Talk:Video game crash of 1983

Accolade Case

"Although Accolade achieved a technical victory in one court case against Sega, challenging this control, even it ultimately yielded and signed the Sega licensing agreement."

I don't think this is an accurate description of Sega Enterprises v. Accolade. The case is a significant precedent, holding that disassembly of computer code can be fair use, if it meets the test established in the opinion. The case is still read in law schools for this purpose, although the DMCA anti-circumvention provision might alter the analysis under current law. Accolade's victory was neither insignificant nor merely "technical." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.201.52 (talk) 08:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Talk Page Archived

The page was growing too big, so I archived it. Continue old discussions below, all that. Thanks!  Dylanlip  (talk) 13:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Video game versus PCs

the PC 'market' was also flooded with crap, why did it not have a crash similar o videogames? lots of markets are flooded with crap, but it doesnt take down the whole industry, or does it? i dont really understand this princple..... would appreciate some explanation....

There was a crash in the PC market, for a time, many companies were putting out computers, but that crashed, with a few hanging on for a while. Companies failed because this was a bubble, they were just throwing stuff onto the market whether or not it was any good. Computers had the advantage of being more flexible then video game systems. You could write your own games, or type some in from a listing in a book or magazine. Computers also had the capacity for doing productive work like speadsheets or word processing.--RLent (talk) 17:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

There absolutely was a crash in the PC market; the Mattel Aquariuses and TI 99-4/As and Coleco Adamses that were made by toy companies being the most direct examples. These were pre-crash home computers. After the crash, the home computer industry shook out to just commodore, atari and apple if you were rich.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. In fact, I disagree with this being called the "North American video game crash". This is a console crash only. The two biggest game companies in the world, EA and Activision took off during this supposed crash. EA was expanding during this very year. The Commodore-64 was selling 2 million units a year during this era. By comparison, the NES, which supposedly pulled the industry out of the crash, only moved 2.5 million units in Japan during its first two years. Most of this perception that "games" crashed is due to writers at the time only labeling video game consoles at the time as "games business". It wasn't so much a crash as it was a shift to PCs.--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.190.215.2 (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

That's correct that it's the home console market (what is referred to as the Consumer Video Game Market) that crashed. However,in a related note the low end home computer market did go through it's own cyclic crash as well - just separately and earlier (1981-1983). Chiefly due to Jack Tramiel and Commodore's aggressive price war that cannibalized the market during that period (as is also covered in the Wall Street Journal and other business publications at the time). That is also precisely why that as the consumer video game market was crashing, some firms (like Activision) switched over to the home computer market for their games. Just coming out of it's crash, it was seen as a much stronger market for the future (and the Commodore 64 was certainly helping in those regards). --Marty Goldberg (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Modern Day Security Features

The concepts of such a control system remain in use on every major video game console produced today, even with fewer “cartridge-based” consoles on the market than in the 8/16-bit era. Replacing the security chips in most modern consoles are specially-encoded optical discs that cannot be copied by most users and can only be read by a particular console under normal circumstances.

Wouldn't that explain the reasons behind mod chips and bioses in today's console systems? Just my opinion, but I think it does. LReyome254 (talk) 17:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Did this begin the paradigm of "Parental cynicism of video games"

Is this a possible cause for parents to think video games were "time wasters" for kids, and that the games lacked the ability to teach kids "good skills and lessons"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.102.215 (talk) 11:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC) no, they thought that in the 1st place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.197.88 (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Inflation Rates

In the article it states that video games typically would cost $35 in 1982, which is equivalent to "(about $114.15 when adjusted for inflation)". This cannot be right if this figure denotes US dollars, since $35US roughly equals about $77US now. Anyone care to clarify? Shawn M. O'Hare (talk) 08:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. The wrong year was in the inflation calculator. Fixed. Squire55 (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have absolutely no idea what planet you are making this inflation comparison on... Is this our twin planet in that other galaxy? If those are valid statistics than they are utterly meaningless for a number of reasons. Clearly video games were expensive in 1983 because few people used or bought them as a relative comparison to now... So equal applications of inflation-adjusted costs are highly misleading. $100,000 then bought an equivalent $700,000 house now (at least in the New York Metropolitan region). A 1 bedroom apartment in NYC was only $300 or $400 per month. But then again if economic statistics were actual indicators of anything remotely reliable, economists would have been able to see the current economic depression years before it occurred...Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Video game crash in 2012?

I have been following the gaming scene since Super Mario Bros. came out on the old NES and I am wondering that there might be another video game crash sometime around Christmas 2012. The video games in the 2000s were simply atrocious and there are too many console systems to choose from. This is just like what the video gaming world was like before the "Crash of 1983." But this time, North America won't be affected by the crash. Japan and Europe are also going to be affected by this crash in a more globalized world. Right now, I believe that the video game industry will collapse sometime around December 21, 2012 (not because of the economic recession but because of the mediocre games being released in this day and age). GVnayR (talk) 03:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia article talk pages are not the place for this kind of wild speculation. Anyway, the overriding cause of the 1983 crash as agreed by all published experts on the topic was the oversaturation of the market with low-quality games that were quickly rushed to the market, mainly for the Atari 2600/VCS. Ultimately it boils down to two games: Pac-Man and E.T. The latter dealt the figurative death blow to the market because Atari was unable to recoup its disastrous losses after spending something like $25 million for the rights, plus millions more for promotion and manufacturing. I've never read anything from any expert on the subject that attributes the crash to "too many consoles" or some such nonsense - Atari was the market leader and considered the gold standard of videogames at the time and when Atari went down, so did the entire market. There have always been more than a few consoles on the market at any given time. Only two or three tend to survive the long-term. Were it not for all the garbage games being rushed to market, the horrible Pac-Man port, and finally the E.T. disaster, the industry would have quickly weathered the situation, recouping its losses with the 5200 and later the 7800. Laval (talk) 13:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

One fact that the article does not clearly address (again, due to too much original research and personal opinion infecting the article) is the fact that the crash happened almost solely due to factors affecting Atari and specifically games for their 2600 console, which was the market leader. Laval (talk) 13:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not an expert, but I've seen several documentaries on the Discovery channel (Rise of the Video Games to name just one) and one just the other night on CNBC that all state the same thing. Atari, as the market leader, caused the great game shakeup. That's not to say there weren't other players or even that Atari didn't continue on with other avenues, but on a macro-level the damage was done. Really, how many other consoles were there? The next avenue that opened up was the personal computer which allowed for other applications in addition to games. Mentor397 (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, December 21, 2012? Useight (talk) 15:29, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Useight, as they would say of GVnayR elsewhere on the internets, successful troll is successful :) TomorrowTime (talk) 12:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

GVnayR's statement has to be the best thing I've seen on a discussion article for some time haha. Good move.92.8.7.2 (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

"plethora"

Props to whoever used that word. Such a good, strong, noble, and sophisticated term. I applaud your enthusiasm and hope others follow your example.--ILoveSky (T | C) 00:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

8th generation is coming

When should we start including it in the article?24.113.207.119 (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Mario/Pacman?

"As a counterpoint, two of the most successful video game franchises were started in this period: Mario and Pac-Man."

Is this really a valid point to make? Pac-Man was primarily an arcade game at this point, which is a whole different market sector. And for Mario, it didn't really hit the home market properly until the NES a few years later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.111.160.21 (talk) 01:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Huh? Pac-Man was a major home console port at that point, starting in '82. Likewise you're confusing Mario Bros. with Super Mario Bros. The arcade Mario Bros. was ported to home consoles in '83. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I've removed it, it's just your average pointless counterpoint thrown in for the sake of bein contrary, and isn't even all that accurate. Mario's from 1981 (Donkey Kong) and didn't exactly become well-known until Super Mario Brothers in 1985. Meanwhile, a Pac-Man game was part of the disaster, so it's extremely disingenious to act like it succeeded in spite of it. Herr Gruber (talk) 01:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

While this has been solved I would like to point out there is an arcade version of Super Mario bros. That is all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 02:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Core crash reasons not explained

The entry says that the core reason of the crash were Atari 2600's Pac-Man and E.T. But it doesn't explain how two games brought down an entire industry. There are plenty of big, high profile games that fail today (and often put the developer out of business — like Lair by Factor 5). Holding Pac-Man and E.T. responsible seems like hyperbole. --76.79.70.18 (talk) 02:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The page is rightfully cautious in its claims, to prevent everyone from bringing in their personal theories.

However, you are correct PacMan/ET didn't kill the video game industry by themselves. At the time video games were a huge popular fad, and everyone ran out and bought Atari PacMan. The game wasn't very fun and the air started started coming out of the balloon. Meanwhile Atari totally over-estimated demand and flooded stores with millions of extra cartridges. (Think of The Simpsons' Disco Stu and his disco sales trend chart.) The end result was a fire-sale on excess inventory and Atari PacMan could be had for $2. Atarivideomusic (talk) 05:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Pac-Man was on Atari 2600 VCS in 1981, not as stated 1982. ET was on VCS in 1982 Both were not responsible for the video game crash, which happened actually in 1984. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.154.72.199 (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

That's not the case at all as far your claimed facts. Pac-Man was released for the VCS in March of 1982, not 1981. Likewise, the crash from from December 1982 through June of 1984. Those games certainly didn't kill the industry, but they did significantly add to Atari's woes and Atari was 80% of the home console industry at the time. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 04:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, why 'crash of 83'? The crash happened in 84, according to reading sources like Electronic Games, http://s357.photobucket.com/user/Alison123456789/media/01EGmarch1984_zpsc4fee11d.jpg.html?sort=6&o=4 http://s357.photobucket.com/user/Alison123456789/media/EGmarch1984_zpsbc61ac76.jpg.html?sort=6&o=5

No, that's not what your source says. It's talking about the shake out already underway not that it was just starting in 1984. In fact it even talks about Atari's financial difficulties in 1983 on the page you showed. The full spectrum of resources clearly shows it starting in December 1982, and gathering momentum throughout 1983, to come to it's finale in 1984.--Marty Goldberg (talk) 15:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Long-time impact.

Added based on offical sources:

he North American video game crash had two long-lasting results. The first result was that dominance in the home console market Eventually shifted from the United States to Japan (after the discontinuation of the Atari 7800). When the video game market recovered by Template:Vgy, Nintendo's NES and Atari's Atari 7800 were in fierce competition until the end of 1988. With some retailers having the 7800 selling out with NES's on the shelves. When Nintendo shipped 3 million units in 1987 Atari still managed to keep up the momentum peaking into 1988. Where at the end of 1988 Atari has lost it's competitive edge with the lowest sales drop in video game history dropping to less than 700,000 in 1989 and under less than 99,000 in 1990 according to official Atari sales documents. After Nintendo's later victory over Atari at the end of 1988, Nintendo became the dominate company over all in the U.S. until Sega's Mega Drive/Genesis in 1989, which later became the best selling home gaming console in North America during it's generation. A huge difference from the failure of it's earlier console, the Master System to compete with the Atari 7800 and the NES.

After the 7800, Atari had failed to make another console that would compete with it's rivals. No other American company would sell over a million home video game consoles until the 3DO in 1993, and none would become a major player in the industry until Microsoft's entry with the Xbox in 2001.

About the sources you are using to back up these edits: This article merely states that quantities at a Milwaukee Toys'R'Us are "probably" sold out. This article lacks any context that would allow it to be used to back up the statements you are trying to make with it. It can not be used to indicate any kind of sales information over a wider period of time, nor can it be used to indicate any sales trends nationally or for the North American region. It is doubtful that it could even be used to back up any sales data for the city of Milwaukee at that specific time period, as it lacks hard data and seems to be an anecdotal, off-the-cuff remark in an opinion column. As for the other two sources in the quoted section, Wikipedia articles - existent or nonexistent - can not be used as sources. Please see WP:SOURCE as to what constitutes a reliable, verifiable source. The way this quoted edit stands, I do not think it should be added to the article. 66.18.219.221 (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue is you looked only at one source instead of all, each with factual sales data that shows there being a close competitive scene. If you focus on one thing you won't see the whole picture. All the sources together make the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 19:52, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

About the other sources: Can you link to them here please? The only other one I could get to properly open was this one, and that information might be better suited for the E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (video game) article. 66.18.219.221 (talk) 20:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

So basically all the sources, even quoted in this very page, you are not pretending do not exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 20:21, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

That is not what I said. Please re-read my above comments for clarification. I could only get two of your sources to open in my browser. Can you post your additional sources here please? 66.18.219.221 (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

What is stopping you from clicking on the links above? You clearly are not trying here:

The <ref></ref> links you provided above do not work on this talk page, can you please post the original URLs? Also, there is no need to insult people, we are all here to help Wikipedia. 66.18.219.221 (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

About the four sources above (thanks Asher196 for making them appear on this talk page): I talked about this article above and why I think it can not be used to substantiate the claim made above. This source and this source appear to be Wikipedia articles that either do not exist or have been deleted. Wikipedia can not be used as a source. This PDF does contain some sales percentage data, particularly on page 25. This might be useful in another article, but I don't think it is a strong enough source to substantiate the above claim all by itself, as it only contains sales data from 1994 onward. The Sega Genesis was released in 1989 in North America, so a full five years of its life are unaccounted for. In my opinion, more sources would need to be found, and it doesn't belong here in this article anyway. 66.18.219.221 (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Adjustments

I had included corrections to dates and times (Including a late 1988 lead by the NES) as well as intial success from the 7800 and included Sega Mastersystem numbers as well.

Had also included other various sales figure sources as references to niche consoles after the action max. Included reference to Nuon tech as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 01:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Nintendo Test Market "Failure"

Once again, user:jakandsig has returned to wikipedia to push POV edits in a disruptive manner through inappropriate use of sources. This time, he has chosen to cherry-pick news articles (which he fails to even cite properly) to portray the Nintendo test market as a "failure." Now, I don't believe anyone, except maybe some direct Nintendo sources, attempt to portray the 1985 test market as a runaway success or as the first real stage of the video game industry revival, but to call it a failure contradicts the majority of sources. No, you cannot just pick the newspaper article you like and ignore the rest.

So anyway, here is a sampling of quotes from 1986 newspaper articles that mention the test market. This is by necessity incomplete based on the sources I have access to, but this is everything I could find in Newsbank and ProQuest:

Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) - Tuesday, January 14, 1986: "Nintendo , a Japanese company that attempted to introduce a new video-game machine over Christmas, failed miserably, retailers say." (This is the article that Jakandsig cites in the article)

The Seattle Times - Sunday, April 13, 1986: "With a quick-hit advertising campaign, they sold over 100,000 units in New York during Christmas. They're in the middle of a similarly successful campaign in Los Angeles at present. Seattle and most of the rest of the country will have to wait until late summer or early fall, but it looks like Nintendo 's new, improved home game system is going to be a tremendous success."

San Jose Mercury News (CA) - Monday, June 2, 1986: "As it does in Japan, the Sega machine faces an uphill battle against the Nintendo Entertainment System, which was a hit when introduced in New York City last Christmas."

The Seattle Times - Tuesday, June 3, 1986: "Nintendo , a six-year-old subsidiary of Japan's leading maker of electronic games Atari [sic], says it has already shipped 200,000 systems to dealers in some U.S. cities after first introducing the product last fall in New York, where 90 percent of the consoles were sold to consumers, leaving many retailers sold out before Christmas."

Wichita Eagle, The (KS) - Sunday, June 15, 1986: "WHY ARE retailers willing to give video games another shot? The most likely reason is the success that the Nintendo machine had in the New York area.

It did extremely well at Christmas," said Tom Brennan, audio-video manager at the Orange, N.J., outlet of Brick Church, an East Coast electronics chain. "We had a lot of people who even shipped it out of state."

So of all the newspapers that commented on the success or failure of the test launch in New York, one characterizes it as a failure and four characterize it as a success. There are also several more articles that I did not bother quoting here that mention the test market, but do not characterize it as a success or a failure. Of course, all it takes is a little common sense to realize the test was not a "failure": If it had been, Nintendo would have never launched the system anywhere else, nor would retailers like Toys R Us that agreed to stock the system in New York have agreed to carry it in other cities.

Now there is no question that some writers in the past have tried to over-state the "success" of the test market and portray it as the moment video games returned to prominence, and that would be equally as preposterous a claim to make. A "failure" however, is the inability to achieve a desired result. Nintendo wanted to prove that a new video game system could sell at retail, and they did that. Did they sell a lot? No. Did they succeed in bringing back the industry then and there? No. Did they slowly spread to other cities and continue to gain positive press coverage and excite demand until the video game industry posted gains in 1986? Absolutely, and the sources back it up. Cherry-picking the one negative report out of a sea of neutral and positive reports is as dishonest as it is inaccurate. Indrian (talk) 21:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

You are going by what people decided to say instead of what actually happened. Why do you think there were two test launches? Some of your articles launch numbers don't even add up unless you include both test launches. The person you seem to complain to wgungfu even used the same source in another article. You also don't even know what POV and using your standing to say a bunch of nonsense. in fact, the whole failure part was not even my quote it was your friends you you tried to talk to to say i was making bad edits. hurts doesn't it?

We got one report saying that retailers were not satisfied and you have already admitted Nintendo sold only around half their consoles. they also had another test launch/. Why do you think there was another test launch? Second, you added the SMS when that failed form the start and sold only 500,000 by 1988 as provided by the other article sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 22:26, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't have to "prove" anything; you are the one attempting to change the article. It really does not matter that the sources are all over the place in terms of total sales and anything else because you are trying to use a contemporary newspaper article to demonstrate that the test was a "failure" and I have shown that the majority contemporary newspaper articles labelled it a "success." Wikipedia relies on reliable sources for its information, and your attempts to interpret the sources are impermissible original research.

Also, I understand it must be frustrating to be unable to change articles to reflect your own personal view of the world, but you really need to stop with the childish personal attacks too. They really do not bother me, but they do insure that no one around here will take you seriously. Indrian (talk) 22:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not the one trying to change the view of the world. You are, including you in this very section stating that you could be wrong but using your sources as fact. You always act childish and run to random people lying about me doing POV's when you are the one who won't even read the articles. It's funny because the very people who you run to like wgungfu are the ones that basically support the article, so i guess he is on a POQ triad as well You are a pathetic little man.

Hopefully he will clear up your mistakes, as I have directed the thread to you. I also like how you don't actually answer anything on the talk page. it's kind of sad, like including the SMS. When it does not make any sense factually. All you do is change things to your liking and then when there are questions you will criticize others but you won't answer questions by other people, instead you claim they are trying to change the view to their liking. an idiot you are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 22:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

NES 19 million

The NES in North America did not sell 19 million by 1989. Sources include NA shipments of the SNES being 3 million in 1987 and already in the the article of this topic, seven million were sold by 1989. Sources: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19880409&id=klpWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mu8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4634,5262094 http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1917&dat=19880404&id=tHEhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TogFAAAAIBAJ&pg=995,823773 http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19881224&id=-jEyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RxQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6951,2635911 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 00:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, you are misquoting that Compute! article. Here is what it actually says: "But last year alone, Nintendo sold 7 million game consoles." The magazine is from 1989, so 1988 sales were 7 million by themselves. So that's 10 million for just 1987 and 1988. In 1990, the New York Times reported that Nintendo sold 9.2 million systems in North America in 1989 (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/08/business/waiting-for-the-zapping-of-nintendo.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm), so that brings us to over 19 million already without even factoring in 1986 sales, which should be between 1 and 2 million. So yes, the source that claims that by 1990, Nintendo had sold over 19 million consoles in the US is, in fact, correct based on the sources you and I have provided. This also lines up with Kent's figures as mentioned previously, which reaches the same result of around 21 million by 1990. The reason the yearly figures are different there is because he is reporting fiscal year sales, which ran for Nintendo at that time from September to August, rather than calendar year sales. Indrian (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

ok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakandsig (talk • contribs) 01:27, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

E.T. and Pac-Man

I am wondering why these games are mentioned. Neither of these games were ever for a long time considered even part of the crash and it was random guessing that put these two game software on the map in the first place. I am also fairly certain that there is no proof that E.t. and Pac-Man were financial failuires. The most I can see is that sells for the former slowed, but Pac-man continued to sell regardless.

I don't think random speculation that was never a thing into relatively recently should be allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leeroyhim (talk • contribs) 16:01, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Flooded console market

I believe that we should reword (before I expand) this section as "flooded console market" applies to the Next set of consoles and the 3D era as well. I also do not believe that "many had large third-party libraries" applies to systems like the Vector and Arcadia etc.

BTW, what does wikipedia use as a source for its generation line-up? Well using it, 3rd and 5th had just as many consoles. There are also a load of consoles current generation. Half the systems back then did not even succeed or have much of a library, so I think software would be the more valid reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leeroyhim (talk • contribs) 16:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:LEAD

Jakandsig insists on bloating the lead with excessive material about sales figures. What once stopped at "NES" now states: "The video-game industry was revitalized a few years later, mostly due to the initial success of the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) and Atari 7800, the former which was soft launched in New York City in late 1985 (then released nationwide in 1986) and the latter in 1984 (Then due to the sell of Atari was delayed until 1986) and both had become extremely popular in North America by 1987.[4][5] Both sold over 2 million units by 1988.[6][7]" This is seriously wrong. Reliable sources cited in the article overwhelmingly credit Nintendo with reviving the market, even though both the Sega Master System and Atari 7800 came out around the same time. Jakandsiq is engaging in a subtler form of original research than he has elsewhere, because his analysis of the sales figures cannot be used to contradict what reliable sources say, and he isn't even properly citing those numbers. Because these details are so obviously undue for the lead, I urge their immediate revert.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Atari 7800 and NES

I notice there is a lot of conflict with these two systems. But i would like to clarify a few things on both sides from what I am seeing in the view history tab.

1. First, I would like to mention that there are multiple sources, and i will provide them as they are asked, that do not show at all, that in 1985, the NES took the NA market by storm. it was a test launch, pure and simple. This is actually also put into slightly vague but more detail in the NES's own wikipedia page.

2.There are multiple sources where the big 3 systems of that time, mostly in NA but hey, that is what this article is about, that CLEARLY shows that the market embraced all 3 consoles equally with tons of praise. There was no advantage for either of the 3 consoles in 1986. It was an even market.

3.There are also mutliple sources, including sales figures and statements from both companies, that show that the 7800 and NES for the first couple years after launch, were both successful. While one can speculate that the NES policies locking out third-parties, as well as the Xegs and 2600 cannibalizing possibly the 7800's sales (the drop is pretty big when you look at the sales figures after 1988), it does not change the fact that the market was already restored by that time. There is also an article I replaced from another user called jak, with a source I feel really shows the LTD of consoles up until mid 1988 were proof enough of all that I am saying. This is also with less retailer support in the beginning in Ataris case with the model 7800.

4.I would like to expand on the history of the article, and would like to add in a new section called post crash and pre-crash so that I can input events leading up to the crash from magazine/newspaper scans, as well as actual statements reported in interviews and radio channels, to the Crash, and provide the same for after the crash. Although there are too many reverts of the whole page happening way too much for this to be possible at the moment.

Please excuse the shortened sentences as I am typing to on a portable device, and the auto-correct causes many issues that I am sure some of you know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leeroyhim (talk • contribs) 03:18, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you are saying here and agree that sources back up all you have stated (though with the current tensions here I would not recommend adding anything without appending said sources).

Just as a clarification, I believe the only thing I took issue with personally on this page was the characterization of the 1985 test launch as a "failure." I am well aware as you stated above that the test did not bring back the market by itself or show to the word that video games were back. I am also aware that Nintendo may have only sold half their stock (though sources do differ on that point), which would not be a great commercial showing. However, multiple sources will attest that Nintendo's goal was to demonstrate that in a tough market they could both convince retailers to carry the system and generate public interest. The company was proven right on both counts and took what they learned in New York and did a second, more commercially successful test in Los Angeles. If the test had been a "failure," then retailers like Toys R Us and Macy's that supported the New York test would have refused to carry it anywhere else and the NES may have never been heard from again. Indrian (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I would appreciate you adding better sources or a new section, but try not to bloat the lead further. Also, try to find what historians say rather than analyzing sales figures yourself. Regarding the test launch: Nintendo did sell half their inventory (about 50,000 units) at New York, and that was a success. New York was chosen because it was "the toughest market in America" to break into, and "a large percentage of the retailers that carried the NES decided to continue carrying it after the holidays." While "not a smash hit...it was enough to prove Yamauchi's point that videogames were not dead." (Steven L. Kent's Ultimate History of Videogames, pg. 293, 298).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, both Kent and Sheff (in Game Over) label it a success alongside multiple newspaper accounts in 1986 as listed above. Reliable sources disagree, however, on whether the system sold 50,000 or 90,000 units. Nintendo announced 90,000 at the time, but that may have been what retailers agreed to take rather than sell through. Indrian (talk) 06:27, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I am confused with what you are saying. I am not the one who edited the test launch being a failure, although technically test launches should not even matter in this case as if i recall the 7800 test launch was a success before the delay which got a lot of people mad. But it's a test launch. Now again, i am not the one who put that edit there. What I am saying is that these two consoles are equally responsible. They both had sold to millions, and both were highly anticipated. I am however trying to solve this issue before adding my extra 10,000 words of history from magazine ,newspaperscans, and interviews. It seems we are at least in some agreement.Leeroyhim (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I know you were not the one to add the info about the test launch being a failure, so no worries. I was just adding my two cents on how it should be characterized. The test launch was important not because it brought video games back, but because it brought several large retailers on board that may have avoided video games otherwise. It is no coincidence that Nintendo had better distribution in 1986 than Atari and Sega, even though, as you said, the press welcomed all three consoles equally. Indrian (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is why it's so surprising how close Atari managed to be with brand name alone. As i think even at launch Sega actually had more retailer support. Not to mention articles implying stock sold out. I figure we removed the failure link, but reword and keep my initial edit. Leeroyhim (talk) 15:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

That should work. Just do be sure to source it, not because I personally doubt you (I have read sources that agree with everything you have said on the talk page), but because the recent difficulties will probably make everyone a little bit jumpy about unsourced changes. Indrian (talk) 16:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I did not find the statement that you saw in the revert I made. Maybe you already removed it?Leeroyhim (talk) 16:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it was successfully removed earlier. I just wanted to make sure it did not come back. Indrian (talk) 16:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I still think this is too much detail for the lead: "The video-game industry was revitalized a few years later, mostly due to the initial success of the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) and Atari 7800, the former which was soft launched in New York City in late 1985 (then released nationwide in 1986) and the latter in 1984 (Then due to the sell of Atari was delayed until 1986) and both had become extremely popular in North America by 1987.[4][5] Both sold over 2 million units by 1988.[6][7]" I assume the details are there to try to make your case that 7800 was "as influential" as NES, without having a RS directly saying so.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:18, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I am not even sure if you are using the word influential in the context i am reading it in. The point of the edit from the sources, is these two who were competitors, both brought back million of players to the market, restored retailer confidence, and had systems going back to selling significant amounts. I am not entirely sure how this statement makes both the consoles as influential as each other. In fact, I would not call either of these consoles influential at all. But again, I have no idea what way you are stating.

If you for some reason mean influential in terms of impactual(I know that's not a word lol) to the revival of the crash, than that might be because you are leaning more toward one side. In 1986 all consoles were approached equally and the people brought these two consoles in droves that brought the industry back up. The Master System sold <100k, the other NEW consoles sold <20k.

If you mean in terms of the popularity the NES became eventually, with merchandise and being included in Movies and TV shows as the 2600 before it, that was way after the crash was over. NES peaked at the debatable period around end of 88 and much of 89, where most of its sales came from. And continued with strong sales in 1990 as well until the genesis finally gained steam in 1991.

But the more I read your other edits and this talk page, the more I think that you believe that this is decreasing the NES's importance. The NES was still important, It brought the industry above the $3billion it had before, and when the Genesis and TG16 came out that also went even higher.It was a popular device, but during the crash recovery, it was no "single-handed" job that a lot of people want to or have been told to believe. It's been wrong for a very long time, and I want to work to make every video game page (and computer page) on wikipedia accurate so that people will be able to state the actual happenings and it won't continue to look like a joke in a lot of other communities.Leeroyhim (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course you're trying to decrease the NES' importance, which is why you keep going on and on about how "there was equal love for all three consoles equally!" I have no agenda other than WP:RS and WP:LEAD guidelines. You misrepresented your edit in the edit summary, and there is no consensus for your reinserting Jakandsig's redlinked supposed primary sources and excessive detail in the lead.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Why did you, Leeroyhim, refer to this revision by Jakandsiq as "my version"? Are you operating both accounts?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I would agree that the detail is excessive for the lead, but I do think it is okay for most of it to be in the article. In the press, all three consoles were given equal treatment and were together taken as a sign the market was coming back. It is also true that Atari sold a decent number of 7800 systems. We can take this too far, however. The press might have treated them equally, but retailers and distributors heavily favored the NES. Also, the sales data we have shows that the NES did outsell the 7800 at a ratio of about 3-1 in 1986 and 1987 and by even more in 1988. Unfortunately, we have no good 2600jr. figures to demonstrate Atari's overall hardware picture, but as sources pretty consistently credit the company with a market share between 15% and 20% by the middle of 1988, they were clearly not on the level of Nintendo. In short, I think its fine to mention the NES, 7800, and SMS as bringing back market interest together, but we cannot forget that at the end of the day, the NES crushed the competition. I also think calling the 7800 "extremely popular" is going way to far when looking at the comparable sales and the market share data. Also saying that both systems sold over 2 million by 1988 is incredibly misleading, because that implies equal footing when Nintendo's sales were actually about double that (and that LA Times article specifically gives Atari's total hardware sales, so that is 7800 and 2600 together, not just the 7800 as the proposed version states). Indrian (talk) 02:08, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Indrian you are incorrect. The 2 million refers to 7800 sales. it literally matches the sales figures we got from Curts numbers, as by the end of that same year the 7800's LTD end up being past 3 million.

TheTimesAreAChanging, your date watching is bad. My revert was 3 reverts before the point you are mentioning. When i clearly mentioned i changed the link for one of the sources.

i noticed TheTimesAreAChanging reverted the previous consensus for some reason, when technically, the consensus was already met before Indrians incorrect claim of the 2 million atari units mentioned in the Latimes article was for more than the 7800's but was also the 2600's, which as I mentioned above, is wrong because it is literally in line with the sales figures. Either way, we are still on the talk page, so i have no problem waiting until we resolve this first. Especially since my browser is apparently breaking links at the moment. Leeroyhim (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

No, the LA Times article says that Atari has sold 2 million "game systems," not 2 million "7800 systems." The article also specifically mentions the 2600 as Atari's best-selling product (not in the current period, but over the life of Atari as a company), so the author is aware of it. Remember, Curt's figures are units sold by Atari to distributors and retailers, not sell through, so those numbers will not line up perfectly with retail sales. Atari had sold about 1.6 million units to retailers by the end of 1987, but some of those will have been sold through to consumers in early 1988, while a small number of them were also returned without being sold through, which Curt's figures also track. Its an apples and oranges problem to compare Curt's figures to the LA Times figures. Either way, it does not matter. Stating that Atari and Nintendo had both sold over two million systems by the middle of 1988 is a misleading statement that implies the companies were on equal footing when Nintendo had actually outsold Atari two to one by that point. Indrian (talk) 20:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the only time I'm aware of that they were on equal footing was in '86. However, after the '86 holiday season was over Nintendo was shown already far ahead of Atari Corp. and Sega. As far as news sources in '86, in the summer they were stating that the presence of consoles by Nintendo and Atari on the market (and the then forthcoming console by Sega) was pointing to a revived console industry. At that point there was no favoriting any console and all three (even Sega's yet to be shown Master System) were shown in this light. However as the national launches started through the fall, Nintendo was getting most of the coverage showing a clear favorite at least in the media. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Indrian, both these systems, even with the small numbers that were sold back, were at least over 2 million around that time no matter what source you use. It seems rather clear to me whether 2 million or 1 million is accurate, they had both shipped a significant amount to retailers from 1986-1988. If anything that proves the NES was not the Single'Handed reason the industry came "revived". The numbers are too high to come to that statement, no matter if NES outsold the 7800 3:1 by the end of 88 or 16:1 in 89. In fact, the most media coverage the NES got when showered with praise, along with Atari not really interacting with the press much, was in 1988.

I will agree that they were not on equal footing. since the sources I used NEVER said they were. But, the number were cloe enough for a time to at least be competitive at the time. It also seems silly that "widespread success" and "1985" are even in the same sentence because those test launches did not stop the majority of the media praising all 3 systems before the national launches. It's also misleading because it implies that the NES was an instant success, and reived the industry before the other two consoles were involved. which Goldberg has just stated is false.

So when you look at it that way, that statement makes no sense whatsoever. I think there should at least be a re-wording. I understand what both you two above this post are saying. But I see no reason to believe that the 7800 was not partially involved, given 1986 media before both launched nationwide, and the numbers we currently have. I think all we need to do is agree on what re-wording we should do. Because the current revision is inaccurate as of the time i am writing this.Leeroyhim (talk) 22:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

No, they were never close. In 1986, Nintendo sold a million or so systems, while Atari shipped roughly 286,000 (and sold slightly less since the figures we are relying on are not sell through). In 1987, it was 3 million versus 1.3 million. In 1988, 7 million versus 1.4 million. Atari was being outsold at a rate of three to one on hardware in its most competitive years and had less than one-third of Nintendo's market share. This is why there are no reliable sources that back a revisionist narrative that Atari competed closely. At the Summer 1986 CES, the press was happy to report favorably on all three systems and point towards a market revival, but once actual sales figures came in, the momentum was all Nintendo's. In your first post, you said all you wanted to do was say that the market revived in 1986 rather than during Nintendo's 1985 test launch, that all three consoles were given a fair shake in the press in 1986, and that the Atari 7800 experienced more success than many people realize. Instead of doing that you restored an edit from a disruptive editor that claimed Atari and Nintendo were neck-and-neck until 1988 and that Atari was just as influential as Nintendo in reviving the industry. The former would have been fine; the latter rewrites history and is not supported by any reliable sources. Indrian (talk) 02:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect, the disruptive poster reverted to MY edit. So i re-reverted to my edit. This has been pointed out in two different areas of wikipedia. (where I said multiple times I changed a link)

Second, I never said they were neck and neck, whether it IMPLIED it is another thing, which is why I said we should discuss a way to RE-WORD IT. My point was the that two systems reached millions of people and sold a significant amount of consoles in a short amount of time. Which is why I said there should be re-wording. 1.3 to 3 million is not that far of a gap let me be really clear.

The 7800, as i said, should be involved in some partial way since it factually had in the same short time, reached millions of consumers after a time where that was scene as something that may not happen again. If anything, I would say a quote likes this might work "In 1986, the NES and Atari 7800 had revitalize the industry by regaining retailer confidence and selling millions of consoles to consumers, which was previously though to have been unlikely after Video games were considered fads earlier. Although the 7800 contributed an important part, The NES had a greater impact, and ended up becoming the best selling console of its time with lots of media praise:

Now surely that can be reworded since I just typed that in 2 seconds, but something like that would be more accurate given the numbers we have. No one is saying Atari did what Nintendo did. That is nowhere to be found in this conversation.Leeroyhim (talk) 02:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

You have either confused yourself or just admitted you are a sock puppet, because Jakandsig added the language I am referring to on January 29, which was a day before your account existed. You then re-added it on February 1 with an edit summary saying it was your version even though another account added it. Anyway, your proposed language still will not do because there are to my knowledge no sources that indicate the 7800 revitalized the industry or had anything to do with restoring retailer confidence. You have to stick to what the sources say; this is pure original research. Indrian (talk) 02:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Lack of 1977 crash page.

I could have sworn there was one before was it deleted? The little mention it gets now has almost no information, and I want to make sure that when i create a new page it is not for something that already exists.

I also added the comparison between this and the current article in the main article page. Oops, forgot to credit myself. Tigersuperman (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It's mostly a myth anyways and the year is wrong. The industry was hit hard in '78, not '77 and it was as a result of the exploding popularity of handheld electronic games that season. Pong consoles did not leave en-masse in '77, in fact there were a significant amount of dedicated consoles released in '77 and no evidence of deep price cuts in ads for said consoles that year. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 19:56, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to say the same thing. I would also add that the programmable market never stopped growing through the entire period, though 1978 sales ended up being lower than projections due to the market shift. The only market that fell apart was the dedicated market, which failed as a result of new technology (handhelds on the low end and programmables on the high end) rather than a collapse in electronic games generally. As Marty alluded to, dedicated console sales actually increased in 1977 over the year before, although less than market projections. It was 1978 when this market collapsed. Indrian (talk) 20:03, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but 1977 was the start of it. It's like the Crash of 83, technically the Crash actually happened in 84, so i figured the reason people like you guys did not edit the date was because that's when it started. Tigersuperman (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

In the sense that figures came in below projections in 1977, you can certainly say the market was not up to expectations in 1977. However, 1978 was the year that the market fell apart. It was not a video game crash though, because the programmable system market continued to grow. It would be more properly be called the crash of the dedicated console market. Likewise it would not be fair to say that Atari (or Fairchild) "revived" the industry, because it was the new programmable technology that ended the dedicated market. It was a hardware transition, not a crash. Indrian (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Again, I said 1977 because I assumed that's when it started. which is why I assumed this page was called the crash of 83, when the crash was actually in 84. You are right about the dedicated market crashing, but the value of home consoles did not rebound until the end of 1978 and arguably 1979. If this page is called the crash of 83 because you think it started in 83 than that is a bit inaccurate.Tigersuperman (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Let me add that I can be very wrong here. So don't think I am saying that I am right about this 100% Tigersuperman (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Indrian Backtrack.

Indrian if you see this you backtracked the the previous page with this according to "view history"= Need some sources for that, and the stuff about the Channel F is not even true. Fairchild competed most closely to Atari in 1977 which was before the 1978 (yes '78) downturn. Reliable sources peg the revival to Space Invaders in 1980

However this only applied to the second part of my previous edit. Which is being discussed in a different part of this...Talk section? But what about the assistance part? In 1986 and 1987, the majority of the people were excited for games in general, You can see that here, but also a little over here, with a splash over here, and a dab over here, and here, and last here.

Now, I am fairly new and only just recently looked through the policies, but I think that the NES had some ""widespread"" assistance (that was a joke). I think the Crash was over by the points in the links above, and I think I have enough journalistic sources to at least have some people agree with it as per the rules of the website. I also assume those same rules are also in the Teahouse I have been invited to which I may check out later. I also am surprised to find the Xegs did well in one of those. Too bad we don't have sales numbers.

Actually why I am here I can ask if Vgchartz is a reliable source.Tigersuperman (talk) 22:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)