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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 70.167.170.2 (talk) at 20:45, 3 January 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Error

(Sorry for my english) It is write : Today, reformulated poppers containing isobutyl nitrite are sold under brand names such as RUSH,[1][4] Locker Room,[1][4] Snappers,[1][48] and Liquid Gold.[1] So on the webstite of Liquid Gold, it is write that Isobutyl is cancerous, and prohibited since 2007. http://www.liquidgoldaromas.co.uk/contact.php This is the directive Eu: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ%3AL%3A2006%3A033%3A0028%3A0081%3Aen%3APDF I have read a mail on a forum from RAM (Jungle juice brand), it was write that new formula is only ISOPROPYL, no ISOBUTYL. http://www.junglejuice.org/Aromas/aromas/JUNGLE-JUICE-25ml--57/ But on this website from RUSH it is write ISOBUTYL : http://www.rush-poppers.org/ If I understand it is a resellers, the makers is PWD, I think is it a error because law, and on the forum it is write ISOPROPYL too : http://www.rush-poppers.org/rush-forum/10130.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anarkia777 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article tell that ISOPROPYL is less strenght than ISOBUTYL : http://www.poppershop.eu/fr/faq.html#VIII.1 --Anarkia777 (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RAM product answer me this mail about new formula : Hi, the "new" formula (since 2008) is isopropyl nitrite; the old one was isobutyl but that is now banned in the EU. Order at: www.junglejuice.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anarkia777 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC) [reply]

I have continued my research for have poppers in EU, and I have find Isobutyl, and Amyl, Rush make poppers with 3 molecule, and sell it dependly of country, for EU Rush sell Isopropyl, because other is prohibited, and for other country they sell ISOBUTYL and AMYL. A other brand Canadian JUNGKE JUICE make poppers with ISOBUTYL. FOr conclusions in EU seller sell only ISOPROPYL (prohibited since 2007), and other country can sell 2 other molecule (ISOBUTYL ans AMYL), and 2 other molecule but I don't know it.... --Anarkia777 (talk) 12:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicated Legality Section

This article has two sections titled Legality which contain nearly identical information. I attempted to rectify this by removing one of the sections, but the entry was restored and I was given a (presumably automated) warning about removing information. My suggestion is that someone with the ability to edit this and make it stick do so, unless it is Wikipedia's policy to include multiple sections with the same information and title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.9.128 (talk) 16:47, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion of poppers use and downplaying of risks

An editor who may have a COI with this subject has twice removed well sourced content noting the risks associated with this type of drug. [1] As the article stands now, it misrepresents a single study categorizing drug safety as the only source on the health risks noted in the opening paragraphs. This is outrageous. Freakshownerd (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As the editor in question, I reverted those changes on the grounds that they seem to differ from consensus on this article, and since they were made to the article lead, substantially changed the article tone. As such, I'd like to see consensus established for these changes on this talk page before such edits are made.
I personally believe the changes were not in line with Wikipedia policy, on the grounds that the given citations relied on very limited sources, and that the edit gave undue weight to issues already discussed in the article's Health issues section.
--me_and (talk) 14:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The citations were to AIDS Health Weekly, numerous scientific studies, the views of medical doctors who are experts in this field, and were reported in reliable secondary sources. If you object to those sources maybe you should take them to the appropriate noticeboard. Freakshownerd (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a problem with the sources; the problem with your last addition was that you cut-and-pasted large chunks of text from the sources. My understanding from reading through some .edu sources is that short terms risks are mostly related to lack of inhibition resulting in poor judgement, but long-term use risks are much more serious (damage to nervous system, etc). OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of FSN's contributions. If you look at the sources added to the lead (particularly problematic since, as noted, the lead follows the body) to support the changes [2] (sources 8-13) they are popular sources, many behind paywalls. Which ones are "scientific"? I didn't see any but I did look quickly. Irrespective, I do see a problem with the sources, particularly since they contradict the actual studies. This is a drug/medical article, the emphasis should be on pubmed-indexed journals which consistently find that poppers are relatively safe, but are associated with HIV infection and AIDS - because of their mutual connection with risky sex. It's noted that there was a possible association, but the research showed it was correlational, not causative. The AIDS-poppers link has been explored and it's not directly related. FSN knows this, it has been discussed on his talk page, so it's blatant POV-pushing at this point. This one is particularly egregious, with no indication that it is reliable or anything but a partisan site.
I don't know where the COI and advert claims are coming from - just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean there is a COI and I'd really like to see some evidence of this before even thinking about taking it seriously. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 16:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AIDS title

Can anyone think of a better name for the "AIDS" section? The current one implies there is a direct relationship, when it's correlational. Perhaps "correlation with HIV infection"? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 17:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, or "Association with AIDS epidemic". Or the entire section could be folded into the "Health issues" section, without its own subheading. MastCell Talk 17:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like the idea for a separate heading, for the very reason we're even having this conversation - it was a topic of intense interest, it's a false idea that's been bandied about for many years, and it allows direct linking to a section that quickly and thoroughly disarticulates it. I don't mind "Association with AIDS epidemic", I'll paste that in for now and see what happens. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 21:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A deceased editor of this article was a big campaigner off the AIDS and Poppers link. I suspect that there will be a lot less resistance to toning down the language than there used to be.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More in line with WP:MEDMOS

LiteratureGeek may have the best answer here, should this article, being medical-ish, be in line with MEDMOS? Is it already? I've got an official source for the poppers/viagra indication (PMID 11365402), shouldn't it go in a separate contraindications section?

I might be jumping the gun, lazily I haven't reviewed MEDMOS to see if it's already lined up. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 17:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't a huge amount of research on poppers or its chemical names on pubmed, so it may be difficult to get a fully comprehensive medical article but if contraindications, interactions can be found and sourced then I think adding in medical sections would be benefitial.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 20:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It would be tricky to follow WP:MEDMOS, because the term "poppers" applies specifically to recreational rather than pharmaceutical uses. Nitrates do have actual recognized indications (most typically in the form of nitroglycerin or nitroprusside for angina or hypertensive emergency), but poppers don't. I think that whatever format we follow for other recreational drugs makes sense here. MastCell Talk 20:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Auto-archive

Given this page's propensity to long, outdated conversations, does anyone have any objection to me setting up an auto-archive? --me_and (talk) 20:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a technical issue, you would need to ensure that all the sections have a valid date. It would probably also be a good idea to set up an appropriate archiving header pointing to the archives. I have no object to the set up, but I'm not really active, here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm archiving manually; if it's so not busy that people rarely end up clogging the talk page (starting comment was from November, 2008) there's not much point in setting up Misza. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 17:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WLU, I'm not sure I'm parsing that comment correctly. Are you saying there's no point setting up the auto-archive as the talk-page is not sufficiently active?
Thanks for clearing up the content that was clogging the place up so far, anyway. I can understand that! --me_and (talk) 13:31, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, that's it. If you set up an auto-archive, this would be a blank talk page 90% of the time you visited simply because new discussions are not frequent. This gets bursts of activity rather than the kind of sustained, long-term, intensive activity you see for Misza to be turned on (in my opinion anyway). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 17:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the parameters for Misza, it does leave conversations on the talk page to avoid it being "completely harvested"; it defaults to leaving at least five conversations on a talk page to avoid it getting completely blank. Given that, would you still rather I not set up Misza? --me_and (talk) 21:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, I didn't know that. I guess that's why my talk page never gets down to zero conversations. And here I thought Misza was buggy!
It sounds like you really want to set it up, and I really don't have that much objection. I don't think it's necessary, but there's not really an absolute reason to reject it. Go ahead if you really want :) WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 10:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all! I generally think getting computers to do automatable tasks is a Good Thing™, but if you/anyone else would rather it didn't run, I won't bother.
If I'm entirely honest, I wanted to set it up as I'd just discovered it and wanted to play with a new toy. I've now satisfied that itch on my own user talk page, so if you don't think it's necessary, I'll stop campaigning :) --me_and (talk) 10:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, I can't argue about either point - computers do dumb, repetitive things quite well and you have to screw up Misza's configs a couple times before figuring out how to do it right. Talk:William Dembski still needs a good purging if you wanted to practice there. I think it' be wasted on this talk page after the manual archive, but I'm sure there's others on wiki that could use it. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 11:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gross Citation Error!

"Initially poppers were considered as a hypothesis for the then-burgeoning AIDS epidemic, and the idea has persisted in large part due to the activities of AIDS denialists as a pseudoscientific rationalization for the presence of AIDS in homosexual males.[39]"

The cited page links to the following article: Does drug use cause AIDS?, published in Nature in 1993. But in fact shows that every incidence of AIDS occurred among the cohort of popper users which were all homosexuals (no heterosexual popper users were in the cohort). This entire wiki article should a) cite better, non-secondary sources and b) not rely on dubious secondary sources especially when the articles THEY cite do NOT refute (nor confirm) the idea that poppers may in fact cause AIDS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.119.205 (talk) 03:20, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another one, number 42: "In the analyses using lagged exposures, KS risk was associated with use of poppers 3–5 years prior [hazard ratio (HR)3 years prior=1.27, 95% CI (0.97–1.67), HR5 years prior=1.46 (1.01–2.13)]."

The article states: though a study of the use of poppers by HIV positive men found no association between the two.[42] NOT TRUE!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.119.205 (talk) 03:27, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The 1993 Lancet study "HIV-1 AND THE AETIOLOGY OF AIDS" (citation 44) - now that is a good one!

Er, Chao et al. (PMID 19108691) clearly states in its abstract: "These findings do not support a biological association between use of these substances [including poppers] and KS development in HIV- and HHV-8-coinfected homosexual men." Our text could be clearer, and I've tried to clarify it, but the study authors very clearly argued that their findings do not support a biological link between poppers and KS. MastCell Talk 18:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that Chao et al. is not an experiment at all, whereas the animal studies are direct experiments, it would by much more logical to state the the animal studies demonstrate a biological link (rather than merely "suggest an association") while the statistical study cannot, at all, confirm or deny a biological link between anything. Instead, it can only "not support a biological association." 96.253.119.205 (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This from the article - "A study that followed 715 gay men for eight and a half years published in the Lancet in 1993 rejected any causal relationship between AIDS and poppers.[45] Although the study did conclude an association between the use of poppers in the gay culture and contracting the HIV virus, it also concluded an association between anal sex and contracting the HIV virus." This can't be worded right?? Poppers may cause you to get an HIV infection but it doesn't cause AIDS - I am sorry but I thought HIV caused AIDS. I would think anything that caused you to get HIV would - ah who cares - Can someone explain if this is okay? or is the science tooo deep for us regular folks.159.105.81.31 (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article rejects a causal link between poppers and AIDS, but notes a statistical correlation (see correlation is not causation). Popper use is a marker for other high-risk activities, like unprotected anal sex, that do transmit HIV and thus can lead to the development of AIDS. That doesn't mean that poppers cause AIDS. There's a 100% statistical correlation between opening your car door and subsequently starting your car, but that doesn't mean that opening your car door starts the engine.

To be specific, the prevalence of popper use was apparently 88% in the HIV-positive group and 56% in the HIV-negative group. So popper use is statistically associated (perhaps - no p value is given) with HIV seropositivity, which makes sense since it's a marker of other high-risk behaviors. But 56% of the HIV-seronegative group used poppers, and none of them developed any opportunistic infections, which is evidence against any potent immunosuppressive effect of poppers. On the other hand, opportunistic infections developed only in the HIV-positive patients, which (combined with the extensive body of knowledge of the biology of HIV infection) is convincing evidence in support of the fact that HIV causes AIDS. MastCell Talk 16:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the statistics argument can go both ways - have to see the data for the whole study and that would probably be inconclusive. ( ie poppers may be a marker for high risk ... or high risk may be a marker for poppers.) Still have to wait to see if the 56% are just tougher.159.105.81.31 (talk) 20:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I explained it clearly. Popper use is correlated with high-risk behaviors like unprotected anal sex. The correlation isn't directional - one could just as easily say that unprotected anal sex is correlated with popper use. The point is that they cluster together statistically. If poppers caused (or were necessary for) AIDS/immunosuppression, then one would expect some of the HIV-negative popper users to develop opportunistic infections. None of them did. That's pretty strong evidence against a causal role of poppers, and strong evidence in support of a causal role for HIV.

In and of itself, it doesn't "prove" that HIV causes AIDS, or that poppers don't. Causality generally isn't proven by a single study - that's a canard fabricated (or promoted out of ignorance) by AIDS denialists. Incorporating this one epidemiologic study with the thousands of other pieces of published science on HIV, from the level of basic virology to population-level epidemiology, proves the case. A general tactic of AIDS denialists is to attack individual studies (usually on ignorant or scientifically illiterate grounds) rather than address the sum of available evidence. But I digress. MastCell Talk 22:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is the data for the study published anywhere? Frequency of use, etc, lenght of use, etc.... For any and/or all studies pertaining to this. 159.105.81.31 (talk) 13:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should be able to get the full text of the article at any library. If you want the raw data itself, you probably need to contact the study authors, or the British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, which conducted the research. MastCell Talk 19:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Actually it is almost impossible to find any of the "studies" anywhere. Here is the conclusion from footnote 40 however: Conclusion "We have shown in this brief review that although the systemic clearance of inhalant nitrites is rapid, its toxicological effects are not transient. Significant alterations in the expression of several cancer- and angiogenesis-related genes were observed in mouse liver after both acute and repeated in vivo exposure. In particular, VEGF mRNA and protein expression were significantly up-regulated. The tumor weight and volume of a VEGF-responsive tumor were significantly increased with repeated nitrite exposure. These results, summarized in Fig. 2, showed that the toxicity of inhalant nitrites might in part be mediated through alteration in the angiogenesis cascades" - it appears footnote 40 seems to think that poppers ain't good for mice's livers. Genetic problems in an animal study. Most of the footnotes reference the article - what's that supposed to give us for info? Like the footnotes that go somwhere other than wiki though - thanks for them. My suggestion for a better article would be to stop self-referencing the article as a reliable source, a link to the real "study" or its location would be more helpful.159.105.81.31 (talk) 14:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

http://poppers.cfsites.org/custom.php?pageid=8068 - this link summarizes several studies done relevant to poppers/AIDS/HIV/cancer. On their own poppers appear to be stimulators of cancer growth. More frequent use - what I wanted to know - multiples anything bad happening to you( per one study - ie if you want increase your chance of getting HIV, try a popper - if you want to encourage cancer, try a popper). This research has been available for some tin=me and appears to be continuing to this day, by real labs putting out real reports.159.105.81.31 (talk) 14:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC) The reason for the association between the use of poppers and HIV infection is that poppers relax smooth muscle which includes the cells lining the rectum. This means that poppers facilitate receptive anal intercourse which is a high-risk behavior. A mediational model would show the association between popper use and HIV infection mediated by receptive anal intercourse. I hope this helps the discussion.Citations include Mirvish & Haverkos, 1987; Ostrow, 1986; Fisher, DeLapp, Roggenbuck, & Brause 1992Afdgf (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)afdgf[reply]

A small change to the aphrodisiac section

I just took out the phrase "the head rush and euphoria are the result of increased heart rate" from the "aphrodisiac" section, which I think may have been an innocent error by a non-medical contributor. This isn't true (all three are caused by other effects of the drug such as vasodilation), and furthermore the reference to the Merck manual did not include any such claim. Finally the sentence itself is sort of out of place and doesn't contribute to the section (even if true, which it isn't). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.2.17.185 (talk) 17:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


"It was reported that this group reduced usage following the AIDS epidemic, while the drug-users had not."


"We hypothesize that in homosexual AIDS patients KS is caused by prolonged and repeated exposure to semen,nitrites or both agents which,under normal circumstances,in non-AIDS patients, are either absent or largely excluded from contact with endothelial targets in the vascular or lymphatic system. Both these agents are potent oxidising agents in biological systems (26,27) and indeed oxidation is essential for many of their biological properties and effects. For example,sperm maturation (and thus fertilisation) is a process which requires the oxidation of sperm nuclear sulphydryl groups to disulphides (28). All cells exhibit a thiol cycle and this cycle is a principal determinant of many cellular functions including mitotic rate (26). Thus nitrites and sperm, like all carcinogens and mitogens,by their oxidative nature may induce perturbation of the thiol cycle,and this effect may underlie the ample epidemiological evidence that semen and nitrites are alone the two factors highly correlated with the appearance of KS in homosexuals (29,30)." From The Perth Group — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.225.200.133 (talk) 17:40, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

what is missing here as that there is a direct correlation between the use of amyl nitrites (poppers) and AIDS "epidemic". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.225.200.133 (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Possible vandalism?

This edit looks suspicious to me, as it completely reverses the messaging in the health effects section without any change to the sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poppers&diff=588078169&oldid=588077608

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Poppers&oldid=589030924"