Talk:FIFA Ballon d'Or

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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 January 2011. The result of the discussion was keep.

comment on votes

A comment on the "Votes" column and resulting percentage. For Ballon d'Or voting in 2012, each ballot contained 5 points for 1st, 3 points for 2nd, and 1 point for 3rd -- a total of 9 points given out on every ballot. Therefore the maximum percentage points or vote that anyone could receive would be all 5-point votes from every voter, which would result in 55.5555...%. I believe there needs to be an additional column in the table to scale the % of votes received with respect to the maximum potential votes. For example Lionel Messi in 2012's 41.60% would then become 41.60/(5/9) = 74.88% of total possible points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.8.215.221 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don'T think ranking by country makes sense, especially when only listing 20% of the award, the men's player winner. -Koppapa (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - and can someone tell me why this page isn't combined with the the Fifa world player of the year award? The overall statistics on that page and this page is very misleading as they should be combined. They haven't separated out European Cup / Champion's League winners, just because it got rebranded 1992/1993. Similarly this should be combined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.168.244.128 (talk) 07:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This award is a merger of two prior awards (the Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year award), whereas the Champions League was a rebranding. We can't merge the histories of the two previous awards, so we create a new article. – Pee Jay 11:04, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Female winners

FIFA Ballon d'Or is the recieve only male players. Women continue to receive the FIFA World Player of the Year as FIFA Women's World Player of the Year.

You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh6KdRvmR5s / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPwihV66J0

and http://www.seethecup.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/messi_marta.jpg / http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06fZ2700uIaDQ/610x.jpg

Coach of the Year is the also diferent award! http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/coachoftheyear/index.html --Aca Srbin (talk) 13:34, 11 January 2011 (CET)

I think it would be a good idea to put the past winners of both Golden ball and FIFA World player here. Because all around the world it is understood as a continuation of these awards. That said, it would be good to see the past winners of the two awards here so that everyone understand why Messi won it in fact for the second consecutive year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.176.159.243 (talk) 15:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ballon d'Or

FIFA Ballon d'Or is not a separate prize, but only successor of Ballon d'Or.(France Football official website) And Messi is a three-time winner of the prize, as Platini and Kroif and Van Basten.(telegraph.co.uk)--46.241.244.33 (talk) 17:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Template:It Scusate se scrivo in italiano ma il mio inglese è pessimo. Sono fortemente contrario. In pratica il Pallone d'oro FIFA è una fusione di due diversi titoli (FIFA World Player of the Year e Pallone d'oro, il primo dato dalla FIFA il secondo da France Football). Questo titolo (FIFA Ballon d'or) è dato da FIFA + France Football. Per me è meglio distinguere le due voci. Google translate --Aleksander Šesták 21:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

UEFA Europa League is also a fusion of two different tournaments (UEFA cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup), but the list of winners is not divided.--46.241.215.110 (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, the UEFA Europa League is the UEFA Cup by a different name. The Intertoto Cup may have been "merged" into the UEFA Cup when the Europa League was created, but that is the reason why we have one list for winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League and one list for winners of the Intertoto Cup. – Pee Jay 20:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be great if someone could inserrt a public domain picture of the trophy, or the certificate if there isn't a trophy. Dick Kimball (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same award

Here you have a proof that it is the same award: http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/news/newsid=1981678/index.html?intcmp=newsreader_news_box_1 - the fifa official website claims Messi won the same prize for the fourth cosnecutive year.

Here, France Football: Lionel Messi a été sacré ce lundi soir Ballon d'Or 2012. L'attaquant du FC Barcelone, auteur de 91 buts sur l'année civile 2012, remporte le prestigieux trophée pour la quatrième fois de suite, un record absolu.

Here, Marca: http://www.marca.com/2013/01/07/futbol/1357585023.html

Here, goal.com: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2013/01/07/3654842/congratulations-messi-the-best-there-is-and-far-from

And finally, bbc, as an english representative: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20937775

Now, please, respect the official sources and do not make your own personal research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.45.226.223 (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was a decision made elsewhere that they're not the same award. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First reference simply states that Messi was "named the world’s best on four occasions". That doesn't state that the award is the same. I won't comment on the others. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why wont you comment on the others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.45.226.223 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly because it was discussed immediately above. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The award is not the same, the amount of times we have covered this is mind-blogging. The FIFA World Player of the Year was merged with the Ballon d'Or to create this award. There are documents in a thread somewhere from FIFA, proving this to be the case. There is clear consensus about this issue, any attempt to change it is futile, they are the same award. The media often get details wrong, we follow what the primary source says. NapHit (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Surely basic ease of use has to enter the equation here as well. It's irritating and frankly unnecessary to try and look up Ballon d'Or winners and have to use two separate articles rather than having them on a single page. Whether you can make some technical argument to justify it or not, what we have is a fairly poor solution to the problem and there are surely other alternatives - e.g. merging all three articles (including FIFA World Player of the Year) under "Ballon d'Or" and explaining that the modern award is the result of a merger of the two previous ones.

We've got an almost laughably complex arrangement at present. The "original" Ballon d'Or article cuts off at 2010; the FIFA World Player of the Year article has the absurd and confusing system of continuing for women's football, but only listing male winners up until 2010; and the actual Ballon d'Or article for the award everyone is talking about today (this one) is pretty much a stub that only covers three years. It might be technically correct, but it's utterly unusable. Bandanamerchant (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've not participated in this discussion before, but I've read through some of the discussions at WT:FOOTY, and I know that there is a consensus in the football-project to split it into three articles. However, today I'm reading in every newspapers in the world that Messi won the fourth consecutive Ballon D'or, while the Wikipedia article says he has won three in a row; shouldn't Wikipedia-articles reflect what reliable secondary sources says (not primary sources)? Consensus can change, and I believe we should now turn the table - are there any reliable third-party sources that support that it is different awards ? Mentoz86 (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this award isn't a proper merge... Ballon d'Or was getting much attention and FIFA tried to work it out with it's own award, being unsuccessful they just get the rights for Ballon d'Or and dropped their own... the trophy is exactly the same...--181.14.142.144 (talk) 08:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What you "believe" isn't relevant here. What is relevant is what the sources say, and all the reliable sources say that the two awards merged, with neither history being retained since a new award was created. The trophy may be the same, but I don't see how that makes any difference. – Pee Jay 12:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there actually a specific source which states that the history isn't retained? There are plenty of sources saying it's a merger, but I haven't seen any which specifically make that point about history (and it's the crucial point which leads to us having three articles to cover one subject). It seems fairly obvious that the intention was to retain some form of history, otherwise they wouldn't have kept the name/trophy in the first place. Bandanamerchant (talk) 11:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having checked FIFA's website for the official history of the award (see here), it gives primacy to the FIFA World Player of the Year award (as you would expect, it being a FIFA award), but it also lists the winners of the France Football Ballon d'Or. So perhaps it shares the history of both awards. But since it would make no sense to list the winners of all three awards on this one page (as two of them already had articles of their own), we only list achievements since the merger here. – Pee Jay 17:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think there is actually a great deal of sense in presenting the winners of all three awards on one page. The reason being that the page as it is now is virtually useless - virtually nobody wants to look up a list that only features the winners of the award back to 2010. We've essentially created a list of statistics (and that's all this page really consists of at present) which are of no real use to anyone. It's difficult to think of a single situation in which someone would want to look up the information on this page, but wouldn't want to know how it relates to the previous two awards. You could theoretically contain all the information in one table - you have two columns for winners down to 2010, then it merges into one. At least that way all of the information is contained in one place and we're not forcing literally everyone interested in the subject to look at two/three separate pages instead of one. There's far more to the debate than being technically "correct", usability and the purpose of the article in the first place are just as important. Bandanamerchant (talk) 22:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To revisit this one year on, as mentioned above FIFA include the history of both awards on the same page on the official FIFA Ballon d'Or website. If FIFA includes these awards on the same page then there is no reason, whatsoever, for continuing with the current multiple article system on Wikipedia - it deviates from the format used by the official primary source, it's a complete nonsense from a logical point of view, and it drastically reduces readability.

The argument might have made some sort of sense when it was still unclear how FIFA viewed the awards, but given they explicitly include them on the same page under "previous editions" that argument is now completely untenable. These articles should be merged as soon as possible, the only question is the format the new article should take (I would advocate the merged table outlined in my previous comment). Bandanamerchant (talk) 18:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your suggestion only makes sense if FIFA treats one of the precursor awards as being more important than the other. That would be a simple merger. However, if you're suggesting that we merge all three articles on the FIFA Ballon d'Or, Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year, I can only say that you must be off your rocker. As I said last year, the precursor awards have separate articles, so the post-merger article should have its own article too. – Pee Jay 20:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA covers the history of all three awards on one page, so given that precedent perhaps you could explain what, precisely, is so ridiculous about Wikipedia following the same format. We're not talking about articles that have pages and pages of text, both of the other articles largely consist of tables of statistics with a small amount of text in the intro. The argument that it "only makes sense if FIFA treats one of the precursor awards as being more important than the other" is completely arbitrary - it's perfectly possible to include the information from both awards in a neutral way without privileging one over the other.

However we don't even need to go that far yet. A start would be at the very least including the previous Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year winners in this article - which would go some way towards making it of some substantive value. Is there any actual, concrete reason to avoid doing that? Bandanamerchant (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the fact that the previous awards have their own articles is a pretty good place to start. Why don't we just provide links back to those articles with some explanatory text? – Pee Jay 22:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Award criteria

It's necessary to state that the award is not given based on a player's previous season, but a player's previous calendar year. These are two very different things in most sports and definitely in football (soccer). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.160.169 (talk) 03:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's only the case in leagues where the seasons and calendar years don't coincide. In some leagues, the season is played completely within the same calendar year, but I understand your point. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]