Talk:Covert United States foreign regime change actions

Sources again

There is a line in the Nicaraguan piece that states "The Sandinistas have been accused of killing thousands by Nicaragua's Permanent Commission on Human Rights". This is taken from a 1987 book. This organisation was funded by the American government thru the National Endowment for Democracy a CIA front. Their figures at that time are not even seriously worth considering in my opinion.Zrdragon12 (talk) 06:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Should be included if notable but the American funding should be mentioned. Hows the RightWinger's sockpuppet investigation of you coming along by the way? JTBX (talk) 07:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

It can be left in but as you say it needs to be mentioned that they are funded by what is basically the CIA, their figures do not tally with figures released by Amnesty and others at the time. I do not know what is happening with the sockpuppet thing, I am confident that it will come to nothing because the guy who brought it up is ... I should write something here that not very complimentary but that is against the rules. Zrdragon12 (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Well then good job so far, I hope we can work together some time. I am currently thinking of working on the Chile 1973 coup article, it has a lot of problems. JTBX (talk) 09:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Well you know where to find me. Chile 1973 is interesting. I was reading the page for the Sandinista earlier on, seems it has been written by Ronald Reagan and I thought he was dead.Zrdragon12 (talk) 09:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Niger/Mali

These were both promptly removed by GabrielF. The Washington Post and BBC are reliable if embarrassing sources for these entries. I did not properly cite FPIF and I will fix that. I am assuming that this was the cause for the TW deletion of both new entries. I'm sure the massive amount of deletion in the history of this article is just responsible community involvement. Jgmoneill (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The issue is not that the Washington Post or the BBC are reliable, the issue is that they are not saying what you claim they are saying. In the Mali case, the Post does say that Capt. Sanogo received military training in the United States, however, it does not say that the coup he led was sponsored by covert military action. To include a section on Mali in this article, based solely on the fact that Sanogo received training in the United States, is to imply that his coup was a covert American regime change action. The cited source does not support this. Similarly, the BBC article discusses American military operations in the Sahel region, but it does not mention the coup in Niger. To use this as a source in a section implying that the coup in Niger was a covert regime change action by the United States is misleading and original research. GabrielF (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your response and will clarify. Jgmoneill (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

GabrielF Concerning Mali; Does "accidental" Regime Change count if the US is officially "embarrassed"? I am debating on whether or not to go for this time-sink, because it appears you have me (and any genuine +contributor) in a logic-trap over the whole premise of this article. Jgmoneill (talk) 01:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by accidental regime change or by whether something counts. In general, Wikipedia doesn't publish original theories or analysis. You would need a reliable secondary source that identifies the Mali coup as an example of covert US foreign regime change. GabrielF (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Sonogo benefited extensively from theInternational Military Education and Trainingprogram among others and used that training to depose President Amadou Toumani Touré. This article states "Regime change has been attempted through direct involvement of U.S. operatives, the funding and training of insurgency groups within these countries, anti-regime propaganda campaigns, coup d'états, and other activities..." Despite the US's official stance of the coup being "unfortunate" (a vague term used by Hillary Clinton, as acting Secretary of State, to describe the coup), Sonogo was in fact sponsored by the United States by virtue of his training. Despite the official US denial of responsibility for Sonogo's actions, it has been well documented that he was funded and enabled by a host of training programs on US soil and that he did indeed initiate a coup successful in Mali. If the Malian coup does not qualify for this article about covert regime change, I suggest the word "covert" be removed from the title of the article and replaced with "official". Jgmoneill (talk) 18:36, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

"Dictator" or "Leader"?

I noticed that certain leaders--like the right-wing Trujillo and Diem--are described as "dictators," whereas the left-wing Castro is referred to only as a "leader." Now, I think that South Vietnam under Diem was considerably less repressive than Cuba under Castro, but this is a serious issue that merits more consideration. What is Wikipedia policy regarding how to describe such leaders? Do a large number of reliable sources not describe Castro as a tyrant?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The term leader is neutral but non-specific and potentially confusing if it's not clarified. For instance, President Fidel Castro and President Barak Obama both hold the same title and are leaders of nations, but lead different types of government. Both tyrant and dictator are descriptive words used to classify a leader based on ones perspective. A reliable source should avoid using that type of language. To illustrate the concept, here is an example using your own argument:

According to someone, "Israeli Leader Benjamin Netanyahu is a tyrannical war-mongering dictator who was undoubtedly involved in the assassination of former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin." I'm sure we all agree that's not a NPOV. Jgmoneill (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Just use their official title. In the case of a ton of titles and/or excessively wordy or theatrical use common sense when shortening them down. If a reader wants to find out more about the specifics of a person's position within a state or the nature of their government they can find out on the parent biography. Try to avoid characterizations requiring substantial referencing, this isn't the place to fight it out. Also understand this article is a magnet for politics and agenda editing. You'll get a lot of both anti-american leftists and the black helicopter wary crowd here. TomPointTwo (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, even though I'm sure many Westerners might think of them as tyrants, I changed Diem, Trujillo, Qasim, and Marcos to either "President" or "Prime Minster".TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:36, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you’re falsely assuming there’s a difference. ^^ It’s the same thing, depending on if the writer thinks his side gained benefits from it or not. — 87.79.48.238 (talk) 15:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Ukraine too.

I remember that the “orange revolution” was done in much the same way. The “protesters” were fake, like in Iran’s case… agents, paid people, brought in in buses, … with the cameras always filming in a way to make it look much bigger.

It was Russia vs. USA again. One candidate/puppet for each. So the competitor was just as much fake and staged.

— 87.79.48.238 (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

If you have sources and reliable articles to point to, please add them. While I have seen enough documented cases around the world to realize this is entirely possible (CIA or others organizing the "spontaneous" opposition etc) that is not enough, one needs sources. If you have time, do a google search, and see what you can find to verify so only properly cited is used. Thanks. Harel (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Evidence of U.S. involvement?

Upon examination of the sources present, it appears to me that the only people alleging U.S. involvement are members of the Venezuelan government or ardent conspiracy theorists. I'm currently working on a rewrite of the main article, 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt. Covert United States foreign regime change actions should only include verifiable actions, not allegations of U.S. involvement—especially when the allegations come from state-run propaganda sources that regularly scapegoat the U.S.

I've included the text I removed from the mainspace below:

Venezuela 2002

Main article: 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt

In 2002, Washington is claimed to have approved and supported a coup against the Venezuelan government. Senior officials, including Special Envoy to Latin America Otto Reich and convicted Iran-contra figure and George W. Bush "democracy 'czar'" Elliott Abrams, were allegedly part of the plot. Top coup plotters, including Pedro Carmona, the man installed during the coup as the new president, began visits to the White House months before the coup and continued until weeks before the putsch. The plotters were received at the White House by the man President George W. Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Special Envoy Otto Reich. It has been claimed by Venezuelan news sources that Reich was the U.S. mastermind of the coup.

Former U.S. Navy intelligence officer Wayne Madsen told the British newspaper The Guardian that American military attachés had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to explore the possibility of a coup. "I first heard of Lieutenant Colonel James Rogers [the assistant military attaché now based at the U.S. embassy in Caracas] going down there last June [2001] to set the ground", Mr. Madsen reported, adding: "Some of our counter-narcotics agents were also involved." He claims the U.S. Navy assisted with signals intelligence as the coup played out and helped by jamming communications for the Venezuelan military, focusing on jamming communications to and from the diplomatic missions in Caracas. The U.S. embassy dismissed the allegations as "ridiculous".

Bush Administration officials and anonymous sources acknowledged meeting with some of the planners of the coup in the several weeks prior to April 11, but have strongly denied encouraging the coup itself, saying that they insisted on constitutional means. Because of allegations, Sen. Christopher Dodd requested a review of U.S. activities leading up to and during the coup attempt. A U.S. State Department Office of Inspector General report found no "wrongdoing" by U.S. officials either in the State Department or in the U.S. Embassy.

FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Though I haven't read that one, the sourced allegations of Madsen are certainly worth including. I did find this:

* Venezuela coup linked to Bush team Specialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President

officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it,

So here the sources are not just the Venezuelan government (or it's "propaganda sources" which I find interesting you find have "scapegoated" Washington but not the reverse, not Washington scapegoating the Venezuelan government as a dictatorship no matter how many elections that outside observers verified, were won. It's not like Chavez's brother was the governor of a state and used that control to get Chavez in power (think Florida, 2000...had a Chavez brother done that, imagine the screams of a totalitarian leftist banaba republic we would have heard..!)

Lastly uncontroversially, the U.S. supported the coup when it was in progress, and openly admits it: uncontroversially, it immediately recognized the coup as a legitimate government. Not only did other countries not immediately do it, no other OAS state at all, other than the U.S., recognized it, and in the immediate aftermath of a coup in the first few days, that makes a huge difference to how likely it is to succeed.

Military power matters, people's demonstrations matter, but also, international recognition (or lack thereof) matters quite a lot. So this certainly counts as supporting the coup, not just "after the fact" - a year later would have been "after the fact", maybe a month later one could argue was "not supporting the coup but only after the fact" but in the immediate hours and days when everything is fluid, to declare support for the "legitimacy" of the coup government as no other OAS government did, and as others condemned, that is supporting the coup before it is written in stone (ultimately, it never did get 'written in stone' and was undone). If the Soviet Union or today's Russia or China had done the same, this alone would be something we would (reasonably) consider "support for the coup". And that is as I said, not even contested by anyone - it was a public statement by the U.S. government that was in countless press articles - support for the coup plotters while things were still fluid in those first critical hours. See also Guardian article. Hopefully this can be updated both here, and on the separate article on the 2002 coup attempt, if someone has time to incorporate these two with citations. Harel (talk) 05:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

And equally so, obviously, if a Chinese or Russian "Former Navy intelligence officer" was quoted in the Guardian or similar newspaper as asserting that Russia or China was involved in supporting coup plotters, jamming communications etc, that would be something we would consider (again, rightly) as "this merits inclusion in the article" on Chinese or Russian covert actions etc (along with, yes, including the official Russian or Chinese authorities saying the allegation is "ridiculous" also included, for balance, of course..) Harel (talk) 06:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

To original subject: sorry to inform you, but Jimmy Carter is not an "ardent conspiracy theorist" or "propaganda source"... he is in fact a notable source, like several of the others who are referenced in this article as well as the one on the coup itself. Try again. 71.167.107.243 (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Sources That Don't Refer At All to the Subject Matter

There is a phrase in the Ghana section which says that claims of CIA involvement may have been based on Soviet propaganda. The reference cited mentions Christopher Andrew's book "The World Was Going Our Way" specifically pg. 452-453. If you look at those pages through Google Books, you find that these pages don't at all refer to Kwame Nkrumah. Those pages refer to the FNLA (Angolan National Front). I'm going to delete that phrase and its source. If someone can find an actual source for the claim. I welcome them to post it.Mavriksfan11 (talk) 12:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

A quick check on Google books shows that the book does, indeed, discuss the KGB misinformation which deceived Nkrumah (pg. 435).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

How did the KGB spread these claims? Would be worth explaining this somewhere -A1candidate (talk) 18:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)