (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you know whether it was Harold Wilson or Edward Heath who appointed Burton as a CBE? (92.9.89.93 (talk) 13:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC))

No, but I'd guess it was Wilson, as he'd have had the New Year's Honours and Queen's Birthday honours in which to do it. Deb (talk) 17:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Strictly speaking such honours are conferred by the monarch on the recommendation of the government of the day. – ukexpat (talk) 18:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The monarch cannot refuse any request though. (92.12.20.228 (talk) 23:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC))

One other thing - Burton was conferred Commander of the British Empire, which is an honour but not a knighthood. Ellsworth (talk) 02:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

That would be Commander of the Order of the British Empire. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Quite. That is why I am reluctant, as an amateur Anglophile, to edit on the topic. But I figure, be bold and someone will get it right! Ellsworth (talk) 03:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

This talk page is too long

I added {{tl|archiveme}} to the top of the page because the page is obviously too long. --Gh87 (talk) 06:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done Automated archiving implemented. --Kslotte (talk) 11:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Role in Monty Python and the Holy Grail

IIRC the Green Knight whose arms and legs were hacked off, but refused to 'yield' was played by a different Richard Burton who was a local [Silversmith] ? John Cleese mentioned it in his DVD voice-over ... Worth disambiguating, if not notable enough to be worth creating his own page ? --195.137.93.171 (talk) 01:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Can't see any reason for mentioning this here or giving him his own article (unless he did something else of note). Deb (talk) 07:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Bisexuality

Why is Burton's bisexuality not mentioned at all in the article? The article is apparently tagged under the GLBT collection. Burton admitted to being bisexual in an interview, he didn't 'try it once and didn't like it', he chose to have many same gender sexual experiences, at a time when it was illegal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.251.171 (talk) 22:49, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We can't include any mention of this without a reliable source saying he was, at one point or another, bisexual. Do you have a source? - SummerPhD (talk) 00:26, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

More directly, Richard Burton: prince of players by Michael Munn clearly states quite the opposite:"'I gave it a try once.... Intimacy with a man. How can you know you don't like caviar if you never tried it?' He didn't like it." p. 25. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

It's well known that he had sex with Philip Burton, the gay teacher who adopted him, and Emlyn Williams. (HantersSpade (talk) 20:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC))

Which, if sourced, still would not make him bisexual. A reliable source saying he was bisexual would make him bisexual. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It's nonsense - Philip Burton was a teacher and would never have risked such a relationship. Deb (talk) 08:13, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It was very different in those days. Even Burton's family knew the relationship was sexual. Philip was considered an outcast because he was 40 and had never married. There was also much speculation over Richard's relationship with Brook Williams.(92.7.16.142 (talk) 12:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC))

Here's a radical suggestion: How about if we discuss sources for these claims, rather than this pointless "Nuh-uh!" "Yuh-huh!" "Is not!" "Is too!" back and forth? - 13:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Philip Burton was a highly respected man locally, and also worked for the BBC. Deb (talk) 16:50, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Still no source provided for any of this. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

This page is for discussing improvements to the article. Without sources, we have nothing to add. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Graham Jenkins' book mentioned that the entire family were very suspicious of the true nature of the relationship between Richard and the middle-aged homosexual Philip Burton. (92.20.40.157 (talk) 18:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC))

I have read the book. For a start, Philip Burton was not middle-aged - he was in this thirties, only twenty years older than Richard Jenkins, not even old enough to adopt him legally. It may well be true that Philip was gay, and it may equally be true that the family were suspicious of his motives, but to assume that he took advantage of his position to seduce a heterosexual youth who was one of his pupils is quite without foundation. Deb (talk) 08:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Philip Burton was 39 or 40, that counts as middle-aged. Was Brook Williams the man Richard was referring to in his 1975 interview? (92.7.19.128 (talk) 17:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC))

No idea. But Philip would only have been in his early thirties when he started teaching Richard. Deb (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Crystallised alcohol...

Can this be reworded? I see that this has been discussed previously and it was apparently left in because of a reference in a biography by Penny Junor. 'Cristallisation of the entire spinal column by alcohol' is not a known medical entity, regardless of what a biographer may have written. Perhaps rewording could be placed making this phrase seem less definitive. News articles from the time stated he had a cervical laminectomy due to severe degenerative changes, which makes much more sense medically. I don't see how mention in a biography, presumably by someone who is not a physician, should merit this misinformation staying in here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebengreene (talk • contribs) 18:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

As it stands, the citation isn't even specific enough to source what's here. It needs a page number at the very least. I wouldn't be opposed to removing it if it is not improved. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 17:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 04:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Burton, Richard (Cleopatra).jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Death

I believe it is important to mention that not only did his final wife ignore the wishes of him to be buried with Elizabeth Taylor, but also his dearest wish to have been buried in Wales where he was born. Burton's family was outraged at the fact that she chose to have him buried in Switzerland instead of back home in Pontrhydyfen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.131.134 (talk) 15:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Evidence? Deb (talk) 19:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Some people really can't get over the fact that Burton and Taylor were divorced, TWICE and Taylors (dubious) wishes had no bearing on his final wife. Nor should they. She was buried in a Jewish cemetery in the US and he in a Christian graveyard. Taylors wishes were irrelevant in this case. She was not his wife after all! "Burton's family was outraged at the fact that she chose to have him buried in Switzerland instead of back home in Pontrhydyfen" where he had left in the 40s and CHOSE to live in Switzerland. Manxwoman (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Any possible moves of this page

Need to be discussed first. I'm just a "pass by" admin here. :) So I don't have any opinion on any actual moves. But moving this to Richard Burton (disambiguation) caused 800 pages or so to point to the wrong page. That's too significant for it to be without discussion. --User:Woohookitty ^{Disamming fool!} 09:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

You're right, and it has been discussed (at length) previously so there is a precedent. Deb (talk) 10:59, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Previous discussion is at Talk:Richard_Burton/Archive_2#Requested_move. William Avery (talk) 11:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think the notability of the explorer/writer is greater. He is normally called Richard Burton, and writers feel no need to distinguish him from the actor.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Many people would agree with you, but, until you request the page move and begin another debate so as to assess whether there is consensus, you will not be able to move the page. Deb (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I personally think "Richard Burton" should be a DAB page, and both the actor and the explorer should be differentiated in the title. But yes, it needs to be discussed, and if agreed on it needs to be properly organised (with a bot, I imagine) so that all links to the pages go to the right place. --Lobo (talk) 17:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

suffereed ongoing back pain and a dependence upon pain

"suffereed" is a typo and "dependence upon pain" should be "dependence upon painkillers" presumably, but not knowing if that's true or not I figured just to mention it here rather than to make the edit...

"...notoriously heavy drinker, Burton suffereed ongoing back pain and a dependence upon pain..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.235.46 (talk) 13:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Accuracy and encyclopedic tone

There is a lot of good, well-cited information here, but also uncited, fannish gossip. For basic biographical facts, I would suggest starting with Burtons official bio, and his official website: http://www.richardburton.com/burton_biog.pdf. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Going by the usual considerations of what constitutes a "reliable source", I'm not sure that the website would be considered a suitable reference. Deb (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, for subjective matters, I'm completely in agreement. For basic things like the spellings of family members' names and when they were born, the official site seems like the horse's mouth. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Burton's ambiguous attitude to Churchill.

In the section "Personal Life", final paragraph it states that there is a citation needed "Burton got along well with Churchill when he met him at a play in London,[citation needed] and kept a bust of him on his mantelpiece."

The source of this is I believe Burton's interview with Michael Parkinson in 1974. You can see the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcSuQf4RZWs

In this Burton recounts his meeting with Churchill while playing Hamlet at the Old Vic and he appears to recall the meeting with fondness and speaks about Churchill in a respectful manner.

Maybe somebody could update this if they agree it is correct. I am not able to amend the article myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.51.238.15 (talk) 11:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

You would be able to edit if you were an autoconfirmed user with an account instead of an anonymous IP. We would love to have you as a regular contributor. Deb (talk) 11:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a link to the Parkinson interview conducted in 1974. In it Burton clearly had fond memories of Churchill and did not show any sense of disrespect or animosity as suggested by the information stated in this section: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcSuQf4RZWs. This section requires some revisions. Sylvia Ford (talk) 07:54, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

It certainly needs more references. I suspect some of the content (such as the alleged sonnet-quoting contest with Robert Kennedy) come from Burton's autobiography, but the articles on Churchill may be more difficult to trace.Deb (talk) 10:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Grammy Award Winner (1975)

This section needs fixing:

Grammy Award for Best Album for Children for narrating an adaptation of The Little Prince in 1976. 99.129.112.89 (talk) 00:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)